• Wolfgang
    69
    Universalism not only claims a universal truth of an underlying objective reality, but also proclaims general ethical and moral values based on it, such as those enshrined in the UN Declaration of Human Rights. Who wouldn't sign phrases like, 'Human dignity is inviolable'?
     
     Universalism describes various approaches in philosophy, politics and society that aim at universality and universality. At its core, it is about the fact that certain principles, values, norms or rights apply to all people, regardless of individual characteristics such as origin, culture, religion or gender.
     
     Political universalism emphasizes the universality of human rights. This means that all people, regardless of their origin or situation, have the same basic rights.
     
     There's just one catch. The human rights proclaimed by the French Revolution are directly linked to a certain form of society, which in turn is linked to a certain form of economic activity, namely the capitalist one. The freedom of the individual to exchange his commodity labour-power on the market requires his individual freedom. In this respect, the concept of freedom is directly linked to the capitalist mode of production.
     
     Now one may ask what is wrong with that. First of all, nothing. But this excludes from the outset all other modes of production which are not based on the valorization of the commodity labour-power. Thus, the universalist idea does not apply per se to all human beings. Your claim in this regard is therefore wrong in principle.
     
     Or to put it another way, there may be forms of social and economic coexistence that define human freedom differently than through the isolation of the individual.
     
     Universalism is an expression of Western moral philosophy. The claim that it should apply to all people reflects the way of thinking that existed in colonialism and neo-colonialism and continues to exist today.
     
     The moral imperative is carried in front of it on a shield today, just as the dogmas of the Church were in the past, to justify the expansionist efforts to develop markets and resources. This is morally sanctioned when foreign countries and cultures have been and are being (neo-)colonized without consideration.
     
     The so-called Western values are always invoked when it comes to expanding economic and political influence and justifying aggressive means in the process.
     
     If we look only at the military and paramilitary interventions of the USA after 1945, it becomes clear that this is not about morality or the defense of Western values, but exclusively about economic interests. John F. Kennedy fell victim to these interests when he wanted to end the Vietnam War. By ending the war, he would have done too much damage to the military-industrial complex in the United States. Oliver Stone's film on the subject bears witness to this.
     
     At the beginning of the 20th century, cultural relativism was proclaimed as an alternative to universalism by anthropologists such as Bronislaw Malinowski or Margaret Mead. It was difficult for them to hold his own against the prevailing universalist idea. The accusation that it can lead to tolerance of inhumane practices was contrived, because the principle of respect for other cultures does not include tolerating inhumane practices and does not exclude help for people affected by them.
     
     In the meantime, the universalist discussion of values has taken on dictatorial features. The greater the potential for social and political global conflict, the more vehemently these values are demanded, and their relativization is more rigorously sanctioned. It becomes curious when an attempt is made to deconstruct these values with recourse to them, the values are not to be questioned, but merely to be renewed. The gender debate is a prominent example of how small groups fight for the sovereignty of interpretation, how the mainstream gives in for fear of shitstorms, and thus results in a randomly controlled construction of values that is dependent on the most influential groups at the moment.
     
     Ultimately, universalism is based on an idealistic assumption that came into the world with the Enlightenment and, above all, with classical German philosophy. After that, there is an objective world that exists independently of man and contains the famous Kantian thing in itself, whether knowable or not. This creates an idealized world and uses the term cognition to create the impression that an ideal machine called man stands in opposition to it and that it would be a purely quantitative question to decipher it.
     
     This idea ascribes to man qualities that he does not and cannot have as a biological being. Rather, like any entity, we transform the world into a modality that suits us, which thus becomes a subjective one. In our case, it is a neuronal modal world that we do not recognize in the transcendental idealistic sense, but to which we are adapted in the course of evolution.
     
     Our values arise from the reality of our lives and from our understanding to live peacefully with other peoples and cultures.
     
     Epistemic relativity recognizes that there are many subjective realities that need to be respected. None may be preferred. Freedom of expression is thus not only on paper of interest-based calculations in connection with specific social and economic conditions, but is also independent of ideological ideas.
     
     In Germany, this kind of freedom of expression is currently miles away. Opinions and values are embedded in entrenched ideologies, the non-compliance with which can result in economic and social disadvantages for the individual. Today it feels as if we are living in a dictatorship of values, although their intrinsic value can hardly be lower.
    You have to ask yourself the following questions:
    How free do you feel to express your opinion without facing direct or indirect sanctions?
    Is there enough room for controversial discussions, or are the outcomes of discussions already determined?
    Are certain values taken more important than others, such as those of one's own culture compared to other cultures?
    The answers show the degree of tolerance of a truly democratic society.
    Values are often used as weapons in ideological warfare to disavow the adversary. They can be used in any way and prostitute themselves in this way. They are then empty shells and have nothing to do with the values that have developed in cultures over years or centuries.
    What is freedom, equality and fraternity supposed to mean in a country where a person needs three jobs to avoid starvation, fraternity lives on handouts at best and there can be no talk of equality, where racial discrimination prevails and fascist ideas are spread?
    They are ideals that lack real ground and are easy to say.
    They can be used to silence people, they are traded like any other commodity.
    If you look at the so-called Western values from this point of view, they seem meaningless.
    Peace becomes a dirty word, and those who demand it are vilified.
    The West thinks that its interpretation of values is the only correct one and tries to impose them on everyone else.
    True values arise from the culture of individual societies, they are relative and must be linked to each other in a globalized world by being translated like languages. Universalist values are a means of power to an end.
  • 180 Proof
    15.4k
    True values arise from the culture of individual societies, they are relative and must be linked to each other in a globalized world by being translated like languages.Wolfgang
    Paradoxically, this 'cultural-value relativity' is ancient (i.e. pre-modern, pre-"Enlightenment", pre-capitalist) yet also universalist: cosmopolitanism. A horizontally-integrated (i.e. municipal-centric pluralist > "bottom-up") order contra the prevailing vertically-integrated (i.e. hegemonic / nation-centric globalist > "top-down") order – why throughout "official" history such flourishing milieux have always succumbed to (domestic / foreign) tyrannies of one kind or another and not have prevented or withstood them (and the subsequent "emancipatory" need for the (republican yet imperialist) "Enlightenment" project of "Human Rights" universalism)? And if neither cosmopolitanism nor human rightsism, then what – international communism? anarcho-syndicalism? transnational corporatism? autocratic / theocratic populism? :chin:
  • Vera Mont
    4.3k
    Disclaimer: I did not have the patience to read the entire essay; can only respond to the opening and closing remarks.

    The West thinks that its interpretation of values is the only correct one and tries to impose them on everyone else.Wolfgang

    The West does not think, and all the people who live in this undefined western region do not think with one mind. Nor do they all share the same values, or even interpret specific values in the same way. "The West" is a diverse, incoherent and frequently self-contradictory human construct.

    Capitalism is the currently dominant world economy and all of our infrastructures, both physical and political, are dedicated to capitalist pursuits. But there are strong religious currents in most cultures, which dictate unprofitable values and are at odds with efficient commerce. They are also at odds with one another and inimical to universal human rights and freedoms. The UN declaration would still be valid if both capital and religion went deservedly extinct - and then it might have a chance of prevailing.
  • ssu
    8.7k
    True values arise from the culture of individual societies, they are relative and must be linked to each other in a globalized world by being translated like languages.Wolfgang
    And this should be noted when these values are excepted by for example by members of the United Nations. Many members aren't Western, don't share similar history and have different starting points for how they understand their society from the way Western individualism understands societies. And that does say a lot.

    We often point out our differences and remind ourselves how different others are, but many things are indeed universal. Perhaps the error we make is that when these values are universal, we then deduce that our understanding of these rights and where they come from is "universal" too. Not so. North Korea starts from a different ideology, China starts with a different ideology and Muslim countries naturally start from the faith which isn't Christian.
  • Wolfgang
    69
    Western thinking - of course it exists - has so clogged up people's brains that it takes an immense epistemological effort to rise from the frog's perspective and build up the maximum distance in order to understand these things.
    The power of the factual is immense and prevents us from taking on other perspectives. It also prevents you from wanting to take on different perspectives and from wanting to learn. People resist any epistemological change. That is more than understandable.
  • Count Timothy von Icarus
    2.9k
    If we look only at the military and paramilitary interventions of the USA after 1945, it becomes clear that this is not about morality or the defense of Western values, but exclusively about economic interests. John F. Kennedy fell victim to these interests when he wanted to end the Vietnam War. By ending the war, he would have done too much damage to the military-industrial complex in the United States. Oliver Stone's film on the subject bears witness to this.

    This is not in any way obvious. US foreign policy is the result of values, personal ambition, internal politicking, economics, strategic concerns, and accident. I don't think any attempt to reduce it to one thing, be it "economics," "values," or the personalities of key figures is going to paint a very accurate picture. But it's especially hard to justify this view if the key evidence you point to is a heavily fictionalized, conspiratorial, Hollywood account of events.

    As to the overwhelming influence of the MIC, given their ability to dispatch presidents at will and cover it up through a series of assassinations and widespread manipulations, it is strange how such an omnipotent cabal so steadily lost market share in the US economy over the years, or how they were able to assassinate JFK, but not Oliver Stone.

    Vallone-Graph-1.1.jpg

    At any rate, the relativism you're advancing seems by far and away most popular in the West, and quite popular to boot. I'd imagine its the most popular conception of morals, at least with the younger generation. I do not think you could say this was the case in say Egypt or China.
  • Lionino
    2.7k
    If we look only at the military and paramilitary interventions of the USA after 1945, it becomes clear that this is not about morality or the defense of Western valuesWolfgang

    It is always comical to me this "Western" label. French, German, or generally (Western) European values have nothing to do with Yankee values. Does anyone think that Hollywood and Biden's government is promoting anything that has to do with Europe when they do this?
    Yankees use this "Western" label to associate themselves with European history while bombing the continent for their personal interest when it suits them.
    Let's not even forget that their war on terror (more like war for oil and for Israel) has indirectly caused heinous crimes in Europe.
  • Ciceronianus
    3k
    Oliver Stone's film on the subject bears witness to this.Wolfgang

    If you believe Stone's film is accurate, my guess would be you think De Palma's The Untouchables is as well.

    Be that as it may, my feeling is there are no rights which aren't legal rights. Unless claimed universal rights are enforceable by law, they may be proclaimed by anyone and will mean nothing, in fact. It happens certain legal rights are useful in limiting the power of government. Others can be misused, and promote little more than selfishness. It becomes a question of judging which rights should be made law.
    We haven't judged well, in many cases. That's all, folks.
  • Vera Mont
    4.3k
    Western thinking - of course it exists - has so clogged up people's brains that it takes an immense epistemological effort to rise from the frog's perspective and build up the maximum distance in order to understand these things.Wolfgang

    Kudos on attaining that Olympian perspective!

    OTOH, is it not possible that there are conditions that all human beings - or possibly all sentient beings - desire for themselves? While the 'values' of many cultures dictate that autonomy, security, wellness and opportunity are distributed unevenly among the members of society, nevertheless those members aspire to what their culture denies them. This is why the bravest and most desperate among them escape to what they hope are less oppressive cultures. It seems to me that the UN charter (Which is not a uniquely western idea) names some of these conditions that all people hope for, even if they are not permitted to aspire to.
  • AmadeusD
    2.6k
    I think we live in an attempted dictatorship of values. And one to which I'm not entirely averse. I am somewhat, though, as it's just the standard "tyranny of public opinion" we were warned against, at the very least, 250 years ago.
    Evolving values make sense, and are probably requisite of a decent society, in general - but I think when conversation is a no-no you have to start questioning your premises.
  • Count Timothy von Icarus
    2.9k


    Be that as it may, my feeling is there are no rights which aren't legal rights. Unless claimed universal rights are enforceable by law, they may be proclaimed by anyone and will mean nothing, in fact.

    Won't they mean something in that we can point to the evil being done in their violation? Rights, as the defense of the good, seem like they should exist outside of any given system of laws. Molesting children isn't just bad in contexts where it is illegal, or only in cases where there will be punishment.
  • RogueAI
    2.9k
    Let's not even forget that their war on terror (more like war for oil and for Israel) has indirectly caused heinous crimes in Europe.Lionino

    Oil has always played a big factor, but so did 9/11. It was a tremendous shock to the system. Much of America's policies, including torture, were to make sure another 9/11 didn't happen again. We didn't invade Afghanistan over oil.
  • Count Timothy von Icarus
    2.9k


    Let's not even forget that their war on terror (more like war for oil and for Israel) has indirectly caused heinous crimes in Europe.

    Ah yes, the war to control the vast oil exports of Afghanistan and control the ever potent Afghan-Israeli rivalry. The "war for oil and Israel," makes a little more sense if one looks at Iraq in isolation, but it's hard to imagine that the Iraq War would have happened without 9/11 and Afghanistan. And at any rate, it makes far more sense to replace "Israel" with "Saudi Arabia," given both who the benefits of removing Saddam immediately served and the relation to oil. But the disaster that was Bush II era foreign policy had more to do with hubris and ideology than anything else. Trying to set up liberal democracies in both nations worked directly against the interests of US oil firms, and allowing Iran to dominate Iraqi politics was hardly a win for Israel.
  • Tom Storm
    9.2k
    The freedom of the individual to exchange his commodity labour-power on the market requires his individual freedom. In this respect, the concept of freedom is directly linked to the capitalist mode of production.
     
     Now one may ask what is wrong with that.
    Wolfgang

    Plenty of people have thought there was something wrong with this ( with very limited freedom present) hence unions and progressive parties and reformers in most capitalist lands.

    I’d say the dominant value in the west is probably neoliberalism and as for values like rights and inclusion, etc aren’t these often just for decoration? They are the stories we tell ourselves. Isn’t hypocrisy and conflict what lubricates culture?

    How do you tell the difference between theoretical values and what happens in practice?
  • NOS4A2
    9.3k


    The refusal of Westerners to follow so-called Western values and the hypocrisy that results in their behavior isn't much an argument against the values themselves. It's true: human rights and their universal application are routinely violated by those who express those same values, and this has largely been the case since their conception; but their double-standards and misapplication proves only that they do not believe in such values, not that the values are at fault. The fact that there are slaves, for instance, is no argument against abolition.

    At any rate, It reads to me that instead of applying universalist values to individuals you are applying universalist values to societies and cultures. Societies, not people, have the right to freedom, speech, conscience, respect, and so on. Societies, not people, are sovereign. Societies, not people, should have rights. We should not impose our values upon the society, but the society has the right to impose its values on other people. As such, these values are a means of power to an end, but only to the end of state power.
  • Ciceronianus
    3k
    Won't they mean something in that we can point to the evil being done in their violation? Rights, as the defense of the good, seem like they should exist outside of any given system of laws. Molesting children isn't just bad in contexts where it is illegal, or only in cases where there will be punishment.Count Timothy von Icarus

    The law is one thing; morality is another. A law will be a law regardless of whether it's moral or not; regardless of whether it prohibits immoral conduct or allows it by not regulating it.

    Molesting children should be illegal (prohibited by law). If it isn't, though, then it won't be a crime. It won't be subject to punishment by the state, nor will it be subject to civil action. In such cases, we may say "there oughta be a law." We may say what we claim are universal rights, or natural rights, should be recognized by the law, but if they're not that's all we're saying.

    So, documents or pronouncements like the U.N. Declarations of Human Rights, or the Declarations of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen adopted by the French National Assembly, may indicate what people think should be the case, be need not be the case. The Consulate and the First French Empire weren't very faithful to the Declarations of the Rights of Man in practice. Many members of the U.N. disregard the Declaration of Human Rights with some frequency.
  • AmadeusD
    2.6k
    Won't they mean something in that we can point to the evil being done in their violation?Count Timothy von Icarus

    This seems to beg it's question. The 'evil' seems to consist in the violation of a right. If so, without hte right, there is no evil.

    We can just look at different rights afforded in different jurisdictions to note that there is, at the very least, different conceptions of what a right "outside of law" might consist in. Ultimately I think it is a fact that rights are a legal tool for enforcing moral norms, and naught else. It would be great to know about some inalienable rights, not conferred from on high - but that seems incoherent to me too.
  • Count Timothy von Icarus
    2.9k


    This seems to beg it's question. The 'evil' seems to consist in the violation of a right. If so, without hte right, there is no evil.

    No it isn't.

    P1: Violating natural rights is evil.
    P2: It is (relatively) easy to determine when natural rights have been violated.
    Conclusion: Natural rights are useful in identifying evil because it is easy to identify when they have been violated.

    Your objections seem to be to P1 and P2, but the premises don't assume the truth of the conclusion.

    It would be great to know about some inalienable rights, not conferred from on high - but that seems incoherent to me too.

    How so? It's incoherent to say people can't sever moral individual's obligation to treat them with some basic level of dignity? To be clear, the question posed by natural rights theorists has never been that natural rights cannot be violated, it's that they should not be violated. E.g., "people have in inalienable right to freedom so they should not be taken as slaves or allowed to sell themselves into slavery." Seems coherent to me.
  • Lionino
    2.7k
    No clue what you mean by that, but I have a clue that Amerigo Vespucci is rolling and gagging in his grave.

    And at any rate, it makes far more sense to replace "Israel" with "Saudi Arabia," given both who the benefits of removing Saddam immediately served and the relation to oilCount Timothy von Icarus

    Israel and oil are metonyms for whatever wicked interest it is at the time. Whichever example we choose, no matter how ludicrous, is still more sensible than the Adam Sandler-tier comedy that the biggest war criminal in the world is drone striking Lybia to generously spread the values of democracy and sexual liberation — values that were hammered upon Europeans in WW2. I don't think it can get more evil than that, "we are bombing your civilians because we care about you!".

    Categorical proof that that they maliciously and dishonorably lie through their teeth: https://twitter.com/NuryVittachi/status/1762363106922049973

    Let me make this clear enough: European do not step and dance on their own flags, Europeans do not kneel to social minorities, Europeans do not tear down their own statues, Europeans do not bring children to cross-dresser strip clubs, Europeans do not think social well-being is "socialism", Europeans do not look down upon other cultures, Europeans know how many continents there are, Europeans do not think sexual and racial classification is based on feelings. If these values are "western", fine, but remember then that Europe is a far far eastern continent.
  • AmadeusD
    2.6k
    natural rightsCount Timothy von Icarus

    Question: Begged.

    There are no natural rights.


    That's the only possible source for 'natural rights'. Hence, it's incoherent to pretend we have some kind of alienable right... from... nowhere.
  • Banno
    25.2k
    The power of the factual is immense and prevents us from taking on other perspectives.Wolfgang

    Yep, truth keeps getting in the way.
  • Count Timothy von Icarus
    2.9k


    Question: Begged.

    I can only recommend looking up what question begging actually is. In your first post, you seem to have mistaken my pointing out a use for natural rights theory as a justification of it, but even there the problem you seem to think you've identified is circular reasoning, not question begging.

    That's the only possible source for 'natural rights'. Hence, it's incoherent to pretend we have some kind of alienable right... from... nowhere.

    What's the only possible source for natural rights? Natural rights theory is old and diffuse and they are justified in many ways. E.g., when natural rights are established in the context of social contract theory, the claim is that the rationale that justifies the social contract is such that it is impossible to justify the alienation of certain rights. Or the classical justification is that such rights are established by divinely mandated natural law, in which case enforcement is carried out by primarily through damnation rather than through political means.

    Historically, natural rights aren't only enforced by existing law. They were often used as justification for abrogating existing law, e.g., the Declaration of Independence — motivating new enforcement mechanisms.
  • RogueAI
    2.9k
    No clue what you mean by that, but I have a clue that Amerigo Vespucci is rolling and gagging in his grave.Lionino

    You have no clue what I mean when I say 9/11 was a big factor in American policy and it's not all just about oil? What is confusing about that?
  • AmadeusD
    2.6k
    I can only recommend looking up what question begging actually isCount Timothy von Icarus
    but even there the problem you seem to think you've identified is circular reasoningCount Timothy von Icarus
    This may be true... You've given no reason to take 'natural rights' seriously, so teh rest of the syllogism isn't apt (in my view.. just outlining clearly what my objection is).

    What's the only possible source for natural rights?Count Timothy von Icarus

    God or similar.

    I have to say, the use of a theory isn't particularly interesting if it's trying to justify something which on its face, is absurd (on my view). 'natural rights' isn't a coherent concept, so I'm unsure how I'm supposed to get on with theories that begin with something I can't understand how a rational person would involve.
  • NOS4A2
    9.3k


    I have to say, the use of a theory isn't particularly interesting if it's trying to justify something which on its face, is absurd (on my view). 'natural rights' isn't a coherent concept, so I'm unsure how I'm supposed to get on with theories that begin with something I can't understand how a rational person would involve.

    It’s quite simple. You consider human nature and the natural world and derive a set of rights therefrom, for example, rights that would allow one to survive and live a life of dignity and happiness. You confer these rights and defend them in others. Pretty easy stuff.
  • AmadeusD
    2.6k
    You consider human nature and the natural worldNOS4A2

    Ok, so we're just thinking about subjective stuff, okay... with you so far...

    and derive a set of rights therefrom,NOS4A2

    This is, entirely, a non sequitur. Making up things people should and shouldn't do is a non sequitur here.

    rights that would allow one to survive and live a life of dignity and happinessNOS4A2

    So, again, subjective stuff. Where's the 'right' coming from? Your mind? And enforced by?

    A right is something enforceable. As Ciceronianus has made clear, the idea of a right in lieu of an enforcing authority is either redundant or incoherent. I take the latter. Like - it literally doesn't exist. It isn't there to be 'derived'. You're just looking at stuff, and thinking about what you'd like.
  • NOS4A2
    9.3k


    Yes, rights come from men, believe it or not. Yes, men can enforce rights. Are you not of the species? The idea that rights can only come from men of authority or officialdom is both ridiculous and obsequious.
  • AmadeusD
    2.6k
    Yes, rights come from men, believe it or not. Yes, men can enforce rights. Are you not of the species? The idea that rights can only come from men of authority or officialdom is both ridiculous and obsequious.NOS4A2
    I'm not sure you're grasping the immense problem for your account i've laid out:

    If, as you note, rights only come from men (i.e the species Man) then they are artificial products of minds. A strong man is an enforcing authority - think of the family unit, circa 1950 or whatever time suits your conception.
    SO, where are these 'natural' rights coming from? Well, the answer is the exact same place all rights come from: They are made up in the minds humans.
  • NOS4A2
    9.3k


    All rights come from men. Natural rights come from man’s reason in consideration of nature.
  • AmadeusD
    2.6k

    Cool, so we're getting somewhere.
    Natural rights theory states that these rights are derived, directly, with impugnity, from human nature - Universal, fundamental and inalienable. However, there is literally no such right.

    Can you please make that make sense for me?
  • NOS4A2
    9.3k


    That’s right. For instance, I know human beings need to express themselves, so I confer upon on you the right to free speech. In doing so I do not censor you and defend you when others try to do so.
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