First, we need to outline what is meant by these terms.
Determinism frames the premise that our futures are set and unchangeable (human choices are not real), whereas non-determinism frames the premise that humans can change their fate (human choices are real). — I like sushi
If determinism is true, then there is no good reason to deliberate because such thought will not change how I decide (I must choose, or "act" the same way whether I deliberate or not). — NotAristotle
... then involuntarily determined sometimes I deliberate and sometimes I do not deliberate; thus, it is an illusion (i.e. cognitive bias) that "retrospectively I feel" I could have "voluntarily" done A instead of B or "prospectively feel" I will "voluntarily" do X and not Y ... as if my volition is not embodied-conditioned-constrained (i.e. determined) by causes known and unknown to me moment to moment.If determinism is true ... — NotAristotle
This is unreasonable. Human choice is real, determinism or no. Do not make the mistake of equating choice with free choice, responsibility with external responsibility. Your post seems to equate the two.Determinism frames the premise that our futures are set and unchangeable (human choices are not real), whereas non-determinism frames the premise that humans can change their fate (human choices are real). — I like sushi
Few ask this. In short, believe whatever makes you do the more correct thing. If your beliefs in this matter don't significantly influence your day to day decisions, then the beliefs don't particularly matter. If fear of the wrath of the FSM makes you a better person, by all means make that part of your beliefs.The question posed here is what is better to believe.
Externally preordained, yes. This does not imply that your belief is not a choice.To start, if determinism is true, it makes no difference what we believe as what we believe is preordained.
Double negative? The lack of determinism does not necessarily imply free will, but again, your continued post obviously presumes otherwise. Maybe you should be asking about free will, and not worry about determinism at all, starting with a decent definition of what you think it is.If non-determinism is false, then it makes no difference as determinism would be true - the same situation as stated with determinism.
So this machine, unlike a video game where the player makes choices, is more like going to the cinema and having your experience done for your, except fully immersive. A story told is not a life lived. A purpose is served, but it's not your own. I agree with Nozick in this sense. But has he illustrated the difference between choice and free choice, or just choice and no choice?The human choice of entering this machine is effectively a denial of reality in favor of a world where human experiences are determined by the machine rather than chosen directly by the human.
I googled 'compatibilism' and it ended with "Compatibilism does not maintain that humans are free.". I don't see much difference in this view and 3) no free will.Compatibilism, in a nut shell, is the view that free will is compatible with determinism. — wonderer1
My understanding of fatalism is that things will turn out the same in the long run regardless of the choices made. If you save a life of a person fated to die today, he'll die by another means shortly.What you are describing as determinism I would call fatalism.
Nonsense. Thought very much has a causal influence on decisions. If you deliberate, the choice will very much be different than if you don't deliberate.If determinism is true, then there is no good reason to deliberate because such thought will not change how I decide (I must choose, or "act" the same way whether I deliberate or not). — NotAristotle
Determinism frames the premise that our futures are set and unchangeable (human choices are not real), whereas non-determinism frames the premise that humans can change their fate (human choices are real). — I like sushi
truth does not tell us what is better. — I like sushi
The question now is not about what is true because we have no current way of unraveling this question in any simple manner. The question posed here is what is better to believe. — I like sushi
Few ask this. In short, believe whatever makes you do the more correct thing. If your beliefs in this matter don't significantly influence your day to day decisions, then the beliefs don't particularly matter. If fear of the wrath of the FSM makes you a better person, by all means make that part of your beliefs. — noAxioms
I can only know that the future is out of my hands, but I can’t say it is set.
All I know is that my present state is not the result of me being free from forces that always precede my present state, and free enough to insert my own choice into the chain and tide of forces that placed chocolate ice cream in my mouth.
But those forces could be random. They could be some other free agent, operating me like a puppet at their free will - who knows? But I need not conclude that my future is set; only that my present was constructed by other than my choices. And that my future is not mine to set by my “choices”.
Maybe this is the same result, but I think it makes it more scientific if a question, and less dramatic with words like “fate”. — Fire Ologist
If determinism is true,then there wouldn't be a meaningful present to be set.If determinism is true then the present is set. — Fire Ologist
You just described dualism. Free will is typically framed in such terms, with the free agent operating outside the physical causal laws. No explanation as to how this agent is itself free from however it works.They could be some other free agent, operating me like a puppet at their free will - who knows? — Fire Ologist
Does the preference influence decisions? Then there's no basis for mocking it, unless I suppose if ones chosen preference influences decisions in a negative way. But even the negativeness of those decisions is a judgement being made by somebody else who likely holds different preferences about what is positive and negative behavior.Some prefer X and other mock X for thinking they can prefer X. The argument there is dead in the water. — I like sushi
Probably, yes. I'm sure you can find anecdotes illustrating the reverse, but in general, there would have been no point in evolving a fairly expensive mechanism for making choices if it didn't make better ones than choices made without said expensive mechanism.noAxioms, you said my decision will be different after deliberation then what it would have been had I not deliberated, will it also be better for having deliberated? — NotAristotle
Again, it depends on how that belief, one way or another, affects one's choices. I personally cannot provide good arguments for this belief one way or another in the determinism issue since I cannot think of how it would make any empirical difference. But somebody else (Not-A above) might hold a belief that it does make a difference, hence the choice of position would make a difference.If it is false it might still be 'better' to believe in compared to believing in Non-determinism. — I like sushi
We do not know so let's not waste our time speculating, and see if we can say more about how one belief may or may not be 'better' than the other. — I like sushi
So, are we really better off believing we are free or not? — I like sushi
We do not know so let's not waste our time speculating — I like sushi
Deliberating adds to the equation. You cannot know that a decision made immediately and a decision made after any amount of deliberation would be identical, even if determinism is responsible in either case.If determinism is true, then there is no good reason to deliberate because such thought will not change how I decide (I must choose, or "act" the same way whether I deliberate or not). — NotAristotle
I hadn't heard of Nozick. But how I experience an event - how I feel about it, and what I chose to do next - are real, regardless of the nature of the event. If I know I have entered a machine, I feel and act in response to whatever input I receive, and my feelings and actions will be influenced by that knowledge.Before elaborating on further nuances, it is time to introduce Nozick’s thought experiment, the “Experience Machine”. This was created as a means of disproving a certain kind of hedonism, but it will serve a good purpose here in developing the problems of choice in a non-determinist human life (a life of choice). Nozick’s experiment revealed that people would generally refuse the perfect lived experience if they knew such an experience was disconnected from reality (in a Matrix movie fashion). Here there is a parallel with the idea of believing in determinism - entering the ‘experience machine’ - in a non-determinist human world. The human choice of entering this machine is effectively a denial of reality in favor of a world where human experiences are determined by the machine rather than chosen directly by the human. — I like sushi
I certainly would. I wouldn't miss the experience.↪Patterner Huh? The point is you would not enter the machine because it was not real. — I like sushi
It's not. You said:↪Patterner This is WAY off topic now. — I like sushi
I disagree, and am telling you why. What is able to be experienced in the real world is the result of certain factors, and quite a bit of it is outside of my control. What is able to be experienced in this machine is the result of other factors, also largely outside of my control. Either way, I don't make the rules/laws of nature, but would be experiencing what could be experienced. Assuming I had the same consciousness and free will in the machine that I have now (regardless of how much I have now), as those plugged into the Matrix do, then the setting of my life isn't important. How I chose to live it is.The human choice of entering this machine is effectively a denial of reality in favor of a world where human experiences are determined by the machine rather than chosen directly by the human. — I like sushi
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