• ToothyMaw
    1.3k
    The following is a somewhat problematic argument I developed attempting to defend my support for reparations for slavery in another thread, and, since no one seemed to pay it any attention, I thought I would dedicate a thread to examining it and talking about why I think it is important. To be effectively deployed it requires one side in an argument to assert that an evil action can be justly corrected for in the present on the basis that the bad effects of that action still exist, and the other side to assert that just corrections for that evil action could have been justified in the past on the basis of those same bad effects having existed. The core of the argument is (in a somewhat unconventional format in terms of perspective):

    (1) There is a relationship between the magnitude of the evil of an action and its bad effects such that, generally, the longer lasting an action's bad effects are, the eviler the action is.

    (2) In keeping with the relation defined in (1), I assert that the magnitude of the evil of (evil act) scales upwardly with the length of its bad effects such that it has bad effects lasting until the present.

    (3) Thus, if you claim that the bad effects of (evil act) existed but are no longer present, and thus were not as long-lasting as I claim, then we must disagree on the magnitude of the evil of (evil act), or you must object to (1).

    (4) Hence, you must defend the position that (evil act) is less evil than I might claim it is, which is to say of a magnitude sufficient to having bad effects lasting until the present, or else grant that corrections for (evil act) could be justified today on the basis that the bad effects of the act are still present.

    From here one could claim that whatever act is being discussed could be anything from evil to the ultimate evil, and, either way, it generally looks kind of bad to defend the position that an act is not as evil as someone else claims, especially if that particular act is widely recognized as being very evil. Obviously.

    The first thing you might think to do is to continue to dispute whether or not the effects of the evil act are actually as long-lasting as claimed. While this might work, there is a good chance that this is a fool's errand, as decisively demonstrating such a thing is very difficult practically - especially when dealing with complex, intergenerational problems. So, unless you could do that really effectively, you would just be falling prey to the very same gambit, as you would still be forcing yourself into defending the notion that the given evil action is not as evil as the person who is making the argument claims it is - just on the basis of direct disagreement on the duration of the bad effects of the act in this case.

    To preempt an objection other than that it is a presumptuous argument (which it is): first off, if you’ll notice, there might seem to be a sort of switcheroo from (1) to (2): in (1) the magnitude of the evil of an action is represented as some essential (maybe even objective) characteristic of that action, but in (2), we have what might look like an undifferentiated, maybe-subjective statement concerning that evil. I find that the easiest way of understanding it is to treat it as a sort of compound "belief" that is dictated by the relation defined in (1) and the objective claim that the bad effects of the act last until the present: the objective claim with regards to the duration of bad effects is made, and from there the perceived magnitude of evil claimed in (2) could correlate with that claim as a result of mentally observing the relational definition provided in (1), i.e. the longer the bad effects of an act are the eviler it is - even if no direct statement, or perhaps even thought, on the actual nature or magnitude of the evil of the act is actualized yet. This compound belief is clearly compatible with (1). That's really all that is happening there. The psychology is not important, although I'm sure somebody will litigate it.

    While I originally thought that this argument was pretty much ironclad, the more I think about it, the more questionable it seems, if not because of the logic of it. For instance: how evil the evil act is in the mind of the person arguing against corrections could still be very similar, if not identical, to the one defending corrections - or so I think, as the argument has no tangible effect per se on the beliefs of the former, but rather reports on the magnitude of evil as some sort of essential facet of the action that is observed in terms of its bad effects - and, thus, it does allow for some range that could contain agreement with regards to what one might think one is seeing in terms of the extent of those bad effects, but this agreement might not extend to the mental estimation of the magnitude of the evil of the action; one could always bite the bullet, but that might not resolve this possible disjunction - the significance of which is, admittedly, uncertain.

    Furthermore, I think that this argument could be a little controversial were it to be invoked cavalierly, as the discourse around many long-lasting wrongs could be partially reduced to: you ought to correct this now or indirectly defend evil - even when both sides of an argument agree that the particular wrong in question happened and is serious. Looked at that way, maybe it is not so useful or impressive.

    Or maybe it could be thought of as a good way to encourage action. I don't know.

    Tell me what you guys think. I'm sure someone at some point will kneecap the argument, rendering much of the OP superfluous. But hey, that's how it goes.
  • tim wood
    9.3k
    In your other thread I asked this, which you saw fit not to answer, "I suppose this means you are in favor of cash payouts of some kind to some people. To whom, how much, what for, and to what end?"

    Will you/can you answer now?
  • ToothyMaw
    1.3k


    If I had to answer yes or no, I would say no. I want to say that yes, the descendants of slaves should get a payout, but it is too fraught with practical problems. Not to mention it might be irresponsible to use people's money in a way that might not be effective, if effectiveness is a metric by which we should consider government spending. But that seems like a cop-out. Really, if I thought payouts could work, I would be fully in favor of paying the right people and then allowing them to do whatever they want with that money, the same way you or I can mostly do whatever we want with our own wages. How much they would get paid, I don't know. There really is no upper limit on what could be justified in theory, but we would of course want to observe some limit even if it is arbitrary.

    My mind could be changed. If someone could lay out a defensible, effective, efficient plan for identifying who should get paid and how much, and it did not differ too much from my own views on the subject, then I would likely answer yes to your question.

    None of that is to say that this approach would be equally effective in correcting for all other historical injustices - that is, if you think payouts would be effective in the case of slavery at all, and clearly some people don't.

    But this thread isn't really about reparations for slavery in specific, so I'll just leave it at that.
  • ToothyMaw
    1.3k


    For me it comes down to: do we want to correct for the particular injustice in the most precise, straightforward way, or do we want to make the most out of whatever money we can manage to siphon towards helping poor people of color, which includes some - but clearly not all - descendants of slaves. I would choose the former, but both positions clearly have merit.

    I hope you are relating this discussion to the OP somehow.

    edit: the only relevant alternative to cash payouts I can think of would be extensive government programs intended to uplift poor people of color. Sorry for not stating that directly.
  • ToothyMaw
    1.3k


    Sorry for not being clearer and more direct with my response to your statement, which wasn't even a yes or no question. I just kind of glazed over while reading your post because I'm a little tired of the topic.
  • Sir2u
    3.5k
    For me it comes down to: do we want to correct for the particular injustice in the most precise, straightforward way, or do we want to make the most out of whatever money we can manage to siphon towards helping poor people of color, which includes some - but clearly not all - descendants of slaves. I would choose the former, but both positions clearly have merit.ToothyMaw

    What about all of the white people that arrived as indentured workers, those that were forcibly removed from their homeland because of some petty crime that they could not pay the fine for. Should there not be either cash or some sort of program to help them. There are a lot of poor white trailer trash whose ancestors did not ask to be taken to the Americas.
    And what about all of the poor religious people that were forced to move to the Americas and ended up living in poverty for generations, should not the governments that forced them to leave their homes have to pay them?

    And why should all of those that pay taxes now have to foot the bill for what a few people did way back when. Most of them have no reason to be "fined" for past injustices.
  • ToothyMaw
    1.3k


    Bro, I'm done arguing reparations. I did a poor job arguing for it and have no desire to discuss it further. If you want to engage with the OP, however, go ahead. I'll respond to that.
  • kazan
    152
    ToothyMaw,
    Do you claim only those actions to be evil that are seen/believed by "many" to be evil at the time of enactment? Or.....?
    Put differently, can an action not be seen as evil at the time of its enactment but that same action be seen as evil "down the historical track"?
    This question is put because answering it may go to the heart of 1) i.e. defining "the magnitude of evil", possibly the validity of your assertion of 2) i.e."scales upward with its length....to the present", may suggest another timeline argument cited in 3) i.e."claim the bad effects......are no longer present" and "must object to 1)" and may upset the balance of the assertion/conclusion of 4).
    It is hoped that this comment shows a 'fairly close to your point/s' understanding.
    fair smile.
  • kazan
    152
    Please insert the word "(variously)" between "This question is put because... answering"
    Sorry
  • ToothyMaw
    1.3k
    ToothyMaw,
    Do you claim only those actions to be evil that are seen/believed by "many" to be evil at the time of enactment? Or.....?
    Put differently, can an action not be seen as evil at the time of its enactment but that same action be seen as evil "down the historical track"?
    This question is put because answering it may go to the heart of 1) i.e. defining "the magnitude of evil", possibly the validity of your assertion of 2) i.e."scales upward with its length....to the present", may suggest another timeline argument cited in 3) i.e."claim the bad effects......are no longer present" and "must object to 1)" and may upset the balance of the assertion/conclusion of 4).
    It is hoped that this comment shows a 'fairly close to your point/s' understanding.
    fair smile.
    kazan

    I understand part of what you are saying, but could you try to express all of that a little more clearly? I think I can tell that you have a genuine criticism, I just can't understand what it is exactly.
  • ToothyMaw
    1.3k
    Since you haven't responded to me, I'll just engage with your initial post.

    ToothyMaw,
    Do you claim only those actions to be evil that are seen/believed by "many" to be evil at the time of enactment? Or.....?
    Put differently, can an action not be seen as evil at the time of its enactment but that same action be seen as evil "down the historical track"?
    kazan

    Yes, I would say that an action can be seen as not being evil at the time of its enactment, but that same action be seen as evil later.

    This question is put because answering it may go to the heart of 1) i.e. defining "the magnitude of evil", possibly the validity of your assertion of 2) i.e."scales upward with its length....to the present", may suggest another timeline argument cited in 3) i.e."claim the bad effects......are no longer present" and "must object to 1)" and may upset the balance of the assertion/conclusion of 4).kazan

    I think I might know what you are getting at here, but I need a little more explanation than that. I could guess at what you are trying to say, but honestly, I would prefer to fully understand your argument before responding.
  • kazan
    152
    @ToothyMaw,
    More questions to open up more possible conclusions than an argument based on taking a different philosophical stance, is he intention. But if you're more comfortable using traditional disputational philosophic processes, no probs. Whatever's comfortable.

    It is understood that your OP, among other points, is asking an assessment of the idea that some evil actions have ongoing bad consequences and therefore can be rated on a scale of evilness with greater evil being that which has longer ongoing bad consequences(i.e.(1)).
    If you agree in general terms this is close enough to your intentions, then the question is put, "Can some evil actions become seen as evil only after an appreciable period of time has elapsed?". To which you agreed, yes?
    It is understood point (2) of the OP is the assertion that if the evil action's consequences continue to the present, that scales up the original evilness of the action. Agreed?
    If you answer yes, then this question could be asked. "Does the older the evil action, that's consequences are still felt in the present, the more evil is that action mean that the oldest of such evil actions ( with current consequences) should be, for example, condemned more actively than more recent actions ( and adding your agreement to the time gap question regarded as evil sometime after their commission)? ( put another way, be considered worse morally?)
    If you agree then at this point the question can be asked, " Are all recent evil actions ( recognized as such immediately or subsequently) never going to achieve equal or highest evilness status until the older evil actions are deemed to no longer have consequences?
    Can you see where this is leading? Off subject you may claim perhaps rightly, but also perhaps into a morality of evil minefield, you may agree.
    Apologies for tardy replies, just a slow thinker.
    self deprecating smile
  • Vivek
    12
    Are you aware that the slave trade was occurring in Africa before Europeans ever got there?
  • ToothyMaw
    1.3k
    It is understood point (2) of the OP is the assertion that if the evil action's consequences continue to the present, that scales up the original evilness of the action. Agreed?kazan

    Agreed.

    If you answer yes, then this question could be asked. "Does the older the evil action, that's consequences are still felt in the present, the more evil is that action mean that the oldest of such evil actions ( with current consequences) should be, for example, condemned more actively than more recent actions ( and adding your agreement to the time gap question regarded as evil sometime after their commission)? ( put another way, be considered worse morally?)kazan

    That more recent actions are less immoral merely because they are more recent is clearly specious. If you enact something that will have horrific long-term consequences, although its evil might not be fully realized yet in the present, it possesses that potential - just distributed over time. So no, I don't think that older actions that have materially achieved a higher magnitude of evil in the present should always be considered to be worse - although that might often be the case.

    If you agree then at this point the question can be asked, " Are all recent evil actions ( recognized as such immediately or subsequently) never going to achieve equal or highest evilness status until the older evil actions are deemed to no longer have consequences?kazan

    I would say no, but I think I can address this despite objecting to the previous question. In fact, I think that this question is a good one even if it doesn't necessarily complement it at all. A fitting response does, however, push the limitations of my argument in a couple of notable ways - namely addressing the status of the evil of an act at its point of being executed, which I mostly avoided in my argument, and for good reason.

    So, I'm going to have to introduce some explicit math terminology: It depends upon some sort of initial factor or value assigned to the evil act (which depends upon factors other than time) and the rate (which is likely not constant) at which the magnitude of evil of the given evil action increases over a length of time - which determines its growth over an interval. If an action that is newer or recently deemed evil experiences sufficient growth over an interval it could overcome an older action in terms of growth of magnitude of evil over that interval - even before the older action no longer presents bad effects.

    If you think I'm being too loose with my usage of math terms, just say so.
  • kazan
    152
    @Vivek,
    Yes. Enslaving the conquered, to some degree, by the victor precedes the concept of "European" on all continents with the exception of Antarctica. Although, some first nations' people may use their lack of written history to argue the contrary.
    This thread is about the validity of a process or compilation of an argument with the example of application of such to a consequence of African slaves/slavery. The historical duration of enslavement within and between various tribes/clans of Africans is recognized. But can you show its relavence to this OP, please.
  • kazan
    152
    @ToothyMaw,
    No problems with terms, so long as we both understand sufficiently to progress. Agreed?

    You've recognized that an evil action needs a distinguishing status or, as you've suggested, an initial factor or value ( of magnitude?) of evilness assigned to it at its time of commission, (as well as the growth over time).
    Which raises the question: Can two evil actions be put in any significant order of magnitude (i.e. be distinguished as to their evilness) at the time of their commission without an examination of all of their current and future consequences?
    And also the question:Would an attempt of reparation to alleviate / to stop the ongoing and/or future evil consequences, be justifiable on the basis of distinguishing evilness as more or less when its full evilness is not yet realized compared to another evil action that has exhausted its consequences? Your OP'S Points (3) & (4) (Objectively, a both for and against leaning, perhaps?)
    Put simply, are the consequences of evilness, or the original status of evilness ( or the compilation of both) reason to give reparations? As this distinction would have moral repercussions where limited resources were being allocated between historical evils, and initial status and duration of evil are being posited as an argument of magnitudes ( of importance to allocate one over the other).
    Hopefully you recognize the drift of the above.
    Cheerful smile
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