I knew that rewards came into it. I just wondered whether they also did it for fun. Doing it for fun is intrinsically rewarding, but then the handler reinforces the reinforcement?Usually, quite literally and directly rewarding. ...... And some birds just mimic for the same reason they dance to music: it's fun. — Vera Mont
Yes, I know that. I think it's quite general in the scientific world these days. So things have got better - partly because of the fuss about that project. But I wouldn't dream of denying it. However, the failings of human beings are, let's say, persistent, so we should not get complacent. I'm sure you also agree with that.In US academia these days there are internal review boards which proposed research on human subjects must be approved by. ...... I don't know as much about nonacademic human research subjects review, but I doubt there is as little oversight as you suggest in most scientific research. — wonderer1
No, they haven't. They can't fight back. I like to think the glass is half full, but i can never forget that the glass is also half-empty. I'm always getting accused of being too optimistic and too pessimistic.These days, probably not. Up until the late 1970's, research wasn't at all well supervised or regulated in most countries. It was probably - just speculating now - government agencies' unconscionable behaviour that prompted legal and professional constraints on the use of human subjects. Other species have not fared as well - ever. — Vera Mont
Of course it is. WIttgenstein's work, especially on rule and rule-following indicates that, at some point, we act without benefit of articulation and I think that can be extended to understand how animals act rationally when they don't have the benefit of language.I am hungry, I will forage/hunt for food" is a rational stepwise train of thought for any animal that supports their survival. — Benj96
Yes. And they and we are also machines.We are still animals. — Benj96
That makes two of us. Exchanging views sounds a bit pointless to some people, but it is a very good way of learning and passing things on.I don't think either one of us is right, or wrong. I don't know enough about how the brain works to be right or wrong. I'm just guessing and passing on ideas I've picked up here and there. — BC
Yes. With complicatons. See your question below.'SELF' EXISTS as a durable, cohesive entity. — BC
Yes. There are milestones in the story. The identity of people is peculiar because they have a say themselves about who and what they are. It gets very complicated because other people also have a say and the views may differ. Take the example of someone elected to be pope. They take a new name, and this is intended to reflect the beginning of a new identity. (There are other examples, but I'm not sure how widespread the practice is.) You make or may not but that. He is the guy who was called X by everybody, but became pope and now is called Y (by some people) But what's the guy's real name?The "terrible twos" are a time when young children have come into possession of their self. And then we spend the rest of our lives cultivating 'selfhood'. — BC
It's not unimportant, but it's less than having a self or not. It's not even about whether they are self-conscious or not. Perhaps it's about whether they know how others see them. That's not a small thing.Some animals seem to have a self and some do not. An alleged test of 'self' is whether the animal recognizes itself in a mirror. 'Elephants do, dogs don't. On the other hand, the dogs I have lived with all seem to have diligently pursued their self-interests and preferences. I don't know any elephants. — BC
I hope you don't hate this.So, question: How do you think the self is composed? Does DNA play a role? When does the self form--does it arise gradually or suddenly? Can we 'lose our self"? — BC
I don't believe it partly because I can't imagine what an after-life without a physical body would be like. No senses! How does that work? Is it like being blind, deaf, dumb? Ugh!Does our self survive death? ..... Even if I don't believe in it, I find it difficult to imagine an afterlife of zeroed out souls who are without the selves they possessed in life. — BC
Why do you think we make pets of them? All intelligent species have a great deal in common, which is why they are able to communicate with and feel affection for one another.Doing it for fun. They're almost human, aren't they? — Ludwig V
....not to mention predict football games... Has anyone asked an octopus for 13 keys to winning an American election? I wouldn't want one for a pet. Really, I wouldn't want any pet that has to be confined. There are few things I dislike as much as cages, but an aquarium is unavoidable for marine species. I'd set Nemo free every time.Octopuses, now. — Ludwig V
And daily fewer non-human species as there are daily more humans.Everywhere you look, when you look closely, there's more to non-humans than humans think. — Ludwig V
It's the shortage of birds I'm noticing. Insects are around in fair numbers. I expect they do better in non-agricultural areas.This afternoon, a sunny September say, I set a freshly-painted board out on the porch to dry, confident that no insects would stick to it and no bird would crap on it. I haven't had to wash the windshield all summer. — Vera Mont
I haven't had to wash the windshield all summer. — Vera Mont
So, what are the swallows and robins supposed to eat — Vera Mont
Is it rational to believe illnesses are caused by the gods? Is it rational to believe a god created man from mud?
The worms that early birds get are something of an ecological problem. — BC
I guess I was wrong about in thinking there might be more insects in the suburban area I live in. I see so much about how the countryside is losing all its insects mainly ot pesticides that I made an assumption. There are pesticides here too, but likely less than in crop-growing areas.People who live in crop growing rural areas certainly see more insects than urban dwellers. — BC
Are you referencing Rachel Carson's book "Silent Spring" that started the ecoological movement? The title was a prophecy at the time, but it looks as if it is coming true, and we are at last recognizing it - virtually too late.Next year may be altogether silent. — Vera Mont
How indeed? There are invasive species in the UK too; some of them come from the US, others from the Far East - a legacy of Empire and globalization. The grey squirrel is a good example from the US; there's a European species that is, in my book, even cuter, but it's become marginalized now. There are sanctuaries and a lot of greys are being killed to preserve them. The mink escaped from fur farms and caused a lot of damage. They seem to be on the retreat now. I'm afraid the cause is at least partly endless eradication campaigns.How could big fat juicy earthworms be a problem? — BC
That's fascinating. I don't do any calculus when I'm catching a ball - I "just know" where to put my hands. Some people talk about "judgement". One supposes that my brain is doing the calculations sub- or un-consciously. I guess my brain is doing some work, but doubt that it is doing calculus calculations. But who knows? However I think it is more plausible to suppose that it is using some quick and dirty heuristic, which, no doubt, would give mathematicians a fit; but evolution only cares what works well enough. The same, I would think, for the dog.A mathematician shows that his dog, when fetching a ball thrown into water, appears to be calculating the optimal path from A to B as if using calculus. But, of course, calculus is computationally tricky even for most non-expert human beings. A dog cannot know calculus. Can he?! — cherryorchard
A dog cannot know calculus. Can he?! — cherryorchard
A dog cannot know calculus. Can he?! — cherryorchard
I don't do any calculus when I'm catching a ball - I "just know" where to put my hands. Some people talk about "judgement". One supposes that my brain is doing the calculations sub- or un-consciously. I guess my brain is doing some work, but doubt that it is doing calculus calculations — Ludwig V
However I think it is more plausible to suppose that it is using some quick and dirty heuristic, which, no doubt, would give mathematicians a fit; but evolution only cares what works well enough. The same, I would think, for the dog. — Ludwig V
More realistic sounding to me is that dogs (and people) use a gaze heuristic.. — wonderer1
I'm not sure if you read the paper I attached — cherryorchard
I meant "dirty" on in the sense that it won't be like the mathematical version. Which, to be fair, comes in very handy in some of the situations we put ourselves into. Long ocean voyages, navigating in the air and beyond. Calculating the orbits of planets, etc.What's interesting here is that sometimes our 'subconscious' mental calculations are not quick and dirty – they are enormously precise and accurate. A good example might be professional snooker or pool players. They are capable of modelling physics interactions to extraordinary degrees of specificity. Their models are probably superior to purely mathematical models in terms of predictive accuracy. But they do not consciously perform calculations at all. — cherryorchard
the dog's actions cannot be explained by applying the gaze heuristic, because that heuristic deals with tracking moving objects. The dog is not tracking a moving object — cherryorchard
I don't suppose the test can be administered to newborns. The subject must have the skill to distinguish objects and generalize how 'things' are expected to behave.The baby exhibited an expression of SHOCK! Objects are supposed to fall when released. — BC
The grey squirrel is a good example from the US — Ludwig V
So when a new thing does the opposite, the first reaction is surprise, quickly followed by delight — Vera Mont
Social scientists and psychoanalysts have not been able to determine what, exactly, is the source of this inter-squirrel hostility. — BC
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