I didn't say that. It's simply that you seem committed to a version of the truth that doesn't very closely resemble my own experience, observation and understanding of human behaviour. — Vera Mont
The problem isn’t someone’s particular spiritual or religious belief so much as the psychological stability of the person, and their empathy and the ability to see outside of their own ‘bubble’ (as the link you provided refers to). — 0 thru 9
I have always found you to be more open and not restricted to 'my own experience, observation and understanding of human behaviour.' — universeness
I don't like the term 'versions of truth'. I accept different observers can report different truths about what they observed from their reference frame, but those are part of the same truth imo, only the different frames of reference, create the badly termed 'versions,' of the same underlying truth. — universeness
Another very big, unattended if.What is important is which of us is more in line with the truth. Do you think being fanatical about truth, is a negative, if what is professed does turn out to be true? — universeness
I think the word fanatic should be applied more accurately. — universeness
Yep, The good the bad and the ugly, all claim to be working in accordance with the will of their chosen god or gods. :roll: From good folks like Gandhi, and Martin Luther King, to bad influencers like shamen, witch doctors, druids, popes, priests, imams and rabbis. all the way to ugly horrors like Hitler and Jack the ripper. — universeness
Clearly, however, you do not offer that, universeness, and you are not open to considering my position step by step because you apparently "despair" of where it might lead to. — 180 Proof
Like me, you have not tapped into all information available, so like me you will continue to keep learning until the day you die, as will I.What else have I got to go on? Wishes? Dreams? Science fiction? — Vera Mont
So, with that in mind, we keep talking to each other, until we stop wanting to kill or war to impose our will and we can finally dump our garbage leftovers, from our ancient 'survival of the fittest' imperative, forever, and good riddance to it.If you want to call that a frame of reference, fine, then we each have one: a version of the truth. We each have some information, observation, experience and reflection on which to build this model, which is a work in constant progress, fated to be forever incomplete. — Vera Mont
We continue to seek common ground, that's the only reason I am part of on-line discussion. To see example of folks debating on-line, finding common cause and common ground and I do see such happening. Not normally in folks who are diametrically opposed but in those who are 'not fully cooked' yet or are open to new try new flavours in their cooking.My model doesn't match you model; therefore, one of is must be out of alignment. — Vera Mont
I think the word fanatic should be applied more accurately.
— universeness
Not in jest? I'll try harder to be serious, shall I? — Vera Mont
Have you ever done something you knew was wrong? — Athena
In some cases I would use 'to err is human,' in other cases my responses, actions, decisions have never become acceptable to me. I would respond differently if I had the chance again. 'We learn from our mistakes,' can be a very bitter pill, even though it's true.What did you do to make that acceptable to you? — Athena
I could imagine myself being a suicide bomber when I was communicating with a Palestinian and an Egyptian in a forum. I saw their point of view and felt strongly that Zionism was intolerable and must be stopped. I wrote a letter to the editor opposing Zionism and men called me. One even cried as he thanked me for that letter. They were worried about my safety as they had bad experiences with organized Zionism. Thankfully I have not lived in the region under the power of Zionism, so I was not moved to act on my thoughts other than communicate a different point of view about Zionism and what it has done to Palestinians. — Athena
I have always found you to be more open and not restricted to 'my own experience, observation and understanding of human behaviour.' I hope I am too. I don't like the term 'versions of truth'. I accept different observers can report different emphasis or aspects of truths, about what they observed from their reference frame, but those are part of the same truth imo, only the different frames of reference, create the badly termed 'versions,' of the same underlying truth.
It's the never observed from any reference frame, 'versions of truth' (lies), that folks such as maga evanhellicals and other such fanatics, peddle, that bother me most. I think the word fanatic should be applied more accurately. — universeness
When and where in the last half millenium did most, or many, human beings get such an education? And why did such an education fall out of favor with educated leaders (i.e. movers & shakers) so much so that, apparently, "we are not getting" it any longer? :chin:Seriously, I believe humans are capable of good reasoning based on truth, but I also think that requires an education that we are not getting. — Athena
I did not state or imply this. :roll:If you think that ASI is impossible for us to comprehend then how do you know it won't be completely benevolent towards all lifeforms. — universeness
In some cases I would use 'to err is human,' in other cases my responses, actions, decisions have never become acceptable to me. I would respond differently if I had the chance again. 'We learn from our mistakes,' can be a very bitter pill, even though it's true. — universeness
So, with that in mind, we keep talking to each other, until we stop wanting to kill or war to impose our will and we can finally dump our garbage leftovers, from our ancient 'survival of the fittest' imperative, forever, and good riddance to it. — universeness
Do you think Gandhi's solution was a wise one? It's certainly wiser than anything I could have come up with. — universeness
How do we get at the truth? — Athena
There is nothing but horror on both sides of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. I know there are many contentions that feed the conflict, but the religious one is amongst the worse imo.
When I hear the individual stories of what savagery is meeted out, to individual victims, I again can only find a little solace in silent incredulity. I am a white man, living in a (by comparison with Gaza or Israel) safe Scotland, financially ok, and no major troubles in my life. I just have no experience of facing such levels of horror in my life. — universeness
‘Pick a side, and fight like hell against the evil enemies’ seems to be the common ‘meme’.
Which leads to dehumanizing everyone and falling prey to propaganda, conformism, and mind control. — 0 thru 9
For a myriad of possible reasons, imo:why would C take any notice of A? — 180 Proof
People who kept learning and talking to one another, who had no urge to kill or dominate, have always been among humankind. Sometimes they were teachers, healers and sages; sometimes they were leaders. — Vera Mont
I of course, completely disagree.Your view of 'ancient' peoples seems to be a caricaturish as your vision of future man. — Vera Mont
No, but I would claim that there is a chronological line of improvement, in the human experience, for more and more of the human population of Earth, from our beginnings until now.As if there were some kind of chronological line from inferior to superior forms of man. — Vera Mont
I accept that is how you see things and such leads you to a statement like:We still have that organization. It is still in the cycle of internal and external conflicts. It is so entrenched, in fact, that - contrary to the optimistic notion entertained by early SF writers - even a shared existential threat cannot deflect its factions from warring among themselves. — Vera Mont
I don't believe we have changed all that much in the last 30,000 years. — Vera Mont
When I heard that line in the movie, I was appalled. I imagined the life of that child, forced to be Muslim in a Hindu family, resented and reviled by his siblings and classmates, disdained or actively loathed by the mother in whose life he was meant to take the place of her own child, daily, hourly reminded of his differentness. I wouldn't be surprised if he grew up to be a suicide bomber. — Vera Mont
I remember when the fighting in Ireland was in the news daily and there were other such conflicts based on prejudice against "them" and being totally confused. How do people know who is one of them and who is when everyone looks the same? It totally mystifies me how people can imagine "we" are not like "them"? Really? How are "we" different from "them"? I like the forum rule- Attack people's ideas not the people.
I like the golden rule that exist in all religions- "Do unto others as you would have them do to you" I try to live by my Grandmother's 3 rules.
We respect all people because we are respectful people. It doesn't matter who the other person is because this is about who we are.
We protect the dignity of others. (that is really hard when someone else appears to be deliberately offensive)
We do everything with integrity. — Athena
Who do you think he might have grown up to suicide bomb, moslems, hindus or just 'people?' — universeness
What advice would you have given the man? — universeness
Adopt as many orphans as you can provide a safe and loving home for. Why complicate things or perpetuate religious indoctrination? — Vera Mont
He killed the child not just because it was a child but because it was a moslem child.
I think Gandhi's challenge was to prostrate yourself before that which you came to hate so much, that you would choose to equal the atrocity committed against you, by committing the same atrocity to a random child, labelled as, moslem. — universeness
As Epicurus teaches, the gods which are perfect and blissful beings are very far away from – indifferent to – 'imperfect beings' like us and even the cosmos itself. :fire:Ok, Let me try it this way, does fastest, most intelligent, strongest, closest to the four omnis, always result ina need to impose totalitarian or autocratic control/dominion over anything less? — universeness
You ask such as:
why would C take any notice of A?— 180 Proof
For a myriad of possible reasons, imo:
True, it's not my m.o., except when warranted by your silly "myriad of possible reasons" for why any attosecond (10-¹⁸ s) ASI would ever take any notice of any comparatively unthinking milli/deci-second (10-³/10-¹ s) lumpen biomass such as an individual (or swarming) specimen of the h. sapiens species. Just more special pleading "Roddenberryesque" anthropocentric utopianism on your part which, if I may say so, mate, is quite illogical! (\\//, :nerd: )I know that hand waving points away is not normally your style ...
What does 'moral' mean in this context? By what standards? For what reason? What would impel it?The closer a system gets to the 4 omnis, the more moral it would become. — universeness
Not as it has applied to human agents through history. Certainly not to human sentiments regarding insects. Why would it apply to a non-human?Does 'with great power comes great responsibility,' not ring true for you? — universeness
Humiliation does not cure hatred. — Vera Mont
I think that Mahatma Gandhi's primary aim was to generate understanding. — Existential Hope
At least by giving him the chance of being adopted, Mahatma Gandhi allowed for the existence of the possibility of not one, but two lives seeing a new day. — Existential Hope
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