A set of properties A supervenes upon another set B just in case no two things can differ with respect to A-properties without also differing with respect to their B-properties. In slogan form, “there cannot be an A-difference without a B-difference”.
So, in physicalist philosophy of mind we should like to say something like: "you cannot have variance in a subject's mental state (A) without some change in their physical constituents (B)." Two subjects that are physically identical must have the same mental properties/experiences. However, crucially this is not a one-to-one relationship. Subjects might have different physical properties and yet have the same experiences (as measured over some given duration). Mental states are multiply realizable in terms of physical states. — Count Timothy von Icarus
the above definition is wholly inadequate to do the job supervenience is brought in to do. — Count Timothy von Icarus
we want to use superveniance to explain in some way how the mental is in some way dependant on the physical — Count Timothy von Icarus
superveniance famously fails to ground such ontological dependence — Count Timothy von Icarus
It seems like the two are mutually dependent such that changes in M entail changes in P AND neither current states of M nor P determine future states of M or P. — Count Timothy von Icarus
B-Minimal properties remove the possibility of multiple realizability, perhaps they also obviate the need for it? — Count Timothy von Icarus
:100: :up:we want to use superveniance to explain in some way how the mental is in some way dependant on the physical
— Count Timothy von Icarus
Supervenience isn't an explanation in itself. It's more of a category. It's a way of categorising models, and the MODELS are the things that have the potential to explain. — flannel jesus
What is one of these "properties" supposed to be, anyway, if it isn't defined by its location in space-time?
Perhaps that's why I don't see the problems that you see. The problems you point out are where supervenience fails to explain something, or fails to rule out things that would be *bad* explanations. I don't see that as a problem, because I have much smaller ambitions for what supervenience is supposed to be. — flannel jesus
As in, "wouldn't it be nice if we could avoid that circularity?" — Count Timothy von Icarus
Consider a painting of a :flower:. It shouldn't be controversial that the :flower: is supervienant on the brush strokes that compose it. You cannot change the :flower: without changing the brush strokes. But, you can change the brush strokes without changing the :flower: .
If you are defining superveniance with B-minimal properties or P Regions this is not the case. Any change in P, the (relevant) brush strokes (or their properties) would, by definition, be a change in the experience/aesthetic qualities of the painting. Multiple realizability is sacrificed by using these methods to define superveniance. — Count Timothy von Icarus
Ha, not to go back on my OP, but I am now thinking that B-Minimal Properties do not rule out multiple realizability in an important sense. — Count Timothy von Icarus
If you are defining superveniance with B-minimal properties or P Regions this is not the case. Any change in P, the (relevant) brush strokes (or their properties) would, by definition, be a change in the experience/aesthetic qualities of the painting. Multiple realizability is sacrificed by using these methods to define superveniance. — Count Timothy von Icarus
I don't think any of these attempted precisions are aimed at ruling out multiple realizability. Multiple realizability is a feature, not a bug of supervenience, and I haven't seen anyone actually trying to rule it out.
I don't see how that follows. Supervenience with P-regions or B-minimal properties is still an asymmetric relation: There can be no M-differences without P-differences, but the reverse does not hold.
A physical entity is part of the P-Region if and only if it is essential to M. This facet is what rules out multiple realizability. If a physical entity can be removed from the system and it doesn't affect M then by definition it in not included in the P-Region. We are now in a situation where P cannot vary unless M also varies (P is in fact defined in terms of M so that this is the case). — Count Timothy von Icarus
A physical entity is part of the P-Region if and only if it is essential to M. This facet is what rules out multiple realizability. If a physical entity can be removed from the system and it doesn't affect M then by definition it in not included in the P-Region. We are now in a situation where P cannot vary unless M also varies (P is in fact defined in terms of M so that this is the case). — Count Timothy von Icarus
Let M be the property of an object P being able to depress a pressure sensitive plate. You can remove or add matter to P, and M still holds. Moreover, you can replace P with a different material with the same mass, and M still holds.
So, this version of the P-Region has the same sort of multiple realizability that B-Minimal properties do, but at the cost of becoming virtually the same thing. — Count Timothy von Icarus
The way I understand it, we are talking about the actual spatio-temporal region involved in producing M given any one actual instance of M. — Count Timothy von Icarus
Any change in the amount of force needed to define the on/off state (any change in M) requires that B-min(P) also change. — Count Timothy von Icarus
Here, M is perfectly multiply realizable, because B-min(P) is multiply realizable: all sorts of things can apply pressures greater and lesser than y.
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