The "formatting" helps you illiterati read and maybe even comprehend the post. Btw, you're welcome.

Let us take a moment to note that the person responsible for conducting the most well-documented genocide in recorded history, Benjamin Netanyahu, got some 50 standing ovations while delivering a speech in US Congress.

It's like watching a scene out of Maoist China.

I wonder how Americans reflect on this. Do you think this is normal? Do you expect the world to believe this is normal?

I think it's the final nail on the coffin of US credibility, if I'm totally honest.

Remember when the Israelis accused Hamas of brutality?

Israeli media airs footage showing alleged footage of Palestinian detainee

This is just an indication of what is currently going on in Israeli prisons. and this is what we, the West, are quietly approving with our 'ironclad support'.

I hope the Americans here understand this is what your Congress was applauding for only a little while ago. This is what your nation is stooging for.

Old news: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/11/israel-opt-horrifying-cases-of-torture-and-degrading-treatment-of-palestinian-detainees-amid-spike-in-arbitrary-arrests/

Older news: https://www.savethechildren.net/news/stripped-beaten-and-blindfolded-new-research-reveals-ongoing-violence-and-abuse-palestinian

It's not the exception but a feature.

Sad but true.

It's not the exception but a feature. — Benkei

Now about 39 000 in Gaza have been killed. That's like every 58th person
in Gaza.

I assume the way is now for the media just to forget it ...and with people then being surprised later (perhaps in 2025, 2026) that it's still going on.

Media has already forgotten it. Just look at this thread. The wheels of justice turn slowly and at least e have a few court cases to look forward to.

Let us take a moment to note that the person responsible for conducting the most well-documented genocide in recorded history, Benjamin Netanyahu, got some 50 standing ovations while delivering a speech in US Congress.

It's like watching a scene out of Maoist China.

I wonder how Americans reflect on this. — Tzeentch

Students do.

This conflict should have been solved when the Cold War ended, but it didn't.

The Israeli right and Netanyahu understood that for the US, the US-Israeli axis was far more than just an Cold War alliance. It wasn't the few million American Jews, but all the Evangelists who had a special place in their heart for Israel. And Bibi has been the best politician to use this totally exceptional relationship. I think he partly could be said to be also a de facto American politician. That's how well he can influence the US, even if he basically is a foreigner.

Media has already forgotten it. Just look at this thread. The wheels of justice turn slowly and at least e have a few court cases to look forward to. — Benkei

And unfortunately, which I truly hate, for some it has become part of the left/right culture war.

The sad fact is that the IDF can continue this for a very long time ...it isn't unbearable for the Israeli society. After all, perpetual low intensity conflict is the "natural state" of Israel for the ruling party whose original motto was "from the river to the sea". And they are confident they will get there, it will just take time.

The Israeli right and Netanyahu understood that for the US, the US-Israeli axis was far more than just an Cold War alliance. It wasn't the few million American Jews, but all the Evangelists who had a special place in their heart for Israel. And Bibi has been the best politician to use this totally exceptional relationship. I think he partly could be said to be also a de facto American politician. That's how well he can influence the US, even if he basically is a foreigner. — ssu

Hm. I'm honestly not one to ascribe a decisive amount of influence to interest groups and lobbies like the US Israel lobby.

I think Israel serves US grand strategy in that it gives the US a vital proxy in an economically important region. For example, Iran occupies one of three vital bottlenecks that connect China to Europe, the Middle-East and Africa overland. The other two being Eastern Europe and the Caucasus.

I think it suits the US political establishment just fine that Netanyahu, the Evangelicals, etc. take the flak while no one seems to wonder how come the most powerful nation in the world is (supposedly) being commandeerd by radical loonies.

In my view, it isn't. These groups are just the patsies, while the main driver is actual US grand strategy and the interest groups we believe are somehow causing this are just the vultures flocking to the smell of fresh carrion. The MIC functions in the same way.

What is the US's "grand strategy" and who's the mastermind of it?

The "formatting" helps you illiterati read and maybe even comprehend the post. Btw, you're welcome. — 180 Proof

It doesn't. It both makes it distinctly harder to grasp what you mean by all the random, nonsensical formatting - and It makes you look like more of a narcissist than does your content. Which is wild, particularly given the tone of this response I've quote LOL.
Your lack of self-awareness is absolutely astounding.

Current US grand strategy focuses on China, which is the obvious contender for global dominance (which Russia isn't), and the architects of this are the US political establishment/political elite/deep state, or whatever name you want to put on the people who run the show in the US.

To add:

Netanyahu is attempting to position Israel as the vanguard of Western civilization in the fight against "barbarism," with the implicit message that only his vision, driven by an unwavering military stance, can protect our Western way of life. He invokes religious texts and historical analogies, but does so in a way that polarizes and excludes any compromise. This rhetoric increasingly distances Israel from the ideals of justice, freedom, and human rights—the pillars of civilised democracies.

By demonizing Palestinians and glorifying military aggression as the only effective response to threats, Netanyahu reduces the complex geopolitical reality to a black-and-white struggle between good and evil. This dangerous simplification not only fosters a cycle of violence but also undermines the ability of the international community to pursue peaceful solutions. What we are witnessing is a dangerous shift toward a worldview in which power and military force are the only legitimate means of ensuring security, regardless of the human cost.

This is a direct threat to the values we should cherish: the protection of human rights, respect for and adherence to international law, and the commitment to diplomacy over violence. We must ask ourselves whether we want to continue supporting this course. Israel has the right to security, but that right should not become an excuse for unchecked power politics and the denial of the fundamental rights of others and the denial of their security. It is time for a reassessment, in the interest of both Israel and the global community. Defending our way of life cannot involve endorsing a racist ideology that stands in direct opposition to the fundamental principles of justice and humanity.

A country that deliberately bombs hospitals, schools, refugee camps, universities, museums, churches, mosques, and entire residential neighborhoods rejects the foundations of a civilised way of life. The West's continued support not only undermine the principles of justice and humanity but pose a direct threat to everything we stand for as a civilised society.

:eyes: Troll is, I guess, as troll does.

This is a direct threat to the values we should cherish: the protection of human rights, respect for and adherence to international law, and the commitment to diplomacy over violence.... A country that deliberately bombs hospitals, schools, refugee camps, universities, museums, churches, mosques, and entire residential neighborhoods rejects the foundations of a civilised way of life. — Benkei

Just for the heck of it, you would say the same about Russia?

Israel has the right to security, but that right should not become an excuse for unchecked power politics and the denial of the fundamental rights of others and the denial of their security. It is time for a reassessment, in the interest of both Israel and the global community. — Benkei

Are you suggesting western powers' guaranteeing of Israel's security? I'd be for that, details to be worked out.

And unfortunately, which I truly hate, for some it has become part of the left/right culture war. — ssu

Sorta? It's now more like the far left, muslims, and far right have formed a bloc that opposes Israel. So it's more like horseshoe theory. Moderate Dems are generally supportive of it as are most Republicans except the ones are fringes like the groypers/white supremacists.

And they are confident they will get there, it will just take time. — ssu

Bibi said he did not intend to take Gaza in his speech to the US Congress. Maybe you know Bibi was lying?

What we are witnessing is a dangerous shift toward a worldview in which power and military force are the only legitimate means of ensuring security, regardless of the human cost. — Benkei

It's a tactic of rhetorical attack as would populist do. Your do not engage in any discussion, you simply firmly state your line, something that many could call propaganda.

A country that deliberately bombs hospitals, schools, refugee camps, universities, museums, churches, mosques, and entire residential neighborhoods rejects the foundations of a civilised way of life. The West's continued support not only undermine the principles of justice and humanity but pose a direct threat to everything we stand for as a civilised society. — Benkei

Seems you would be also talking about Russian forces, but anyway.

I think it was you @Benkei, that remarked this being a genocide done simply slowly. This may have the point in that if the IDF doesn't take into consideration civilians as when the US has fought in Iraqi cities, which is now quite obvious from the death toll, it doesn't reach the sickening numbers of civilians killed by Germany during the Warsaw Uprising of 1944 or what the Japanese forces did in Manila and Nanjing. Yet that number of killed is far higher than how many civilians have been killed in the Ukraine war, even if it would have the few battalions of Palestinian fighters included.

Of course the fact is that Israel is also changing a lot. It isn't similar as what it was in the 20th Century and just shows clearly that a rather secular society can become more religious even in this Century.

Hm. I'm honestly not one to ascribe a decisive amount of influence to interest groups and lobbies like the US Israel lobby. — Tzeentch

Then you should compare the relationship to other allies of the US. Politics is in the end domestic politics.

I think Israel serves US grand strategy in that it gives the US a vital proxy in an economically important region. For example, Iran occupies one of three vital bottlenecks that connect China to Europe, the Middle-East and Africa overland. The other two being Eastern Europe and the Caucasus. — Tzeentch

If we go to geopolitics, wouldn't then Egypt be a far more crucial link with it having the Suez Canal? Or simply Saudi-Arabia with it's position and oil reserves? Sorry, but you cannot explain the exceptional status of US-Israeli relations by other means than the amount of American voters for whom Israel is important. Especially when there is no Soviet Union, when Egypt, Saudi-Arabia and the GCC states are allies of the US. During the Cold War it was totally different.

In my view, it isn't. These groups are just the patsies, while the main driver is actual US grand strategy and the interest groups we believe are somehow causing this are just the vultures flocking to the smell of fresh carrion. — Tzeentch

US Grand Strategy?

Really?

Sorry, but there's no US Grand Strategy when it come to the real actions and policies which the US takes.

Of the Great Powers I would say that the only country that has the patience and ability to think long term so much that it really could have something like a "Grand Strategy" is simply China.

It's now more like the far left, muslims, and far right have formed a bloc that opposes Israel. So it's more like horseshoe theory. Moderate Dems are generally supportive of it as are most Republicans except the ones are fringes like the groypers/white supremacists. — BitconnectCarlos

You do understand that people mean with the far right (just as with the far left) totally different people that others think they are.

Bibi said he did not intend to take Gaza in his speech to the US Congress. Maybe you know Bibi was lying? — BitconnectCarlos

Bibi knows just what to tell the Americans and when. For him Americans aren't a problem, he's lived enough time in the US and has followed the politics to understand how American politics works.

Young Bibi at Cheltenham High Year Book:


(Which btw Bibi later lied about... as he stated that he would have just been in schools in Israel)

If we go to geopolitics, wouldn't then Egypt be a far more crucial link with it having the Suez Canal? Or simply Saudi-Arabia with it's position and oil reserves? — ssu

It's not like the US hasn't tried on both accounts.

Iran is particularly important though because it occupies the bottleneck leading to both the Middle-East, Asia Minor and Africa. That's where US and Israeli interests coincide, and there's no other power in the Middle-East that could fulfill that role.

Suez is not an unimportant bottleneck either though. And guess what we see there? Meddling by the Americans with chaos as a result, and of course decades of hostility between Israel and Egypt. After all, that which America can't control it must destroy.

Coincidence? I guess so, since apparently US grand strategy doesn't exist, and articles like 'A Geostrategy for Eurasia' by Zbigniew Brzezinski apparently don't exist either.

I'm honestly a bit shocked you would claim that US grand strategy doesn't exist, but all that means is that the US is being successful at hiding their agenda.

Don't let yourself be fooled though. It is not coincidence that keeps the evil empire afloat.


PS: Just to add, radical loonies like Netanyahu are the perfect patsies for the US. They can pretend a radical ally is 'forcing' them to be complicit in genocide, when in fact the US does and has always done these things out of pure power politics. Not the first genocide the US has funded, by the way.

IF that's how you see yourself mate, be my guest. I just think you're dull and self-obsessed.

It's not like the US hasn't tried on both accounts. — Tzeentch

Uh, both Egypt and Saudi-Arabia are allies of the US.

Coincidence? I guess so, since apparently US grand strategy doesn't exist, and articles like 'A Geostrategy for Eurasia' by Zbigniew Brzezinski apparently don't exist either. — Tzeentch

Mr Brzezinski, the former security advisor of Jimmy Carter doesn't make up the "Grand Strategy" of the US. Yes, he can write books like the "Grand Chessboard", but it's whimsical to assume that he controls a "Grand Strategy" of the US.

I'm honestly a bit shocked you would claim that US grand strategy doesn't exist, but all that means is that the US is being successful at hiding their agenda. — Tzeentch

I'm not at all surprised that you think that the all the administrations from the Carter administration through Trump to Biden have behind them a "Grand Strategy"...

...masterminded by Zbigniew Brzezinski. :snicker:

In fact your idea of there being a "Grand Strategy" simply shows how little you know of how Washington works and how it goes through different agendas and strategies all the time. Or you think that from "CENTO" to "Twin Pillars" to "Dual Containment" to "War on Terror" truly represent a part of a "Grand Strategy" in the Middle East?

Heck, even the stance on Israel has changed quite a lot, if you start from the 1940's.

You do understand that people mean with the far right (just as with the far left) totally different people that others think they are. — ssu

Sure. I mean the neo-nazi/nick fuentes "groyer" movement here in the US.

Bibi knows just what to tell the Americans and when. For him Americans aren't a problem, he's lived enough time in the US and has followed the politics to understand how American politics works. — ssu

Sure he can deal with Americans. But to say that Israel has the US wrapped around its finger is simply a misassessment of reality. Tensions have heightened in recent talks and the Biden administration has been quietly targeting Israel with unprecedented sanctions.

Uh, both Egypt and Saudi-Arabia are allies of the US. — ssu

They are really not, but there have been times during which the US attempted to placate them. Pretty much every nation in the Middle-East would be overtly hostile to the United States if it weren't for the threat of retaliation. Israel is the only real US ally in the region.

I'm not at all surprised that you think that the all the administrations from the Carter administration through Trump to Biden have behind them a "Grand Strategy"... — ssu

I'm not talking about the administrations obviously. Presidents haven't had any significant influence on foreign policy for decades. That much should have been clear from the moment a former actor became president.

In fact your idea of there being a "Grand Strategy" simply shows how little you know of how Washington works and how it goes through different agendas and strategies all the time. — ssu

Oh, sweet summer child. :lol:

It's not like US grand strategy is a secret. You can find hours upon hours of panel discussions by related thinktanks which provide a broad outline of what this strategy looks like.

Of course the US has a grand strategy. It's rather cute that people here seem to believe that formerly the most powerful empire on the planet runs on coincidence.

Bibi knows just what to tell the Americans and when. For him Americans aren't a problem, [...] — ssu

I think we should be open to the possibility that it is in fact Netanyahu who is being played by US Congress. US Congress seems to know exactly how to play towards his narcissistic disposition, don't they?

For decades, Israel has been pursuing policies that basically guarantee its own destruction, while carrying out US foreign policy, namely sowing chaos and exerting influence in a region the US is unable to directly control.

Meanwhile, the US can exculpate itself from principal responsibility for Israeli human rights abuses and war crimes because "the poor United States is being dragged along by Israeli ultranationalists and their psychopathic leader".

Israel does all this without having any formal security arrangements with the United States. And we know what happens with nations that presume on special relationships. (Vietnam, Ukraine, etc.)

So who is being played by who here?

to say that Israel has the US wrapped around its finger is simply a misassessment of reality. Tensions have heightened in recent talks and the Biden administration has been quietly targeting Israel with unprecedented sanctions. — BitconnectCarlos

Is it?

Let's take what these "unprecedented sanctions" have just been, from the link you gave us:

The goal is not to reverse any policy by the Israeli government but to create a climate of controversy around Netanyahu and his right-wing coalition partners.

So, the goal is not to reverse any policy... sounds odd for sanctions, but perhaps not for "unprecedented sanctions". As here the victims of the sanctions are like these:

(PBS News, March 14th 2024) he Biden administration on Thursday imposed sanctions on three extremist Israeli settlers in the occupied West Bank who are accused of harassing and attacking Palestinians to pressure them to leave their land.

Two farms that the settlers run were also targeted in the move that is likely to increase already heightened tensions between the U.S. and Israel over the Gaza war.

The announcement from the State Department and Treasury comes at a time of increasing friction between President Joe Biden and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, whose far-right government has reacted angrily to previous sanctions imposed against West Bank settlers.

U.S. officials — from Biden and Secretary of State Antony Blinken — have repeatedly raised concerns about a surge in settler violence against Palestinians in the West Bank since Israel’s war on Hamas in the Gaza Strip began.

Here's about this from the German DW News:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=k5DckrHCVBg

Hence these sanctions are against few single individuals, to whom likely this "sanctions" aren't even a nuisance, but a badge of honor. Hence it's rather whimsical even to refer to sanctions in the way we understand sanctions against Russia, Iran or North Korea.

Uh, both Egypt and Saudi-Arabia are allies of the US. — ssu

They are really not, but there have been times during which the US attempted to placate them. — Tzeentch

Again @Tzeentch is in his fictional alternative universe. Get your facts straight, man.

Why do I bother commenting your absurdities and errors?

Calling Egypt and Saudi-Arabia US allies just turns 'ally' into a vacuous term. Of course they are not allies - certainly not today. Egypt is in BRICS, and Saudi-Arabia is openly flirting with it.

I'm sure the US likes to believe they hold some kind of non-coercive sway over these countries, but that's just fantasy on their part. History shows what happens to indepedently-minded countries in the Gulf and the Middle-East, and Egypt and Saudi-Arabia just realized at some point their fates would be the same as Iraq if they didn't dance to Uncle Sam's tune.

But times are changing now.

Why do I bother commenting your absurdities and errors? — ssu

Sounds like you're looking for a cheap way out. You didn't even respond to the meat of my response, instead trying to pretend Saudi-Arabia and Egypt are allies or even friends of the US (which they obviously are not, if ever they were).

Calling Egypt and Saudi-Arabia US allies just turns 'ally' into a vacuous term. Of course they are not allies - certainly not today. — Tzeentch

:lol:
Don't let actual reality or actual data hinder your delusions or your imagination:



If a country has gotten more military aid than the ill fated South Vietnam or the similarly ill fated Republic of Afghanistan and only Israel has gotten more, then you have very curious is your ideas of the enemies of the US. And likely you never have heard about the large Bright Star Exercises that the US and the Egyptian military have had from 1980 with latest in 2023 (and the next one to be in 2025). But, as I said, do not let reality hinder your imagination in any way.


From last year:

The US said it is cooperating "closely" with Egypt to de-escalate conflicts and promote sustainable peace, including by supporting UN mediation to enable elections in Libya as soon as possible.

They are also cooperating to restore a civilian-led transition in Sudan through the Framework Political Agreement, the statement added.

It noted that both nations share "an unwavering" commitment to a negotiated two-state solution as the only path to a "lasting resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and equal measures of security, prosperity, and dignity for Israelis and Palestinians."

The US said, based on Egypt’s transformational peace with Israel, it is partnering with Egypt to foster further regional cooperation including through the Negev Forum process, the state department added.

The statement added that Egypt is a valued US partner in counterterrorism, anti-trafficking and regional security operations, which advance both US and Egyptian security.

The decades-long defense partnership, it noted, is a pillar for regional stability.

, that's called bribery, not an alliance.

You may characterize this as an alliance, but I don't. Various countries in the Middle-East have been made to do Washington's bidding out of fear, and Egypt is obviously among those countries.

Why do I say that?

Egypt is the most populous country in the Middle-East and it is a geopolitically critical regeion due to the Suez canal. It is the most obvious contender for regional dominance in the Middle-East. Yet, today it is nowhere near that position and has suffered turmoil, including turmoil as a result of US meddling.

That is because the US and Israel are doing everything they can to stop regional powers from rising up in the Middle-East.

US and Egyptian interests clearly do not coincide, and this "alliance" is a product of something else.

US and Egyptian interests clearly do not coincide, and this "alliance" is a product of something else. — Tzeentch

Clearly they do, just like Saudi-Arabia has done for a long time. Even if the two countries would seem to be perfect enemies for each other with 9/11 terrorists and OBL and everything. That for example the US came to the aid of Saudi-Arabia in the most spectacular fashion with Operation Desert Shield shows this bond, just as does the US support for the Saudi lead war in Yemen.



What you can only argue is that the relations might sour in the future, just as they did with Iran after it's revolution or like with Pakistan later. Yet the simply truth is that these two countries, just like the GCC countries, are quite crucial allies for the United States. Membership in BRICS doesn't change this reality, because there is a multitude of similar organization where countries hold summits.

I've been the first one here arguing that the US Middle East policy is a slow train wreck, but the truth is that many of the allies of United States aren't similar as NATO countries and have similar value based relationship and clearly have their own agendas.

But stay in your la la land where Egypt and Saudi-Arabia are enemies of the US.