The images come from similar parts of your brain that process light. Think about this. Your eyes are simply a lens in which light floods through. Your brain interprets that light, adds intention, dimensionality, and a sense of reality to it. Then 'you' see it. Dreams are a memory of past visual events being sorted through. A person born blind doesn't visually dream, because they have no memory of anything visual.
And by blind, I mean completely blind, not merely legally blind.

Of course, its a memory, not a 'live stream'. So it can be experienced in a hazy or unrealistic matter. And we have the gift to take experiences in our memory and shift them around into 'potentials'. So I can imagine a horse with a horn on its head. This is the source of creativity and problem solving. To fix a problem you don't know the answer to, you often need to piece things together in ways that you haven't observed before.

yet one sees it in his mind vividly — Corvus

Maybe you do, but there is no vivid in my dreams. I strive for information, and find it lacking in dreams, although I often don't notice. For instance, I cannot read anything, because it is an attempt to acquire information that isn't there, and making up fiction is unacceptable.

Maybe others dream differently and more vividly, and have far less trouble accepting made-up stories as fact.

The mind seems to create a sort of subconscious model of the world from either sensory or memory sources, but both present that model to the conscious parts, active both when awake and in dreams. Think of it as a sort of shared section running different input subroutines.


You seem to say largely the same thing as I just attempted.

I even got an injury from a dream of fighting an orca, something to add to my list of injuries from animals that sound hostile but were not actually.

Interesting posts and points from you all. I think what Corvus had in mind is very important, and I agree with him that while dreaming, we often see people and places that are not known to us. But why does this happen? NoAxioms states that we can't attempt to acquire information that is not there (in the dreams). Honestly, I think that the way we could approach the complex world of dreams (and nightmares!) is using a bit of imagination rather than explaining or arguing whether the gold spoon exists in the non-existent world or not. My basic point: I believe the two worlds (dreamlike and real) exist.

The people and objects located in them are accessories, and they pass through, but without altering the order. We have to keep in mind an important feature, and it is the fact that I exist in both worlds. Therefore, if I am conscious of myself in dreams and reality, they are existent worlds to me. Dreams are just more complex and blurred, but plausible. It is not possible to see a clock melting like in Dali's painting. But who am I to deny the possibility of this in my dreams? If clocks melt in my dreams, this is at least real in one part of my two worlds.

Dreams are a memory of past visual events being sorted through. A person born blind doesn't visually dream, because they have no memory of anything visual.
And by blind, I mean completely blind, not merely legally blind. — Philosophim

Interesting point. But if the images in dreams are from the memories, why some folks see images that they have never come across in their lives, or meet people they cannot recognise and never met, or go to the places they have never been in their whole lives before?

How about when we perceive silence, emptiness in space or time passing? The objects of our perception actually don't exist in material level. However, we still perceive them.

I agree. Time and space are even experienced in dreams. I usually have a frequent dream where I am in a bar with a classmate of mine. This bar no longer exists, and I hadn't seen that girl for years. When I dream about this, I am aware that I am in the past. I am experiencing memories and a sweet sense of nostalgia. Time could not exist on a material level, but it is an important feature of what we consider real and dreams. But my point is that if I dream about the past, this is not necessarily leading me to a deception. So, we have to be careful of using these frames as a notion of reality.

For instance, I cannot read anything, because it is an attempt to acquire information that isn't there, and making up fiction is unacceptable. — noAxioms

I also cannot read in my dreams. I assume I'm simply lacking in imagination, cognitive ability, or a combination of the two. In my life, I've had dozens of dreams with tornados. (I've had more dreams with snakes.) I've always wanted to see a tornado, so am always happy in these dreams. Then I wake up to disappointment.

Aftet having had so many of these dreams, my dream-self began to realize it was a dream, and not get hopeful. It dawned on me that I can't read in my dreams. Now, whenever I see a tornado, I look for something to read. If I can't make out what it says, I'm dreaming, and don't get excited about the tornado.

Unfortunately, on several occasions, I've managed to trick myself into thinking I could read. When I woke up, disappointed again, I realized I wasn't reading anything. Just gibberish, sometimes more weird scribbles than actual letters.

I'm also very annoyed that, on several occasions, when I realized I was dreaming, it occured to me that I can do anything I want, but I really couldn't. I try to fly, but can't get going. So I wake up doubly annoyed.

A person born blind doesn't visually dream, because they have no memory of anything visual. — Philosophim

Makes you wonder what Helen Keller dreams were like, especially before communication was established. Dreams of a person with only memory of touch and such for reference experience.

while dreaming, we often see people and places that are not known to us — javi2541997

My experience is that most characters are unknown to me, but I already know that in the dream, and I already know the people that I know, meaning that I don't look at people and suddenly recognize them. I don't really remember looking at people at all because for the most part, it doesn't work. It may be different for other people, especially the people-people that are good at remembering names and faces the way I am not. My dreams are pretty abstract, and I can sometimes fly without aid in them, and other times I cannot.

I believe the two worlds (dreamlike and real) exist. — javi2541997

I would agree, but I use a definition of 'exists' that allows both to exist. Others using a different definition would perhaps say that the former does not exist, nor maybe neither.

But if the images in dreams are from the memories, why some folks see images that they have never come across in their lives — Corvus

The unrecognized things usually still make some sort of sense. They're the sort of thing that we might find ourselves experiencing, especially if you lead a life that often experiences new places. One would expect to dream of experiencing yet more new things.

when we perceive silence, emptiness in space — Corvus

Funny, but I have little recall of explicit dreams of sounds. Sound carries so much information to me, that for it to be in my dream, it would have to convey something that it cannot, so more often than not, my dreams don't have a significant soundtrack.
Not sure how time passage is directly perceived. They've put people in sensory deprivation environments, and then ask them later how long they had been in there, and almost all answer a far larger amount of time than what really passed. This says that the sense of time passage is mostly due to external senses.

I've always wanted to see a tornado, so am always happy in these dreams. — Patterner

I've had two real ones come right at me (same place, same path, 16 years apart) but I never saw them, being bunkered. I have died a few times doing violent things, but I don't recall a tornado being one of them. I had almost hourly nightmares when I was about 6, and those where repetitive, predictable, and utterly horrible. I occasionally do reruns of old remembered dreams, but you could keep the nightmare
ones, each of which I had named.

Aftet having had so many of these dreams, my dream-self began to realize it was a dream, and not get hopeful. It dawned on me that I can't read in my dreams. Now, whenever I see a tornado, I look for something to read. — Patterner

This doesn't always work for me. If I'm deep in, I'm too stupid to run tests to see if I'm dreaming (pinch me). If I think of the test, I already know the answer. Flying is pretty easy if you know you're dreaming, but not so easy if you don't know.

The weirdest ones are experiences that put memories in your head that are not marked 'dream'. Maybe days later you suddenly realize that it was just a dream and say your car wasn't actually totaled.

I had almost hourly nightmares when I was about 6, and those where repetitive, predictable, and utterly horrible. I occasionally do reruns of old remembered dreams, but you could keep the nightmare ones, each of which I had named. — noAxioms

Sheesh. I've had a couple recurring dreams. Rather bland, but kind of nice to visit on occasion. Not sure I've ever had what would qualify as an actual nightmare.

Flying is pretty easy if you know you're dreaming, but not so easy if you don't know. — noAxioms

I always know how, remembering how I've managed in past dreams. Just freestyle swimming through the air. But I can't make it work when I know I'm dreaming and should be able to. Just as well, I suppose. Only very rarely have my flying dreams been satisfactory. I'm always running into power lines, no matter how high I go. I could be a mile up, and still hitting them. :rofl:

The weirdest ones are experiences that put memories in your head that are not marked 'dream'. Maybe days later you suddenly realize that it was just a dream and say your car wasn't actually totaled. — noAxioms

That's fascinating. I don't remember that happening. I think there's a scifi/fantasy story with some aliens that communicate by implanting memories into your mind. You remember a conversation that didn't actually happen, but you now have the information they wanted to give you.

So where do the images come from? — Corvus

Our empathic ability. It's the ability to mentally construct, visualize, and actually feel things that we are not directly exposed to. So if you know what it feels like to see things, then you probably have the ability to evoke the same or similar feeling when you don't see anything. The same areas in the brain are activated when you see something and when you imagine seeing it.

Interesting point. But if the images in dreams are from the memories, why some folks see images that they have never come across in their lives, or meet people they cannot recognise and never met, or go to the places they have never been in their whole lives before? — Corvus

Because the human mind has the capability for creativity. Creativity often comes about by taking bits and pieces that belong to one thing, and then applying them to another. Think of a unicorn for example. Its a horse with a horn on its head. Now make a duocorn. That's a horse with two horns on its head. Keep going. That's why you can dream of things you've never seen before.

Think of a unicorn for example. Its a horse with a horn on its head. Now make a duocorn. That's a horse with two horns on its head. Keep going. That's why you can dream of things you've never seen before. — Philosophim

Well, in your example, we could agree that we saw the unicorn before because it is a combination of two previous existent elements in our world. A horse and unicorn. I think it would be interesting to dream something you didn't see before and our creativity cannot process.

Interesting point. But if the images in dreams are from the memories, why some folks see images that they have never come across in their lives, or meet people they cannot recognise and never met, or go to the places they have never been in their whole lives before?

One explanation for this is that the whole image in a dream is not an exact image from memory. That image could be amalgamation of several images. For example, you subconsciously take different parts of a face from several people that you know and blend it all up, resulting with a new face that you've never seen before.

One explanation for this is that the whole image in a dream is not an exact image from memory. That image could be amalgamation of several images. For example, you subconsciously take different parts of a face from several people that you know and blend it all up, resulting with a new face that you've never seen before. — night912

Can different images be amalgamated into totally different another image? Who do you get if you amalgamate images of Elon Musk with Bill Gates, Taylor Swift and Madonna? Why would you do that?

Who do you get if you amalgamate images of Elon Musk with Bill Gates.................................Why would you do that? — Corvus

To scare children on Halloween!?



https://openart.ai/discovery/sd-1006000370197221428

I believe the two worlds (dreamlike and real) exist. — javi2541997

But this is not true with respect to consensus reality. Also the physical world, which everybody would agree "exists" because it is self-evident, has a relative (illusory/dreamlike) appearance to whatever organism is conscious of it.

We're always inevitably going to hit our heads against the old wall of the "world-in-itself", as if it could/should exist without the perspective of the local observer. As a networking species of consensus making, we will always fall back on the common sense notions for knowing the difference between what is meant by an illusion and the thing that the illusion references in a third-party verifiable world.

To scare children on Halloween!? — RussellA

You might be scaring the "adults" too.

It is true that common sense and illusion can interfere with dreams. Our minds—maybe imposed by social frameworks—always try to have a notion of reality, and it is sad how we discarded the value of dreams for this reason. If I dream about a past experience, I wouldn't say it is an illusion. It is just a memory who is showing up again in a dream. Nonetheless, if I dream with non-existing things, I guess I would have to label it as an illusion. Yet I wouldn't say that all dreams lead me to illusional notions.

But my point is that if I dream about the past, this is not necessarily leading me to a deception. So, we have to be careful of using these frames as a notion of reality. — javi2541997

Definitely not.   You have your memory to back up your dreams have factual coherence from the past.
Time and space are regarded as external entities by scientists.  But your point seems to indicate they can be internal (mental) entities private to you.  Could it be related to Kant?

That's a very creative image. But I don't see TS and Madonna in it at all.

Yet I wouldn't say that all dreams lead me to illusional notions. — javi2541997

Often and recently what occurs in my dreams are supernormal stimului which refer directly to the normal everyday world, and just emerge out of interior worries.

In the real world I am a custodian of a meditation center and a Japanese inspired garden.

In the dream world:

I am the sole custodian of a miniature city (think of the Vatican) with endless water terraces. The subterranean pumping network is endless and so are the levers and buttons. It is altogether too much for a single person to take care of (I get lost). As a lone individual I cannot contain or control the pilgrims who come to the city and treat it as if it were a tourist attraction, who transgress every rule that they were blind to from eagerness to see. The crowd is too big and chaotic to learn how to approach the place.

At other times:

The miniature city/state is completely empty and I go in search of company I cannot find, getting lost.

But your point seems to indicate they can be internal (mental) entities private to you.  Could it be related to Kant? — Corvus

Yes, it is a Kantian point of view. I know that scientists claim that time and space are external entities, but as I said previously, I tried to explain that my argument was not under that frame but another perspective. The basic premise is that we try to determine a basic sense or notion, and for this reason we tend to discard dreams for several reasons. Nonetheless, we usually dream with past experiences, people, and places, and I wouldn't name these dreams as 'illusions' because I literally experienced this in the past. Otherwise, I had to admit that what I lived in the past is somehow not plausible.

Your dreams are interesting, and they have a common set: you custody a place. So, we can say that your dream has a bit of coherence at least. For some complex reasons that are very difficult to explain because dreams are puzzled, you also custody a city. Sometimes is full of elements (water, terraces, subterranean networks, etc.), and others is empty. This has meaning, I am sure. Because yourself is not changing in the dream but the place or scenario. According to your dreams, wouldn't you accept that there could be two realities? Yourself as a custodian of a meditation centre and then as a custodian of those dreamlike cities, which could lack common sense, but I wouldn't label them illusional.

That's a very creative image. But I don't see TS and Madonna in it at all. — Corvus

Can't you see Madonna in the eyes and a nose strikingly similar to that of Taylor Swift?

Yes, we are both perceiving an object that doesn't exist.

your dream has a bit of coherence — javi2541997

It has full coherence in the context of my personal experience. It is just an exaggeration of my worries in the mundane realm.

According to your dreams, wouldn't you accept that there could be two realities? — javi2541997

One reality, two reality, three reality... I'll defer to whatever the consensus is on this as ultimately I don't think it makes much of a difference.

Can't you see Madonna in the eyes and a nose strikingly similar to that of Taylor Swift?

Yes, we are both perceiving an object that doesn't exist. — RussellA

No, I cannot see M or TS in there at all, but then I have never looked at their facial features of the eyes and nose closely before. I tend to look at and identify them with the whole face, hair style and what they wear rather than eyes or nose. You created the image, hence the image exists.

Funny, but I have little recall of explicit dreams of sounds. — noAxioms

Could sounds in dreams might interrupt the dream, and make the dreamer wake up from sleep, therefore you subconsciously switch the volume off during dreaming?

They're the sort of thing that we might find ourselves experiencing, especially if you lead a life that often experiences new places. One would expect to dream of experiencing yet more new things. — noAxioms

In my dream one night, I was flying a light airplane over the night sea. In real life, I don't know how to fly airplane, and never plan to learn to fly either. That dream was something that I would never experience or wish in my life time in real life.

I think that one thing would be obvious in the realism of dreams. If you don't have any idea or experience of something, you likely won't have that in your dream either.

So likely when in your dream flying a light airplane of the night sea, I assume that it's likely you flew it straight and level. It's likely that didn't stall the airplane and put it into a tailspin or perform high-G turns or inverted flight.

Having flown sailplanes, done even aerobatics with them and few times been at the controls of motor airplanes, it's the motions that you experience that cannot be duplicated by the smart simulators of today, even if Microsoft Flight Simulator mimics reality very well otherwise. These motions are very mild in passenger aircraft, that nearly everyone has flown in: the acceleration at take off and the tiny effect of turbulence. Yet few have experienced how being in a tailspin feels like or how G-forces are experienced in the air. A roller coaster ride gives some feel of this, but as a roller coaster ride is done on rails, it misses just how smooth aircraft feel as they're not attached to rails.

How that then comes in your dreams is interesting, as usually we see, hear, touch and can even smell something in our dreams, but the inner ear's vestibular system isn't giving us much feedback, especially not something that we haven't experienced. Yet if you have a lot of experience of something, you likely can feel experiencing it in your dream too.

Does it imply that our perceptions are not direct? Could there be other factors involved in perception apart from the the object of perception, sensory organs, memories and experiences?

Could there be other factors involved in perception apart from the the object of perception, sensory organs, memories and experiences? — Corvus

How would we perceive them?

Could sounds in dreams might interrupt the dream, and make the dreamer wake up from sleep, therefore you subconsciously switch the volume off during dreaming? — Corvus

I had a dream where I was trying to escape from captivity and I heard an alarm when I escaped but when I woke up the alarm was actually my alarm clock. So it seems that our minds are not completely shut off from the world and we interpret external stimuli as part of the dream.

The unique experiences we have in a dream is an amalgam of prior experiences. This is how we come up with unique ideas when awake - by logically incorporating various experiences together to come up with a new idea that is applicable to real-world situations. Think of dreams as this same process but without the logical direction that would be applied when we are awake. In the dream world we don't have the external world applying boundaries to our experience. It's more like a runaway process.

How about when we perceive silence, emptiness in space or time passing? The objects of our perception actually don't exist in material level. However, we still perceive them. — Corvus

What does it mean for our perception to not exist in a material level? Our perceptions and dreams can have a causal impact on the world, no different than when a errant baseball smashes a window. Our ideas and dreams are as real and exist on the same level as the baseball and window. The issue seems to be in thinking of ourselves and our perceptions as distinct, or separate from the world, when we are not.