Fornication was frowned upon but surely occurred. — BitconnectCarlos
A quick rule for most: if you think you understand Paul, then you don't. As to fornication, that word does not appear in the Bible. — tim wood
More likely, the person who has done at least some of the work to understand Paul will be modest in his claims — tim wood
And yes, biblical, just not the modern word or sense of the modern word. — tim wood
And translations that are off, or in some cases just plain wrong, part of the problem. — tim wood
Best advice I had about the Bible was to keep in mind that it was not written to me, for me, or about me, and that anyone who claims that it is telling me what to do is taking several leaps that are not in the Bible.
I have no argument with you, nor am looking for one. Maybe we can look at some of this stuff together. Anyway. I invite you to weigh that word "purity," what it means and what it implies, as far out through all the ripples it causes as you can follow. And perhaps how and why it is used, by whom, and what for. Imho, it ought to occur to you that a whole great lot is packed into that word, that at the least is questionable. And yet as one little word it is easy - too easy - to swallow whole. And who so insensitive to the graceful flow of the whole to suggest that maybe, just maybe, purity not only has absolutely nothing to do with anything relevant, but becomes an excuse for and cornerstone of great evil, that most folks aren't even aware of, taking it all as "gospel."Deut 22 deals with a woman maintaining purity before marriage. — BitconnectCarlos
Thank you for this! At Amazon I read most of his almost unreadably long intro., and his commentary defending some of his word choices. Very interesting stuff - and I pretty much buy it. He may not be exactly right all the time, that judgment beyond me, but he does seem to me to be on exactly the right road. There is also the new (1985) Jewish Publishing Service (JPS) Tanakh which claims to be an entirely new translation.I recommend Alter's translation. Word for word. With commentary. — BitconnectCarlos
Anyone who can say this already understands more than do most folks. A digression: in about the eighth grade (early 60s), our Hungarian history teacher asked us who we thought the most influential person of the 20th century was. I think all of us answered Winston Churchill. He considered it, and then submitted Lenin as the creator of the Soviet Russia - a lesson provoking thinking even long after the lesson. And of all time to date may well just be Paul.I certainly don't fully understand fully Paul. — BitconnectCarlos
— tim wood
You may like this series of lectures. — tim wood
Anyway. I invite you to weigh that word "purity," — tim wood
He may not be exactly right all the time — tim wood
Quite so. I'm not on against you - both you're correct, and they're not your words - but more holding up something for a close mutual look. Whatever the word or words, "value," "purity," whatever, the female is commodified and judged as such. And it is here that is one of the places that imo great evil is built into the bible. And it is easy enough to reverse-engineer some seeming sense into it all. But in my accounting, the evils are intrinsic and far outweigh any good, and the much more so today.I can avoid the word and re-state my position. I was simply discussing ancient Jewish and biblical perspectives towards.... — BitconnectCarlos
Began a while ago with the Septuagint and NT. In personal terms very much a work-in-progress. But here are two quick examples of what I call problems. "The Lord is my shepherd I shall not want"; familiar enough.you can start learning... (or greek with the NT) — BitconnectCarlos
Not in every respect medieval Europe lagged, but militarily and administratively it was behind the Ottoman Empire for centuries for instance — Tobias
That is why the Turkish and Mongols were capable of penetrating deep — Tobias
Did you mean with advanced, morally advanced? — Tobias
(It is either Den Haag, or The Hague or La Haye as it is sometimes referred to, but not De Hague — Tobias
Really? Those Romans and Greeks weren't deviants? — BitconnectCarlos
both ancient Greece and ancient Rome were largely indifferent to same sex relations at least where men were concerned — Ciceronianus
Julius Caesar was mocked by his detractors for being "Every woman's man and every man's woman." — Ciceronianus
When did the Genesis version of creation get written down — Sir2u
and when christian missionaries go there — Sir2u
The fact that their DNA remains without external influence — Sir2u
And ideas get spread by ways other than demic diffusion. An unmixed DNA doesn't say much about one's culture.Moreover, most Pygmies now speak Niger-Kordofanian (e.g., Bantu) or Nilo-Saharan languages, possibly acquired from neighboring farmers, especially since the expansion of Bantu-speaking agriculturalists beginning ∼5 kya (Blench 2006).
be good enough to make clear exactly what does happen when I - or anyone - reads a book. — tim wood
And he graciously explained that he could not, because he couldn't read it, making clear that he could not read any of it. — tim wood
And the attempt to reconcile Pagan and Christian beliefs/dogma/thought was already underway with Constantine, c., 330 AD. — tim wood
You referred to the Great Wall, and then, it seemed, suggested that either the Great Wall had nothing to do with thieving hordes — tim wood
But maybe simpler if you just state your point(s) in simple language, then we might see if we agree or disagree on some matter of substance. — tim wood
Afterwards advances in technology were mostly made in the US and Japan. — Tobias
is that it is somehow threatening to your self perception to acknowledge the contributions of other peoples than Europeans — Tobias
there is no Greek person that can trace his heritage back to the ancient Athenians and Spartans is apparently of no concern — Tobias
Does that mean the Japanese person will get Mishima in ways that others cannot? — tim wood
from Ainu in the North to Okinawans in the South — tim wood
To say they're all alike in ways different from other people, that allows them a special appreciation of their own literature withheld from others, while containing a grain of truth, is mainly nonsense — tim wood
books more than a hundred years old are about people who are dead, and about places and things that either no longer exist or no longer exist as they did — tim wood
But at the same time the literature is a door I can go through, and experience and learn from. — tim wood
hay rabdos sou kai hay baktaria sou. autai me parakelesan — tim wood
Ciceronianus is your source on all things Roman — BitconnectCarlos
pedestry was an institutioncustom within ancient greece where younger men would be tutored/groomed by their older mentors — BitconnectCarlos
When Philoxenus, the leader of the seashore, wrote to Alexander that there was a youth in Ionia whose beauty has yet to be seen and asked him in a letter if he (Alexander) would like him (the boy) to be sent over, he (Alexander) responded in a strict and disgusted manner: "You are the most hideous and malign of all men, have you ever seen me involved in such dirty work that you found the urge to flatter me with such hedonistic business?"
Moreover, when Philoxenus, the commander of his forces on the sea-board, wrote that there was with him a certain Theodorus, of Tarentum, who had two boys of surpassing beauty to sell, and enquired whether Alexander would buy them, Alexander was incensed, and cried out many times to his friends, asking them what shameful thing Philoxenus had ever seen in him that he should spend his time in making such disgraceful proposals. — Plutarch
He severely rebuked Hagnon also for writing to him that he wanted to buy Crobylus, whose beauty was famous in Corinth, as a present for him. Furthermore, on learning that Damon and Timotheus, two Macedonian soldiers under Parmenio's command, had ruined the wives of certain mercenaries, he wrote to Parmenio ordering him, in case the men were convicted, to punish them and put them to death as wild beasts born for the destruction of mankind. — Plutarch
The customs instituted by Lycurgus were opposed to all of these. If someone, being himself an honest man, admired a boy's soul and tried to make of him an ideal friend without reproach and to associate with him, he approved, and believed in the excellence of this kind of training. But if it was clear that the attraction lay in the boy's outward beauty, he banned the connexion as an abomination; and thus he caused lovers to abstain from boys no less than parents abstain from sexual intercourse with their children and brothers and sisters with each other. — Xenophon's Constitution of the Lacedaimonians Chapter 2
contrary to nature when male mates with male or female with female — Plato's Laws
I don't see how that is relevant, as the time frame is intermediary between the two events of interest. — Lionino
Long before we started making anthropological investigations of those people. Thus, the results of those investigations may have been caused by contact with outsiders. Not to speak of the Arab slave trade in Africa: — Lionino
One story in Ovid describes the origin of the age-old battle, speaking of a Pygmy Queen named Gerana who offended the goddess Hera with her boasts of superior beauty, and was transformed into a crane.
In art the scene was popular with little Pygmies armed with spears and slings, riding on the backs of goats, battling the flying cranes. The 2nd-century BC tomb near Panticapaeum, Crimea "shows the battle of human pygmies with a flock of herons". — Wiki
I doubt it.
Moreover, most Pygmies now speak Niger-Kordofanian (e.g., Bantu) or Nilo-Saharan languages, possibly acquired from neighboring farmers, especially since the expansion of Bantu-speaking agriculturalists beginning ∼5 kya (Blench 2006).
And ideas get spread by ways other than demic diffusion. An unmixed DNA doesn't say much about one's culture. — Lionino
Well then I think you missed the point, try again. — Sir2u
So the Pygmies reinvented there whole oral history from thousands of years ago just because they heard something knew, very doubtful. — Sir2u
Even if such a fact could be established in comparative religion, they are still a distinct group from Eurasians, and the fact that the myths around the world have little in common with each other would not allow us to say with confidence that the connection between Hebrew and those African tribes is in fact from a common source instead of something that died out in the Eurasian branch and then developed independently again among the Canaanites. — Lionino
And they had contact with the Egyptians long before that. — Sir2u
Again the question, "When did the Genesis version of creation get written down?"
Could it be that the story was already know in Egypt even before someone wrote it down? — Sir2u
Oh dear, so now we are discussing modern times, I am getting confused by your time jumping — Sir2u
Regardless, let's have our way with our fantasies. Romans and Greeks were gay. Yeah. They are still not part of your culture. Are you Greek or Italian, or, at the very least, Mexican? No? So they have nothing to do with you. Make some history of your own so you don't have to take it from others. — Lionino
Make some history of your own so you don't have to take it from others.
Reading something exactly does make it part of my culture
— tim wood
No it doesn't.
— Lionino
You will, then, be good enough to make clear exactly what does happen when I - or anyone - reads a book. — tim wood
Here, let me help you. I don't know how to make brownies. I read a cookbook and learn how to make brownies. Now I know how to make brownies. Get the drift?"I read a book therefore that book is part of my culture".
Just... what? — Lionino
It is now. Is it part of ancient and historical Hungarian culture? Of course not. It is instead a small accretion to it - and maybe for the children who read it, not so small. You would seem to understand "culture" as a kind of fixed artifact, and no doubt there are aspects and parts of culture that are generally accepted as such - this granted although itself being not-so-simple. But that is not the limit or boundary of culture and never was.Harry Potter — a book widely read in Hungary — is not part of Hungarian culture. — Lionino
And here again the spoor of the troll: when asked a question, or to clarify a point, they evade, avoid, attack.But maybe simpler if you just state your point(s) in simple language, then we might see if we agree or disagree on some matter of substance.
— tim wood
My message is stated the way it needs to be stated, — Lionino
It is obvious that critics who continue to bring up this issue of possible influence — https://stellarhousepublishing.com/garden-of-eden-originally-a-pygmy-myth/
Don't mind us my people we just wrote the Bible. — BitconnectCarlos
Hellenism influenced my people. — BitconnectCarlos
Let us speak of these things. Or let us speak instead of the proof (proof, not scant and conditional and specific evidence) that Greeks and Romans were generally sexual degenerates. I don't see proof of that anywhere. Even then, anyone who makes such a claim is making the historical confusion of generalising a period of over 1000 years to appease their personal bias and politics. — Lionino
And here again the spoor of the troll: when asked a question, or to clarify a point, they evade, avoid, attack. — tim wood
I don't know how to make brownies. I read a cookbook and learn how to make brownies. Now I know how to make brownies. Get the drift? — tim wood
It is now — tim wood
You would seem to understand "culture" as a kind of fixed artifact — tim wood
What I mean, most briefly, is that which is not me, that informs and instructs me as to what I may do/think, can do/think, should do/think, while leaving me room to do/think none of it — tim wood
What do you mean by "culture"? — tim wood
I made it up. As for the letter η, if you have an English equivalent I should be glad to use it. — tim wood
And how, exactly - or on what grounds - do you establish what it is that is so exclusively owned? It seems to me that culture is the actual out of the possible that settles on some group, but that in the settling at the same time manifests its capacity to have settled on anyone. Thus undercutting any claim to any exclusivity except for the accident of the historical.My quote is aimed at whoever is trying to claim things that don't belong to them, — Lionino
I think that the problem here is that in modern times, under the christian umbrella, people tend to see so many parts of sexuality as degenerate. The ancient civilizations had a much broader, more relaxed view on such things as shown in much of the writing and art of those times. — Sir2u
Romans would have understood the moral messages contained in these anecdotes. A proper Roman man was supposed to be devoted to the gods, his family, and to the state – not to his belly. Excessive consumption of food was a sign of inner moral laxity. — https://theconversation.com/mythbusting-ancient-rome-the-truth-about-the-vomitorium-71068
It seems to me that culture is the actual out of the possible that settles on some group, but that in the settling at the same time manifests its capacity to have settled on anyone. Thus undercutting any claim to any exclusivity except for the accident of the historical. — tim wood
I know that if I look at my Greek textbooks they will contain different pronunciations for some of the Greek letters. And apparently modern Greek usage doesn't apply. Which means that in terms of the question, you also don't know the basics. The difference between us being that I know I don't know, and you think you do. But again, I asked you straight up for an English equivalent, and you dodged. Not a good look for you!If you don't know that, you don't know the very basics of Greek. — Lionino
Jews may claim Greeks were a factor in their culture, that privilege doesn't apply to folks from other nations. Yet, a factor in a culture isn't the same as part of one's culture. Greece was an inextricable part of Latin/Roman culture, from its inception to the fall of the West, yet Latins saying "Aristotle and Zeus and Perikles are my culture" would be awfully weird, Augustine, Jupiter, and Scipio are their culture instead. — Lionino
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