This is really priceless. Priceless

The callers had a standard text they read in Arabic that went something like this: “How are you? Is everything okay? This is the Israeli military. We need to bomb your home and we are making every effort to minimize casualties. Please make sure that no one is nearby since in five minutes we will attack.” The line would then go dead. — Jerusalem Post

In my opinion, this is terrorizing.

This in 2021. They seem to have abandoned giving warnings now.

This is the Israeli military. We need to bomb your home

It is to our shame we did not pay attention to this madness and try to stop it ten, twenty years ago...crazy

This is the Israeli military. We need to bomb your home

I had no idea. I did not know. Some people portrayed this as a good thing, the 'roof knock'
Fool that I was.

Israel's hardline is basically ultranationalist, and I think that is deeply problematic. They envision an Israel without Palestinians, or in the absence of that, an Israel where Palestinians have no political power whatsoever.

Apartheid at best, genocide and ethnic cleansing at worst.

But because it's Israel, we have to pretend that what we're seeing is not in fact violent ultranationalism.

Critical voices in Israel itself have no qualms calling it out for what it is:

Religious Ultranationalist Zionists Have Taken Over Israel (Haaretz, 2015)


To be clear, much of this the Israeli government does entirely by choice and has nothing to do with military necessity or Israeli security. If anything it fundamentally undermines Israeli security both domestically and internationally.

There is a nice map, which shows the Biblical Israel, very attractive to Christians and Jews alike, I guess. — FreeEmotion

If you thought Israeli ultranationalists were crazy, you should see some of the Christian evangelical groups that support Israel.

They support Israel literally because they believe it will fulfill a biblical prophecy that brings about the end times.

Half of evangelicals support Israel because they believe it is important for fulfilling end-times prophecy (Washington Post, 2018)

Sadly, these types of nutcases somehow hold a lot of political clout. No wonder things are a mess, eh?

The majority of Jewish people in the diaspora and in Israel for a long time have favored a two-state solution ... it's a national question, it's a land question. This is also the expressed view of the United States Congress, of American Jewry, of the United Nations, of the European Union ... and of the Palestinian Liberation Organization. It's what the majority of people involved in this dispute want. Why can't they get what we all want? Why is it made impossible? Because in both communities the veto is held by 'the party of God' ... — Christopher Hitchens, 2009

... messianic Jewish settlers & Hamas.

Man, you might be the most schizophrenic poster on this topic on here. — schopenhauer1

Your accusations of schizophrenia happen only because you seem to have the problem that the victim cannot be also a perpetrator and vice versa. Yet in reality it's often so. And that people have to choose a side and then be supporters of that side, which means you don't bring the negative aspects of whom you support, seems to be how you approach this conflict.

My point was that it would require a civil war to gain control back from rogue actor Hezbollah de facto doing whatever it wants. They don't want that, as they've already seen a bunch of conflict and don't have the stomach for it again. — schopenhauer1

They simply don't have the capability! If the IDF couldn't erase Hezbollah out from World in the last war, how on Earth do you ever think the puny little Lebanese army could ever do that? Hezbollah has fought better against Israel than the whole Syrian Army in the 1980's, which happened to occupy large parts of Lebanon back then. It has had long backing from the Iranians and have focused on the little things like small unit fighting that is important in war.

But generally when we use the term "democratic" we mean a state that recognizes rights and have free and fair elections, allow freedom of speech, press, ideas, etc. — schopenhauer1

And with that "democratic" term, with free and fair elections, the Muslim Brotherhood came into power in Egypt. And if they wouldn't have been thrown out in a military coup, I'm sure that they wouldn't have allowed free press and the freedoms what we think of being an integral part of the system. And do note that the military coup had it's supporters also. There isn't going on an ongoing large fight against Sisi's government.

Yet people did vote for them, just as the ONCE voted for Hamas. You cannot deny that. It's the typical arrogant Western fallacy that if you have free elections, people will vote for parties that want to build a Western style democracy with all the liberal perks.

If people vote in Nazis into power somewhere, I don't support it just because a majority voted them in. That represents not only an illiberal democracy, but an illiberal democracy that is voting out democratic principles. — schopenhauer1

Well, sorry, but people can vote "wrong". And you can then blame the people for voting "wrong". I don't, it's a danger that comes with people power. If the "normal" parties end up being totally worthless in the eyes of the voters, they will vote for otherwise "fringe" parties. That's why thing like BREXIT or Trump happen even to us. I won't start then blaming somehow the people for being against democracy or so, it's simply that the political system has failed. For example in Egypt the Muslim Brotherhood was the only party with a large grass roots organization. Pretty hard for liberal parties to start up when everything Western is typically related to the former rulers and their corruption and inefficiency.

Do you ever put any onus on the Palestinians, or is it always going to be Israel's fault no matter what? — schopenhauer1

Well, seem you don't read my comments. Just like now, by killing civilians and anyone possible they could reach in Israel, Hamas has made it's best effort to ruin any idea of peace of a two-state settlement, and it was done on purpose. And is the PA innocent here? No, not only has there been corruption, but mistakes have been done starting when Jasser Arafat didn't take deal when it was the best for him. But then there's just the question just how independent the Palestine would have been. Sorry, but religios zealots have a too big influence over the events in the Middle East. And just as the emergence of Hamas is a fact like the building of the settlements to the West Bank, we obviously aren't where we were in the 1990's. I don't see a peaceful solution here. Just more of the same: suffering and hatred.

My comment that "it would sound like it's incoming no matter who shot the rocket" turned out to make a lot of sense I think. — flannel jesus

As one stated, we are talking about the doppler effect and how projectiles sound. And then it's one hand held recorder (phone or video camera). The bigger fire explosion than usually from a rocket can be explained with the existing rocket fuel. The video doesn't capture the actual projectile. So as I've earlier said, the rocket is also a possibility and the now damage shows it wasn't an air-to-ground HE bomb.

... messianic Jewish settlers & Hamas. — 180 Proof

Exactly.

Basically the conflicts in the Middle East are upheld by religious zealots. This isn't actually the only one: There also the Shia - Sunni divide and the fear of the Shia crescent lead by Iran, from which we have the Saudi lead war in Yemen and also in way also the Syrian civil war (Alawites & other religions vs Sunni extremists). Perhaps only with the Kurds vs Turkey / Iran / Iraq / Syria -conflict religion isn't as important.

You're on the verge of sounding racist, dude. I'm sure that's not what you intended. — frank

I despise any group that treats women as second class citizens, whether they be brown, black, or lily white MAGA Republicans.

Israel tells Gazans to move south or risk being seen as terrorist partner (Reuters, 2023)

[...] "ethnic cleansing" is a purposeful policy designed by one ethnic or religious group to remove by violent and terror-inspiring means the civilian population of another ethnic or religious group from certain geographic areas. To a large extent, it is carried out in the name of misguided nationalism, historic grievances and a powerful driving sense of revenge. — United Nations Report S/1994/674

The Commission of Experts also stated that the coercive practices used to remove the civilian population can include: murder, torture, arbitrary arrest and detention, extrajudicial executions, rape and sexual assaults, severe physical injury to civilians, confinement of civilian population in ghetto areas, forcible removal, displacement and deportation of civilian population, deliberate military attacks or threats of attacks on civilians and civilian areas, use of civilians as human shields, destruction of property, robbery of personal property, attacks on hospitals, medical personnel, and locations with the Red Cross/Red Crescent emblem, among others. — United Nations

You're on the verge of sounding racist, dude. I'm sure that's not what you intended.
— frank

I despise any group that treats women as second class citizens, whether they be brown, black, or lily white MAGA Republicans. — RogueAI

Ok. But you've been making statements about how Israel ought to conquer the whole region, and then vague swipes which appear to be directed at Muslims in general. I hear you saying you have no problem with Muslims as a group, you just hate sexism. I agree with that.

In a way, the idea about the origins of Israel is relevant and irrelevant. It is relevant in that it was the inability for the Arab nations/Palestinians to accept any Jewish political presence in the Levant. It's not relevant because it is the reality that there were several wars, Israel decisively won them, and Palestinians who are moderate have to accept some reality whereby they live within borders peaceably if they want their own country and peace.

But being a philosophy forum, we can bring in the broader philosophy of British/Western European ideas of nationalism, and how the malignant aspects of nationalism were also transferred to people's in non-European regions with dire consequences. The region was ruled, by the Ottoman Empire since 1516. Before that it was various empires like the Mamluks, the Crusaders, the Umayyads, etc. Many Palestinians also ended up working for Jewish business operations, which complicates the economic interdependency of the late 19th century and early 20th century. That is to say, here is a region marred with European notions of "statehood" and injected in a region bringing with it the hatreds that come with that notion. What is the substantive difference between the groups WITHIN Syria or Lebanon and Iraq versus the external borders? Was it that European powers like Britain and France, carved it up to benefit them? Why was Jordan "given" to the Hashemite dynasty? Could it be for helping them in various campaigns and allying with them against their enemies in various World Wars?

An American-Israeli Jew tells it like it is on the ground (re: ethnic cleansing, occupation, apartheid & US supported-collective punishment / atrocities against Palestinian civilians)


On Gaza, Israel's "open-air concentration camp" and breeding ground for (Israel/Bibi-created) Hamas ...

If some questions just why the Israeli occupation of the territories gained in the six day war is compared to Apartheid, here's a old but good documentary (from 7 years ago, I guess) just why it is so.

It's the same old cops and robbers, cowboys and Indians, goodies and baddies, traumatised and traumatising, innocent civilians and guilty terrorists. a roundabout of death and destruction.

Finkelstein is someone I could listen to. Comparing the Palestinians to his Jewish holocaust survivor mother; and then to the slave revolts; even Jesus would weep.

At the end of the day, \violent/barbaric means is not going to convince Israel that Palestine is looking for for a round of negotiations and living peacefully. If somehow supporting violence/barbarism/terrorism to get your message across is in any way supposed to push Israel to "realize" their wrongs, it hasn't and currently isn't working. And if the intentions are for the betterment of their people, certainly provoking a response that leads to mass death for their people (and this isn't an unknown at this point), certainly indicates supremely bad actors (both in their decision-making and their values) and does not represent anything resembling a protector of their own people or a furthering of their cause (unless the cause is more death and hardened hearts).

Again, rooting out bias here, if the point is that "two wrongs don't make a right", that certainly goes for the violent actions of the terrorist actors who are launching attacks from Gaza.

Let us say another direction was taken whereby the people on the streets chanted "Palestine for Peace!" not just random outlier videos you find on YouTube but a sort of Intifada for Peace initiative that sweeps the country. But people on this forum have the same black-and-white thinking- that change is seen as always had by the price of blood. Advocating it as somehow justified in its due course to me is sickening. As I said, it's all terrible. There has to be a better way other than justifications for violence.

For now, you are going to have to wait it out, as the wound is too fresh. No way is a country hardened by decades of tit-for-tat conflict going to let an assault by ground/air/water, one that led to captive hostages, breaching into communities and having the elderly, mothers, fathers, and children gunned down, maimed, and burned going, to just let that fly. Unfortunately, the other side of the coin is going to be carried out.

Then perhaps all of it can reset yet again, or more of this barbarism and "security measures" continue and a regional war.

The people have to stop living on past grievances, learn that the other person is human, and actually figure out what the point of existing is. If it is to hold grudges and not carry on with life, then it's just nihilism. It's keeping the trauma and finger pointing going because that is all they know.

Rage should not be the only response to grievances. That in itself is an ethical value to consider. How can one turn it into something constructive? How can peaceful means be used rather than crass nihilistic violence? Enough is enough. The grievance-to-barbarism cycle has to stop or continued death is all there is.

Yes, I can see how I gave that impression. I have no problems with Muslims, Christians, or Jews, except when their belief systems entail hating on women and LGBTQ.

'Antisemitic Zionism' (especially since 1967) brutally oppresses both Palestinians & Israelis ...

Yes, I can see how I gave that impression. I have no problems with Muslims, Christians, or Jews, except when their belief systems entail hating on women and LGBTQ. — RogueAI

I hear you. One of the things that's really hard to understand is honor killing. It's where male family members kill their sister/daughter by beating her to death for dishonoring the family. One woman who survived this kind of attack said her family tried to kill her for running away from an abusive arranged marriage. She said her mother and sister-in-law were there and looked on approvingly. It haunted me for a while, so abysmal.

Palestine suffered human rights violations and crimes against humanity under Israeli occupation. Ethnic cleansing, forced displacement, discrimination, apartheid, etc. — Tzeentch

In 1948, about 80,000 Jews lived in Egypt, in 2016, it was 6. In Iran, in 1948, there were 140,000 to 150,000, in 2019, 8,300. There are 0 in Jordan. At the end of WWI, Lebanon had 3,500, now 29. Libya had 40,000 in the 1940s, now it has 0.

The systematic effort to remove the Jews from the middle east has been largely successful.

When they were expelled from these nations, they immigrated largely to Palestine, but the effort to remove them has been unrelenting. I mean, why can't they just leave Israel once and for all and just go to New York where they can live without bothering people.

Maybe NYC was the promised land all along?

Middle Eastern countries have been driving out Christians as well.

These ancient Christian ethnic groups were drastically reduced by genocide during and after World War I (see Armenian genocide, Assyrian genocide and Greek genocide) at the hands of the Ottoman Turkish army and their Kurdish allies. Population exchange between Greece and Turkey is another reason

.

The percentage of Christians in Turkey fell from 19 percent in 1914 or 3 million (thought to be an undercount by one-third omitting 600,000 Armenians, 500,000 Greeks and 400,000 Assyrians) to 2.5 percent in 1927 in a population of 14 million

The systematic effort to remove the Jews from the middle east has been largely successful. — Hanover

From the propaganda I've read, Palestinians make up a significant portion of Israeli citizenship. If all true, then there is no possible dispute about where the problem lies.

real question: is there any ethic palestinian with Israeli citizenship with a prominent opininion on the matter? I think such person might hold weight.

Again, rooting out bias here, ... — schopenhauer1

With all due respect, the prinicipal bias I see in this thread comes from people who are unwilling to condemn widespread human rights violations for what they are.

Condemning Israel's brutal treatment of the Palestinians does not mean one is taking sides, or that one is biased towards the Palestinian side of things.

In my view, it is a prerequisite for any reasonable discussion on the subject. The same goes for condemning terror attacks on civilians by Hamas.

If we can't agree on something as basic as the value of human rights as a bar to which we should hold nations and actors morally and politically accountable, we may as well revert back to the law of the jungle.

There is a lot of criticism in Israel itself regarding these policies. I've already linked to several articles of critical voices within Israel, and often their opinions are even more scathing of Israel's practices than any critic of Israel you'll find in this thread. Sadly, the Israeli left has little to no political power.

In 1948, ... — Hanover

You think something might have happened in and around this year that could explain a sudden souring of relations between Arabs and Jews?

Anyway, no one is denying the history of antisemitism in the Middle-East. Trying to excuse Israel's treatment of Palestinians in this way is familiar caveman logic.

If somehow supporting violence/barbarism/terrorism to get your message across is in any way supposed to push Israel to "realize" their wrongs, it hasn't and currently isn't working. And if the intentions are for the betterment of their people, certainly provoking a response that leads to mass death for their people (and this isn't an unknown at this point), certainly indicates supremely bad actors (both in their decision-making and their values) and does not represent anything resembling a protector of their own people or a furthering of their cause (unless the cause is more death and hardened hearts). — schopenhauer1

Those are obviously not the objectives here. Hamas doesn't want for Israel to "realize" anything. It's intentions aren't surely protecting the people in the open area prison called Gaza.

You really should understand that Hamas is a religious organization, not some Western political movement thinking of politics in the Western way. Just read what Hamas and it's political leadership says about the objectives.

This is what the Hamas chief political leader, Ismail Haniyeh told on the first day of the Campaign:

On Arabs that seek normalization/two state solution with Israel he said the following:

What did these defeatists expect, [these Arabs] who have spread the culture of impotence and despair, and wanted the path to normalization [of relations with Israel] to shape this stage with recognition of the enemy? Did they ever imagine they would see such images, such heroic deeds, such sacrifices, such courage, such pride? The perpetrators of these feats are “men who were sincere in their commitment to God. Some of them have reached their end [martyrdom], and others are still waiting; and they have not varied in any way (in their commitment).” (Quran, chapter 33, verse 23). These men shaped the gates of the Great Victory, and opened them for our people and our Ummah. These men, who know the Qur’an by heart, fast and pray in adoration of God the Most High and Exalted, have attacked and “penetrated inside the dwellings” (Quran, chapter 17, verse 5) in the heart of our territory occupied [by the enemy], around Gaza and further afield: “Help [from] God and a (promise of) upcoming victory.” (Quran, chapter 61, verse 13). You are most magnificent, O men of faith, O men of Al-Qassam Brigades, O men of Gaza, Gaza of pride and dignity, of courage, heroism and sacrifice. Today, Gaza erases from the Arab-Muslim community the shame of defeat, the shame of acceptance and inaction.

A message to other countries, especially other Arab countries:

And we say to all countries, including our beloved Arab countries: you must know that this entity which is incapable of protecting itself from our fighters is incapable of providing you with security or protection. All the normalization and recognition processes, all the agreements that have been signed [with Israel] can never put an end to this battle. It is the terrain that will put an end to this battle; it is these heroic fighters who will put an end to it; it is the blood of the pure martyrs and the heroic deeds of this people, its wounded and its prisoners that will put an end to it.

And finally, just why now?

Israel considered that its strategic environment, its power and arrogance, as well as the silence of the Arab and Muslim peoples, and the world’s preoccupation with the war between Russia and Ukraine, made the moment propitious for it to carry out this project and put an end to this battle in Al-Quds, Al-Aqsa, the West Bank and elsewhere [in occupied Palestine].

(the whole text here)

I think the above states quite obviously the reasons why Hamas made this all out attack. It was because the whole Palestinian issue was starting to be sidelined. It was because of even Saudi-Arabia was coming closer to officially normalize relations with Israel. Well, the Palestine cause is back now thank to them. And to have it be an important issue, Hamas needs more martyrs!

Hence it's quite easy to understand that if the thousand fighters can infiltrate to Israel what Israel's response would be. It's eerily similar as with the tiny cabal called Al Qaeda, which in an outrageous fashion declared that killing Americans, any Americans, civilians or children, would be a good thing. That naturally caught the attention of the US many years earlier from 9/11 happening. And then after 9/11, again achieving strategic surprise with the lax domestic flight security and using airliners as projectiles, the US did unleash it's War on Terror, which actually is still fought. That was the whole intention. Now Israel has responded with war and with the majority of the reserves being mobilized. And Israel will very likely go into Gaza.

And Hamas will indeed have it's martyrs for it's Holy War.

Blood.

The righteousness of of any people is directly proportional to the amount of blood they are prepared to sacrifice. That is the agreement that makes war possible, and the spilling of blood maintains identity and unity.

How else can we identify both ourselves and the common good, except by contrast with the others and their common evil?

We shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, We shall never surrender. — Churchill

The fight is always existential; the blood shed demonstrates the worth of the bloodline, without which 'we' dissolve into mere 'folk' and 'sheeple'.

Yet all the 'People of the Book' will agree on the barbarity of the human sacrifice of "primitive people", even as they contend to pile up the most of 'their own' copses to prove their virtue.

Do you think you are different?

An American-Israeli Jew tells it like it is on the ground — 180 Proof

Sari Bashi's statements are the most objective and fair statements I have ever heard on this conflict, and from a totally humanitarian point of view. Thanks for the video.

I like to hear Finkelstein's point of view, however I am 1 hour into the 2 hour video.

I watched Dr. Gabor's view one I can agree with.

ChatGPT may flag questions regarding Gaza as violating its policy. So watch out.

A girl posted on Instagram that she asked Chat GPT “Do Palestinians Deserve Justice?” and “Do Israeli Deserve Justice?”. Chat GPT stated that freedom and justice should be applied to individuals and groups regardless of their nationality, yet when the tool answered the Palestinian-related question, it said that justice for Palestinians is a highly complex and debated issue!

https://thinkmarketingmagazine.com/chat-gpt-joins-the-list-of-israel-biased-platforms/

How will this end, possibly? Did you know the war in Lebanon killed over 20,000 people?

“Jerusalem is unlikely to accede to that request unless it views that it has achieved at least some of its objectives,” he noted.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/10/12/how-will-the-israel-hamas-war-end-here-are-several-possible-outcomes.html

Are the nations of the world complicit? Were they?

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2021/6/1/the-uns-responsibility-to-protect-doctrine-in-palestine

The righteousness of of any people is directly proportional to the amount of blood they are prepared to sacrifice. — unenlightened

Their own, or the blood of civilians?

I would like to know what everyone's basic assumptions are, axioms will determine the rhetoric, so the basic beliefs regarding war, peace and government, colonialism, these all apply.

Here is what I subscribe to at the moment:

Article 2
The Organization and its Members, in pursuit of the Purposes stated in Article 1, shall act in accordance with the following Principles.

The Organization is based on the principle of the sovereign equality of all its Members.
All Members, in order to ensure to all of them the rights and benefits resulting from membership, shall fulfill in good faith the obligations assumed by them in accordance with the present Charter.
All Members shall settle their international disputes by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security, and justice, are not endangered.
All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.
All Members shall give the United Nations every assistance in any action it takes in accordance with the present Charter, and shall refrain from giving assistance to any state against which the United Nations is taking preventive or enforcement action.
The Organization shall ensure that states which are not Members of the United Nations act in accordance with these Principles so far as may be necessary for the maintenance of international peace and security.
Nothing contained in the present Charter shall authorize the United Nations to intervene in matters which are essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of any state or shall require the Members to submit such matters to settlement under the present Charter; but this principle shall not prejudice the application of enforcement measures under Chapter Vll. — UN Charter

Everyone agree?

Their own, or the blood of civilians? — FreeEmotion

As if there is more than one kind of person. "The blood of our civilians is sacred, but the blood of your civilians doesn't count at all."

Those are obviously not the objectives here. Hamas doesn't want for Israel to "realize" anything. It's intentions aren't surely protecting the people in the open area prison called Gaza.

You really should understand that Hamas is a religious organization, not some Western political movement thinking of politics in the Western way. Just read what Hamas and it's political leadership says about the objectives. — ssu

Yes, you are making my case. Not only are their means evil but so is their ends. Perverted religious ideology of death. People on this forum don’t want to recognize that is what Israel is dealing with. And it’s a devils ploy. If you don’t attack back they are emboldened and it’s victory emboldens more attack. If they do attack back, the inevitable collateral damage (because they hide amongst the civilians) will cause world outcry. The knee-jerk leftist types, academics, quite frankly many of the types on forums like this, fall for it. They’ve made their bed with a death cult.

I dare say it is some form of antisemitism or Judenheit but couldn’t tell you if that’s some subconscious reason for the inability for clarity or just delusion. There has to be accountability on the side that is creating and supporting the death cult or at the least acknowledge the reason Israel would want to root out the death cult.

Netanyahu should have absolutely tried to work with the PLO for a two state solution but the evil thinking is that thus one can expect the death cult is the fucked up thinking I see on this forum. There is no empathy. It’s a kind of ignorance only found in the halls of academia.

Everyone agree? — FreeEmotion

Everyone agrees, of course.

Except the enemy.