• Brendan Golledge
    135
    I have previously discussed the plausibility of a creator god in the post "A Functional Deism". I realized sometime later that if I just assume that my speculation is correct, then I can write a creation myth similar to past creation myths. This is useful from a psychological perspective, because the values of a culture are embedded in their stories and myths. So, in writing this, I am creating my own religion. The story:



    Before the beginning, there was God. Nothing was before God, and neither does God depend on anything else. It is difficult to say much about God, because he is before logic and before matter. God has no body, and he exists neither in time nor space. Yet in God, in the abstract, exists all else that could be.

    God decided that he is good, because otherwise, nothing else could be. So, he created a Great Garden. He spoke math into the void, and existence sprang into being. In this garden, all that could be springs into existence in turn of its own accord. God loves everything that is in his garden.

    In other stories, existence is a battle between good and evil. But this is not so. Humans made these stories from their own experience. God has no equal, so there is no one for him to do battle with. God is not vulnerable, so there is nothing that he needs to accomplish. He made the Great Garden to simply exist, and he made it exactly the way he liked on his first try.

    It is a feature of this garden that new forms are created from death and destruction. This is sad in a limited sense, because of the loss of what was good. But new comes, and it is often better than the old. Also, sitting outside of time, God sees all that ever was or will be forever before his eyes. Nothing is ever truly lost to him.

    There are living beings in this garden. Like everything else in the garden, they each bloom, dance, and wither in turn. The purpose of these beings is similar to the purpose of a flower. The gardener plants them because he believes that they are beautiful. It is not necessary that the flower understands its purpose.

    It is a lesser good for living beings to do what they can to exist. This is pleasing to God, because he likes existing things. But the goodness of God is incomparably greater, and living beings have no power to affect this in the slightest. Existence as a whole is also greater by far than any individual part of existence.

    God has no need of covenants, but it is still possible for living beings to commune with him, in a limited sense. When a being practices virtues that build his life up, and avoids vices that tear his life down, then he is participating in the immortality that existed before he was born. To explain further, abstracts ideas are immortal in the sense that they are true (or false) regardless of what time it is. Virtues, in particular, allow us to exist. So, to whatever degree a being instantiates a virtue in the particulars of his life, he is, in a certain sense, participating in the immortality of the abstraction. Also, God loves all that exists. So, doing what one can to exist while he can, and doing what he can to provide for his successors is pleasing to God. But do not worry one's self over doing more than one can, because it was not given to us to do everything that we might dream of. Also, when we see existence as it really is, and see beauty in that, then we see the world in small part the way that God sees it.

    The only way it is possible to rebel against God is to destroy one's self by one's own foolishness. But this is of little concern to God, because doing so will only cause you to be replaced sooner by those who will do his will better.




    The motive for writing this was dissatisfaction with the Christian religion. The confusion in the church(es) makes it difficult for me to believe that they are being guided by the Holy Spirit as Christians claim. Certain Bible passages do not make sense to me (such as how the lineages in the Old Testament are compatible with the scientific evidence for an old Earth), which makes it difficult for me to take the Bible as an infallible source of knowledge. Also, to be a Christian, I have to believe in a bunch of promises that I have no way of verifying. This creation myth teaches value in existence for its own sake without requiring (so far as I know) any faith in unscientific doctrine, or in unverifiable promises. Christians believe that there is both natural revelation and special revelation, but my religion is basically Christianity if you throw out all the special revelation. You know God by doing your best to infer from what he created.

    There is a psychological problem that people have, in that we'd like to believe that existence is good (otherwise being alive really sucks), but we have the experience of many bad things happening. It seems to me that different religions address this problem in different ways:
    • Christianity teaches hope for an unverifiable better future
    • Buddhism teaches detachment from desire
    • My religion teaches that reality is good as it is right now, but that the goodness of this existence might have little connection to our personal desires.

    In general, there is no difference between believing that you hold a value and actually holding that value (except in the case of self-deception, which is a whole other topic I'm not going to address at the moment). So, for instance, if I believe that chocolate is my favorite flavor of ice-cream, then my belief makes the belief true. Therefore, it ought to be possible, in general, to believe in any arbitrarily asserted value, and such a belief cannot be disproven, so long as it does not contradict sensory evidence or contain an internal contradiction.

    I think it is possible without internal contradiction to assert that existence as a whole is good. If I imagine the worst thing that could happen, it's something like a meteor striking the Earth and killing everything. Or what would be even worse would be if the laws of physics broke somehow and existence simply stopped existing. But nothingness doesn't seem to be morally evil; it just seems to be morally neutral. So, one can think of every positively existing thing as being good, and bad as being only the loss of good. And it doesn't seem possible to lose anything that you haven't been given first. For instance, pain is usually a sign of decreasing health. But you can't lose health that you don't already have.

    The only way I could imagine a world that would seem to be objectively evil would be that if God were actively malicious and sent everyone without exception to hell to be given excruciating torture forever with no possibility of relief. But I'm not aware of any evidence that this is the case, and in the natural world view, this would not be expected.
  • kindred
    138
    I think that is a better version of Christianity, where human beings are able to exist without any repercussions regarding the choices they make in their life and being able to choose whether to acknowledge such a God or not as you say he does not require any covenants.

    Your view of God in this respect is similar to mine, but with the added bonus of immortality granted to beings who express his will the best and who are as morally good as it is possible.

    However I do not subscribe to the creation myth or garden idea because I cannot infer purpose from god nor any motivation behind his reason for creating this world. It could be that initially god rolled the dice and created the universe where life may emerge due to intrinsic inevitability of the properties of physics, maths and matter such that life’s emergence was inevitable not just on this planet.

    This leads to many questions such as his relationship to his creation and creatures within it, as god himself is immortal does is this property also inherited by human beings who wish to attain immortality as well or is it just an exclusive property belonging to god only? If so then we are but the flicker of a candle in the wind compared to god’s eternal existence. If we have no intrinsic purpose to our existence but to enjoy it (and some don’t) then if we die never to be reborn then our creation was meaningless.
  • 180 Proof
    15.4k
    Yet in God, in the abstract, exists all else that could be.Brendan Golledge
    It makes more sense to me – cogently, parsimoniously, naturalistically – to substitute existence (or laws of nature (à la Laozi or Epicurus, Spinoza or Einstein)) for "God".
  • kindred
    138


    I assume that would mean that God is not separate from his creation. I guess the question is where did these laws of nature, physics etc come from or who created them if god and existence are equivalent.
  • 180 Proof
    15.4k
    Why assume existence "comes from" anything else or is "created"?
  • kindred
    138

    I was just asking…
    Uncreated, eternal existence is easier to digest logically than a created one, granted, as the latter would require how’s and why’s etc, where’s the former would not be prone to such questioning.

    Indeed the uncreated existence (laws of nature) can be seen as God in some ways in the way that Einstein and Spinoza conceived God for example, but another question that comes to mind is if these laws of nature are eternal could it not yield a god in the way some monotheistic religions describe it as? After all in this type of eternal existence some sort of omnipotence could arise…
  • 180 Proof
    15.4k
    Yes, I don't see why 'Spinoza's God' (i.e. natura naturans) could not have produced – evolved-developed within the constraints of its 'physical laws' – superhuman beings (with technoscientific mastery (perhaps several orders of magnitude more advanced than our own today (re: Clarke's Third Law)) which h. sapiens have worshipped – superstitiously misrecognized – as "gods".
  • Brendan Golledge
    135
    My idea of the creator God comes from cosmological arguments. That means by definition, whatever exists without being caused is God. So, if the laws of physics are eternal and simply exist without cause, then they are God. Even if that were the case, that still leaves the unanswered question of how all the matter got instantiated (because Mathematical laws can exist without material instantiation). I heard Carl Jung talk once about the likelihood that God is unconscious. I didn't like that idea, but if it were true, I can see no difference between an unconscious creator God and the laws of physics.

    I've heard arguments that I think are convincing that the scientific method was developed in the first place because people believed there was an intelligent creator God, and that therefore nature was rational. Math is a kind of language, and Genesis says that God created by speaking, so at the highest abstract level, Genesis appears to be true in this sense. Even if none of the rest of it is true, this points towards the idea of a creator God as being the best model of reality that people had yet come up with, because it bore fruit.

    I realize that this is speculative, but I'm not aware that anyone could prove that this story did not happen. It is a convenient scaffold for a philosophical viewpoint.
  • Brendan Golledge
    135
    I think that is a better version of Christianity, where human beings are able to exist without any repercussions regarding the choices they make in their life and being able to choose whether to acknowledge such a God or not as you say he does not require any covenants.

    Your view of God in this respect is similar to mine, but with the added bonus of immortality granted to beings who express his will the best and who are as morally good as it is possible.

    However I do not subscribe to the creation myth or garden idea because I cannot infer purpose from god nor any motivation behind his reason for creating this world. It could be that initially god rolled the dice and created the universe where life may emerge due to intrinsic inevitability of the properties of physics, maths and matter such that life’s emergence was inevitable not just on this planet.

    This leads to many questions such as his relationship to his creation and creatures within it, as god himself is immortal does is this property also inherited by human beings who wish to attain immortality as well or is it just an exclusive property belonging to god only? If so then we are but the flicker of a candle in the wind compared to god’s eternal existence. If we have no intrinsic purpose to our existence but to enjoy it (and some don’t) then if we die never to be reborn then our creation was meaningless.
    kindred

    I didn't imagine that people become immortal in the Christian sense. The particulars of our minds and bodies do not become immortal (so far as I know). My idea was that abstract ideas (such as perhaps the virtues of patience, perseverance, or temperance) are immortal, so that in-so-far as we practice these virtues, we are participating in the life of immortal virtues. So, it is not that individual humans actually live forever, but that while they are alive, they become like things that are immortal. I think of this less like hope in some unverifiable paradise, than as another way of seeing the world as it actually exists right now. I think in the case of virtues, one man's charity does not interfere with another man's charity, and one man's temperance does not interfere with another man's temperance. But one man's greed would interfere with another man's greed. So it seems to me that the virtues are virtually the same for everyone, but the vices are all individual. So, the virtue I practice is in principle the same as the virtues that were practices thousands of years ago, and are also the same as the virtues that might be practiced thousands of years in the future. That is the sense in which I participate in the life of the immortal. I think in a definitional sense, I define virtues as any positive habit that builds one's life up (the easiest to think of could be diet and exercise), whereas a vice is something that tears your life down (like smoking, because it hurts your health and your wallet).

    The idea in this creation myth is that since we can't infer a utilitarian purpose for things, perhaps those things exist for their own sake. That is the story behind this creation myth. And in the story, the laws of physics are set up precisely so that stars, life, and the rest, will spontaneously arise. The whole point of the story is to let you interpret meaning in the world as it actually exists right now.


    Now to address your last paragraph. I don't think humans are immortal, because it appears that our existence is dependent on the arrangement of matter in our bodies, so that there is no reason to believe that we continue to exist after the matter takes a different form. So then, yes, I think it is likely that we are a flicker of a candle in the wind compared to God's existence. It is normal, I think, to imagine that our lives are meaningless if they are temporary, since we come from a culturally Christian background that teaches an afterlife. As I discussed after the creation myth, however, whatever you are genuinely able to believe with respect to values becomes true, at least to you. I have often thought in my life before whether it's possible for me to do anything that's not in vain, and eventually I came up with the answer, "If there's a moment in which I wouldn't wish anything to be different, or even for the moment to last longer, then it is worth it, at least to me in that moment" That seems to be true, by definition, isn't it? Whatever I find to be worth it and meaningful, IS worth it and meaningful to me. If I imagine that simply existing as I am for a time is meaningful, then I am content. And the point of this creation myth is not that we exist for our own pleasure, but that we exist for God's pleasure (I suppose this retains that element of Christian mythology that meaning is derived from God). As it said, we are like flowers. "It is not necessary that the flower understands its purpose." I do think there is an argument to be made that a creator God's opinion about the purpose of existence is more valid than anyone else's. If some random Joe makes a widget, that Joe has more authority than anyone else to say what he made it for, even if somebody uses it for a different purpose. That doesn't mean that we have to respect God's wishes for the purpose of creation, but I can't think of anyone else who can more convincingly come up with a different purpose. This God is truly omnipotent and immovable in the sense that his purpose is for things to exist for their own sake, so that it's literally impossible for humans to thwart his purpose no matter what they do. His will IS done. There is no conflict to God.
  • Gnomon
    3.8k
    Before the beginning, there was God. Nothing was before God, and neither does God depend on anything else. It is difficult to say much about God, because he is before logic and before matter. God has no body, and he exists neither in time nor space. Yet in God, in the abstract, exists all else that could be.Brendan Golledge
    I don't view Deism*1 as a religion, but simply a philosophical worldview that attempts to explain the contingent existence of our physical world, and its intelligent creatures, without resorting to magical thinking, or by putting words in the mouth of an anthropomorphic fascist-father-figure in the sky.

    Several years ago, I thought about writing a Deist Creation Myth that is consistent with modern science. But, unlike Spinoza in the 17th century, I couldn't just assume that our world (Natura sive Deus) is self-existent, because we now have evidence for a "big bang" beginning of space-time & matter-energy. And, since the bang did not instantly fizzle out like fireworks, I had to account for the Cause & Laws that reveal themselves in progressive Evolution, over far more than 6000 years. But I also could not give any credence to the pre-scientific scriptural myths of Judeo-Christian religions. So, my myth had to include a plausible First Cause & Law-Giver, that didn't resort to miracles to fix human problems. I guess you can see that it would have to be a provisional Deist myth instead of an absolute Theist Faith.

    My approach is somewhat different than yours, in part because I can't imagine what an eternal-infinite "God" might do or think. As you said, "It is difficult to say much about God, because he is before logic and before matter. God has no body, and he exists neither in time nor space". So, the story only gives a cursory background, and focuses on the conditions related to the "birth" of our world. The rest. as they say, is history. However, since Intelligent beings, such as the posters on this forum, have emerged from eons of Cosmic evolution, I must assume that the anonymous First Cause must also be Intelligent & Intentional, instead of an infinite chain of rambling stumbling Chaotic un-aimed accidents.

    In the essay linked below*2, I coined some new terminology, such as In-Form-Action, because our current language has no way to express the novel notion of Energy as a Causal program. In my blog, I now spell it EnFormAction. My neologisms, and other unorthodox terminology, are defined in the Blog Glossary*3. Do you see any commonality or overlap between your myth and mine? :smile:


    *1. Deism :
    An Enlightenment era response to the Roman Catholic version of Theism, in which the supernatural deity interacts and intervenes with humans via visions & miracles, and rules his people through a human dictator. Deists rejected most of the supernatural stuff, but retained an essential role for a First Cause creator, who must be respected as the quintessence of our world, but not worshipped like an imperial tyrant. The point of Deism is not to seek salvation, but merely understanding.
    https://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page12.html

    *2. Intelligent Evolution :
    A 21st Century Creation Myth
    https://gnomon.enformationism.info/Essays/Intelligent%20Evolution%20Essay_Prego_120106.pdf
    Note --- Yes, the essay agrees with Intelligent Design theory, except in the designation of the designer.

    *3. BothAnd Blog Glossary :
    Since they are based on an unconventional worldview, many traditional terms are used in unusual contexts, and some new terminology has been coined in order to convey their inter-connected meanings as clearly as possible.
    https://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page2.html
  • 180 Proof
    15.4k
    Before the beginning, there was God.Brendan Golledge
    "Before the beginning" = north of the north pole :roll:

    Nothing was before God, and neither does God depend on anything else.
    Again, it makes more sense – cogently, parsimoniously, naturalistically – to substitute existence (or laws of nature (à la Laozi or Epicurus, Spinoza or Einstein)) for "God".

    Fwiw, my own No Creator Myth, etc ...
    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/569517 (further links included)

    How is it that "creator" is not merely an unwarranted anthropomorphization / personification of chance? Or that cosmos is not one of countless phase transitions of chaos? :chin:

    To infer 'intentional agency' from current cosmology is, at best, unsound (i.e. :sparkle: -of-the-gaps).
  • Brendan Golledge
    135


    "Before the beginning" is not actually an arbitrary phrase. The matter we are familiar with only acts after it's first acted upon. So, it follows that if there was a first cause, it can't be anything at all like the matter we are familiar with. So, that leads to the idea that the first cause does not exist within time and space like matter does. It is a very traditional Christian idea that God exists outside of time. The Nicene Creed even says that the Son was begotten from the Father before all ages. So, the idea of God existing before time is an old one that has made sense to people in the past. Also, math appears to be true regardless of what time it is, so, it sounds reasonable to say that math might still have been true before the Big Bang. So, there is at least one thing we are already familiar with that has its existence independently of time.

    I read the essay from Gnomon about a deistic God. I guess I don't have much to say, because most of it sounds plausible. The main thing I noticed that I might disagree with is the analogy of creation being like an egg or a fetus. Based on what I discussed immediately above, we have good reason to think that a creator god must be utterly unlike anything that we've ever experienced. So, it makes more sense as an analogy to think of existence as a creation than as a birth, because if it were a birth, that would seem to imply that we were the same type of thing as God. So, I like the traditional Jewish/Christian analogy for existence as creation better.

    I haven't spent much time thinking about pandeism before. Here's what I thought of in a couple minutes. Part of the point of this post was to imbed a moral foundation within the creation myth. Your creation myth (180 Proof) was very short, so I don't think it did that much. I suppose if everything is God, then that means that everything is holy. I suppose that's pointing in a similar direction to what I was trying to point at in my story, that everything is good for its own sake. I think the main difference would be that in the deist world-view, God is eternal and still exists separately from his creation after it has been created, whereas in the pandeist view, there is nothing outside of "creation". It seems to me that since math is eternal and abstract and seems to exist independently of matter, that the deist creator god fits together more nicely with mathematics than the pandeist god. The creator god also points more towards the existence of a supernatural or otherworldliness, whereas pandeism would not seem to do this. Since it's all speculative, I suppose the most that could be said of one conception rather than another is that it's more or less plausible or has different moral implications.

    Again, it makes more sense – cogently, parsimoniously, naturalistically – to substitute existence (or laws of nature (à la Laozi or Epicurus, Spinoza or Einstein)) for "God".180 Proof
    I briefly discussed in one of my earlier replies that I can't imagine a difference between an unconscious creator god and the laws of physics. They would seem to me to basically be the same thing. So, I wonder if you're taking more offense at the word, "god" than with the idea itself.
  • 180 Proof
    15.4k
    Pandeism (as I've explicitly pointed out) means that 'the deity' BECAME the universe and therefore 'the deity' does not exist while the universe exists. "Everything is holy" is either animism or pantheism, not pandeism. Your supernatural-bias blinds you to what I've actually written – unless you haven't even read or comprehended my posts (& links).
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