• javi2541997
    5.2k
    Don't worry; I promise this will be my last answer to you.

    I wish I could avoid your stupid and ignorant comments, but I cannot, because TPF doesn't have the option of silent people like you. Nonetheless, I am just waiting patiently for your ban. If the mods have banned more clever users (such as Agent Smith, Prishon, or Bartricks) than you, I don't understand why they haven't banned you yet. 

    But good things take time, and I am fully aware that moderators will ban you sooner or later. I wish you the best! :smile:
  • universeness
    6.3k

    You have a lot of inner vitriol to deal with. Me getting banned from TPF will not help you with your general state of mind. It would/will be a very minor event for all concerned. You obviously don't wish me all the best. That final sentence demonstrates your inability to control yourself. Get some therapy!
  • universeness
    6.3k
    Thank you for sharing that informative video. If you find some free time, I would once again suggest that you watch that documentary.Existential Hope

    Just finished watching the doc. Ravish Kumar is a brave man. The documentary confirmed some of my worse fears about the Modi mob. It's a very common recipe and totally from the 'how to promote fascism' mentality. Use rampant nationalism and stoke religious divisions as much as possible. Screams of "God bless Mother India" and "death to Pakistan" reverberate and echo down through the annuls of our bloody history, all the way back to 'God bless our tribe" and "death to your tribe."
    At least you as a Hindu and me as an atheist have common ground in our condemnation of such.
    The end of the documentary seemed to offer some hope for Mr Kumar's journalism, in that he gained a prestigious award for his efforts.
  • Existential Hope
    789
    It's also amusing that many of these people absolutely despise Mahatma Gandhi (the person who probably did the most to keep the country united while bringing it to freedom) and actually praise his assassin. So much for loving "Mother India". Nevertheless, hope for the truth's victory will always remain. Satyameva Jayate (truth alone triumphs) is India's national motto. Thank you for watching the documentary.
  • universeness
    6.3k

    I think the fact that these national horror stories are happening in so many countries right now, suggests, that our species is approaching another major nexus of change. The run up to WW II saw a great deal of global horror regimes form as well, but there are different rules now. Even crazies like Putin, Modi, Trump et al, know that in m.a.d, they perish as well. I think what is happening globally may well be the darkest before a new and better dawn, but it may take a while yet, and we may have a lot of horror to deal with first.
    I am just watching the news in the background at the moment, about the unrest in Iran, due to the anniversary of the murder of Mahsa Amini. One female protester recording on her phone, "We will not go back, we are not afraid of them any more, we will not go back!" The documentary you highlighted, shows yet another attempt to rule and direct a population through fear. I again am reminded of Gandhi's words:
    d882e467df0ac9eea3cf6e068aff3910.jpg

    Addition: I think quotes from your link such as:
    While attacking the Congress, Pragya Singh Thakur, BJP MP from Bhopal, hailed Nathuram Godse, who assassinated Mahatma Gandhi, as a "patriot".
    Will be the kind of rock a group like the BJP and characters like Mr Thakur, will perish on.
    Such dimwitted attacks, eventually backfire on the attackers, imo.
  • Existential Hope
    789
    :100: :up:

    Your reply reminded me of an old Hindi song. Here is the link to it: https://youtu.be/NufQfRt0uCQ?si=LInmOpDSe0VXy0Jh

    Sadly, there aren't any subtitles, but this English translation may be somewhat helpful:

    maut kabhee bhee mil saktee hai,
    DEATH CAN BE MET AT ANY TIME,

    lekin jeevan kal naa milegaa,
    BUT LIFE WON’T BE FOUND NEXT TIME,

    marne waale soch samajh le
    O YOU WHO IS ABOUT TO DIE! THINK OVER,

    phir tujh ko yeh, pal naa milegaa..
    THEREAFTER, YOU WON’T FIND THIS MOMENT EVER!

    raat bhar ka hai mehmaa.n andheraa,
    DARKNESS IS THE GUEST JUST FOR THE NIGHT,

    kis ke roke rukaa hai saveraa,
    WHO CAN HOLD BACK THE MORNING BRIGHT!

    raat bhar ka hai mehmaa.n andheraa,
    DARKNESS IS THE GUEST JUST FOR THE NIGHT,

    kis ke roke rukaa hai saveraa,
    WHO CAN HOLD BACK THE MORNING BRIGHT!

    raat bhar ka hai mehmaan.n andheraa...
    DARKNESS IS THE GUEST JUST FOR THE NIGHT!

    raat jitnee bhee sangeen hogee,
    AS MUCH AS THE NIGHT IS MORBID,

    subha utnee hee rangeen hogee,
    THAT MUCH WILL THE MORNING BE SPLENDID!

    raat jitnee bhee sangeen hogee,
    AS MUCH AS THE NIGHT IS MORBID,

    subha utnee hee rangeen hogee,
    THAT MUCH WILL THE MORNING BE SPLENDID!

    gham naa kar gar hai baadal ghaneraa,
    IF THE CLOUD IS CONSIDERABLE, DON’T BE GRIEVED,

    kis ke roke rukaa hai saveraa,
    WHO CAN HOLD BACK THE MORNING BRIGHT!

    raat bhar ka hai mehmaa.n andheraa...
    DARKNESSS IS THE GUEST JUST FOR THE NIGHT!

    lab pe shikwaa naa laa ashq pee le,
    DON’T BRING COMPLAINT TO THE LIPS, DRINK UP THE TEAR!

    jis tareh bhee ho kuchh der jee le,
    WHICHEVER WAY, FOR SOME TIME MORE, WITH THE LIFE ADHERE,

    lab pe shikwaa naa laa ashq pee le,
    DON’T BRING COMPLAINT TO THE LIPS, DRINK UP THE TEAR!

    jis tareh bhee ho kuchh der jee le,
    WHICHEVER WAY, FOR SOME TIME MORE, WITH THE LIFE ADHERE,

    ab ukha.Dne ko hai gham ka Deraa,
    SORROW’S CAMP IS ABOUT TO SEVER

    kis ke roke rukaa hai saveraa,
    WHO CAN HOLD BACK THE MORNING BRIGHT!

    raat bhar ka hai mehmaan.n andheraa...
    DARKNESS IS THE GUEST JUST FOR THE NIGHT!

    aa koee mil ke tadbeer soche.n,
    COME, TOGETHER LET’S SOME TACTIC DEFINE,

    sukh ke sapno.n kee taabeer soche.n
    THE OUTCOME OF THE PLEASANT DREAMS, LET’S DIVINE,

    aa koee mil ke tadbeer soche.n,
    COME, TOGETHER LET’S SOME TACTIC DEFINE,

    sukh ke sapno.n kee taabeer soche.n
    THE OUTCOME OF THE PLEASANT DREAMS, LET’S DIVINE,

    jo teraa hai vohee gham hai meraa,
    THE SORROW YOU’VE IS THE SAME AS MINE,

    kis ke roke rukaa hai saveraa,
    WHO CAN HOLD BACK THE MORNING BRIGHT!

    raat bhar ka hai mehmaa.n andheraa,
    DARKNESS IS THE GUEST JUST FOR THE NIGHT,

    kis ke roke rukaa hai saveraa,
    WHO CAN HOLD BACK THE MORNING BRIGHT!

    Source: https://nasir-eclectic.blogspot.com/2010/05/588-rafis-philosophical-song-raat-bhar.html?m=1
  • BC
    13.3k
    I have come across some of this information elsewhere, but it's a nice video presentation.
  • universeness
    6.3k

    Hope filled lyrics! The woman in the video, played her role well. A dark, stormy, tear filled night, but tomorrow is another day. I have watched some testimony of Jewish survivors of the holocaust and as intensely grim as their words about what they went through were, they nonetheless spoke positively about a future. Some used the words 'This to shall pass,' as words that had a lot of meaning and hope for them.
  • universeness
    6.3k

    Thanks for having a look at it.
    You should watch the vid about Ravish Kumar that @Existential Hope posted. I think you will find it a very familiar story and perhaps you might reconsider:
    So, I don't have a stake -- zero investment -- in what India or Bharat calls itself.BC
  • universeness
    6.3k

    I know this is off topic when considering your OP but have you saw this, in the News here, today?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66848041
  • Existential Hope
    789
    I did. I hope that we will get to the bottom of this. If true, I suppose that we can congratulate our government for making India the new Russia or China. If false, this would go down as needless controversy that battered the relationship between India and Canada.
  • universeness
    6.3k

    Also, if true, it may expose Modi a little more, as the tyrant I think he is. It may reign him in a little and cost him some of his support or, it could encourage him to take more risks and 'go for broke!'
  • Existential Hope
    789
    Or it could give more ammunition to "decoloniality" crowd that is keen to distance India from the West and the so-called Western values in the name of saving the nation/civilisation. It's strange to me that we have reached a point where seemingly intelligent people are questioning one of the names of our country—the same name that had inspired our freedom fighters and that has reflected our nation's international identity for centuries. People come and go, but the influence of ideas (both constructive and destructive) persists. What we needed was a sincere reflection of the past that would have enabled us to weed out the negative aspects of the foreign influence while integrating that which was good. Whatever is happening, I believe that isn't wholly reasonable.
  • Existential Hope
    789
    https://www.india-seminar.com/2002/513/513%20ashis%20nandy.htm

    This is an old but quite rich analysis of the person leading India right now. This was written by Ashis Nandy who is a prominent Indian political psychologist and social theorist.
  • universeness
    6.3k

    I had heard of the violence between Sikhs and Hindus before and I knew about the attacks on the Sikh golden temple etc but I had not realised there was a Sikh movement that wanted their own state called Khalistan. Is this a significant movement?
  • Existential Hope
    789
    It never had the support of the majority of the Sikh population. It did rise in popularity during the 80s amongst certain Sikhs when some extremists rose in popularity (which was the height of the violence you referred to). Nowadays, the movement is primarily restricted to some individuals in the West. India has even had a Sikh Prime Minister (Dr Manmohan Singh). However, if we keep going down the path of "us" vs "them", we could reach a precarious situation. This is what people like Mahatma Gandhi understood.

    As that article I shared with you is a fairly old one, please do let me know if you have any trouble accessing it.
  • universeness
    6.3k
    As that article I shared with you is a fairly old one, please do let me know if you have any trouble accessing it.Existential Hope

    I will have a look at it tomorrow. Going to sign off for now. :smile:
  • universeness
    6.3k

    A very grim, hard hitting article. It describes how the differences between people, especially poor people, (as you say, who are easily manipulated into a them and us mentality), is used to get them to fight each other, rather than unite and fight the real causes of their economic poverty, no significant control over the means of production, distribution and exchange. The opening exemplifies this in it's comparison between events in Hindu majority Gujarat with the ethnic clashes in Rwanda and Bosnia. Religious difference is a very easy, emotive and efficient way to manipulate poor people into killing each other.

    "THE massive carnages at Rwanda and Bosnia have taught the students of genocide that the most venomous, brutal killings and atrocities take place when the two communities involved are not distant strangers, but close to each other culturally and socially, and when their lives intersect at many points. When nearness sours or explodes it releases strange, fearsome demons.

    Those shocked by the bestial or barbaric nature of the communal violence in Gujarat would do well to read some accounts of the carnages in Rwanda and Bosnia. In both cases, the two communities involved were close to each other and ethnic cleansing took the forms of a particularly brutal, self-destructive exorcism. And the same thing happened during the great Partition killings in 1946-48. The ongoing death dance in West Asia, with the Arabs and Israelis locked in an embrace of death, is another instance of the same game."


    I know that even something as seemingly benign as a campaign for a name change for a city or a country can be manipulated into 'them' and 'us' based rioting and I do think that's what Modi's purpose is. He does want to promote violence between Muslims and Hindus, imo.
    In Britain, it's not as easy to get folks to riot based on religious differences, although it can be an underlying factor. Riot's here like the one's in Brixton and Toxteth in 1981, were to do with economic disparity due to Thatcher's policies and police relationships with the black community in those places.
    But there are still similarities in all examples of rioting, where people are maddened enough to destroy their own community environment, because much of it is privately owned.

    It's the extreme violence towards people who are not in your tribe/faith which is so shocking!

    This situation has come about not because the Inter-Services Intelligence or the ISI of Pakistan – omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent like God himself, according to many Indians – has planned it that way. Nor because the minorities have been the main victims in the recent riots. This situation of civil war has arisen because minorities now know that they cannot hope to have any protection from the state government. Lower-level functionaries of the state government have been complicit with rioters many times and in many states. But this is probably for the first time after the anti-Sikh riots of 1984 that the entire state machinery, except for some courageous dissenters among the administrators and in the law-and-order machinery, has turned against the minorities.

    The minorities of Gujarat are by now aware that, for good or worse, they will have to prepare to protect themselves. This is a prescription for disaster. It will underscore the atmosphere of a civil war and create a new breeding ground for terrorism. More than Operation Blue Star, the anti-Sikh riots spawned terrorism in Punjab in the 1980s; the two decades of rioting in Gujarat has by now similarly produced the sense of desperation that precedes the breakout of terrorism.


    When things get as bad as described below, (Warning: only read the extract below from the article, if you want to read about another example of how savage the 'them' and 'us' mentality can manifest) can philosophers or democratic socialists or atheists or scientists, find a permanent solution to such human atrocity, committed on other humans? No god seems able to. So we only have the revulsion felt by all decent humanity, as our motivation to prevent the horrors described in the article and specifically in the extract below.

    Reveal
    ‘Numbed with disgust and horror, I return from Gujarat ten days after the terror and massacre that convulsed the state. ... As you walk through the camps of riot survivors in Ahmedabad, in which an estimated 53,000 women, men, and children are huddled in 29 temporary settlements, displays of overt grief are unusual. ... But once you sit anywhere in these camps, people begin to speak and their words are like masses of pus released by slitting large festering wounds. The horrors that they speak of are so macabre, that my pen falters... The pitiless brutality against women and small children by organised bands of armed young men is more savage than anything witnessed in the riots that have shamed this nation from time to time during the past century...

    ‘What can you say about a woman eight months pregnant who begged to be spared. Her assailants instead slit open her stomach, pulled out her foetus and slaughtered it before her eyes. What can you say about a family of nineteen being killed by flooding their house with water and then electrocuting them with high-tension electricity?

    ‘What can you say? A small boy of six in Juhapara camp described how his mother and six brothers and sisters were battered to death before his eyes. He survived only because he fell unconscious, and was taken for dead. A family escaping from Naroda-Patiya, one of the worst-hit settlements in Ahmedabad, spoke of losing a young woman and her three month old son, because a police constable directed her to "safety" and she found herself instead surrounded by a mob which doused her with kerosene and set her and her baby on fire.

    ‘I have never known a riot which has used the sexual subjugation of women so widely as an instrument of violence as in the recent mass barbarity in Gujarat. There are reports every where of gangrape, of young girls and women, often in the presence of members of their families, followed by their murder by burning alive, or by bludgeoning with a hammer and in one case with a screw-driver.’

    Gujarat disowned Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi long ago. The state’s political soul has been won over by his killers. This time they have not only assassinated him again, they have danced on his dead body, howling with delight and mouthing obscenities. The Gandhians, in response, took out some ineffective peace processions, when they should have taken a public position against the regime and the Nazi Gauleiter ruling Gujarat. One is not surprised when told by the newspapers that the Sabarmati Ashram, instead of becoming the city’s major sanctuary, closed its gates to protect its properties.
  • Existential Hope
    789
    Thank you for reading the article. It does paint a rather grim picture. I believe that this portion was also very revealing:

    "More than a decade ago, when Narendra Modi was a nobody, a small-time RSS pracharak trying to make it as a small-time BJP functionary, I had the privilege of interviewing him along with Achyut Yagnik, whom Modi could not fortunately recognise. (Fortunately because he knew Yagnik by name and was to later make some snide comments about his activities and columns.) It was a long, rambling interview, but it left me in no doubt that here was a classic, clinical case of a fascist. I never use the term ‘fascist’ as a term of abuse; to me it is a diagnostic category comprising not only one’s ideological posture but also the personality traits and motivational patterns contextualising the ideology.

    Modi, it gives me no pleasure to tell the readers, met virtually all the criteria that psychiatrists, psycho-analysts and psychologists had set up after years of empirical work on the authoritarian personality. He had the same mix of puritanical rigidity, narrowing of emotional life, massive use of the ego defence of projection, denial and fear of his own passions combined with fantasies of violence – all set within the matrix of clear paranoid and obsessive personality traits. I still remember the cool, measured tone in which he elaborated a theory of cosmic conspiracy against India that painted every Muslim as a suspected traitor and a potential terrorist. I came out of the interview shaken and told Yagnik that, for the first time, I had met a textbook case of a fascist and a prospective killer, perhaps even a future mass murderer."

    When things get as bad as described below, (Warning: only read the extract below from the article, if you want to read about another example of how savage the 'them' and 'us' mentality can manifest) can philosophers or democratic socialists or atheists or scientists, find a permanent solution to such human atrocity, committed on other humans? No god seems able to. So we only have the revulsion felt by all decent humanity, as our motivation to prevent the horrors described in the article and specifically in the extract below.universeness

    Mahatma Gandhi, as a Hindu, was able to use his religion to not only elevate himself (by taking the Hindu Vedāntic view of seeing the ultimate reality everywhere to its logical conclusion and by defending the idea of Ahimsa), but also others. It was because of this that the rioters in Bengal stopped not by guns, but by his presence.

    https://www.deccanherald.com/india/gandhi-the-one-man-army-behind-the-great-calcutta-miracle-2646644

    His panpsychist and panentheistic idea of God was also tied with karma. As you read in that article, the Gandhians (and Nehruvians) have been in a state of decline for a long time. While the Congress party's rule remained, they felt little need to make the ideas of Mahatma Gandhi and Pandit Nehru relevant (or, to be more accurate, present them in a more relevant manner) to the new generations. I remember the way we used to study about Mahatma Gandhi in our school. Instead of attempting to grasp the man in a holistic way, all we were given were facts that were to be remembered for an exam. Inadequate understanding of the founders of any nation is dangerous, and it isn't surprising that we now see a plethora of people believing misinformation about Mahatma Gandhi. Pandit Nehru was able to steer the nation towards progress despite his desire to not let the state be associated with religion. None of this would have happened without meaningful actions. The time for change (at all levels) is now. Taking democracy for granted is not an amazing idea.
  • Existential Hope
    789
    It's the extreme violence towards people who are not in your tribe/faith which is so shocking!universeness

    I think that the core problems are extremism and dogmatism. I remember talking with a few communists who told me about the feeling of violence that used to rise within them whenever they met a well-off person. I was especially surprised by the fact that many of these rich people had actually gone to great lengths to help these people, but the hostility remained as the distinction between "us" and the "other" was so rigid.

    Edit: Also, I find it humourous that plenty of young Indians curse the socialism of Pandit Nehru and others while Swami Vivekananda, who was possibly the most influential Hindu thinker to have existed in the last two centuries (alongside Mahatma Gandhi) and who is repeatedly considered a hero by the far side of the right wing, was actually in favour of socialism.

    "I am a socialist not because I think it is a perfect system, but half a loaf is better than no bread."

    —https://vivekavani.com/cxii-mary-letters-swami-vivekananda/

    Then again, this isn't shocking in view of the fact that they can manage to downplay the significance of the following words:

    "For our own motherland a junction of the two great systems, Hinduism and Islam — Vedanta brain and Islam body — is the only hope."

    —https://www.swamivivekananda.guru/2017/02/19/vedanta-brain-and-islam-body-only-hope-for-our-motherland/
  • universeness
    6.3k

    We are broadly of the same mind regarding Modi and regarding what needs to be pursued to prevent the horrors described in the article you posted and the attempts to silence more rational minds, such as that of Ravish Kumar, in the video doc you posted. I can only hope that more TPF members will post their views on this stuff, on your thread here. I personally think it's very good, if a discussion on a name change, can expand into the much more serious, but related areas of realpolitik and what people face on a daily basis in communities all over the world. Surely philosophy is an integral part of that. If it is not, then philosophy is a sheep, imo.
  • Existential Hope
    789
    I wholeheartedly agree. I believe that there there are very few things in the world (which includes philosophy) that are "just" what they are without having any connection with something else. The giant house can be built by curiously diminutive bricks.
  • Hanover
    12.2k
    On the other hand, critics say that this is a divisive and diversionary action that will needlessly detach the country from a considerable part of its own history.Existential Hope

    Names matter. My mother attended Robert E. Lee High School and was a proud Rebel, but that's no more. The winners get to choose the names: Ho Chi Minh City versus Saigon, Istanbul versus Constantinople, New York versus New Amsterdam, Her/She versus they/them, The Washington Commanders versus the Washington Redskins, and even Israel versus Jacob.

    A name serves to protect the current status quo and it is for that reason the name change follows the revolution. If India is in a state of revolution over its past, the push for the name change is but a symptom of that revolution. The battle lines will likely arise in all sorts of places, with the name being one area for the focus, but I'd think too much time shouldn't be spent defending the flag, the official colors, or the other labels, but instead of fighting for or againt whatever it is that is the true source of the battle.

    That is, if India's politics are sufficiently oppressive that they've lost popular support, the flag is going to fall as a consequence, and it seems misguided to just stand around the flag trying to hold it high, as if the battle is actually over the literal flag.
  • Existential Hope
    789
    Thank you for the comment.

    In our case, this isn't as much about changing the name as it is about removing one of the names (one that has been used to identify the country for centuries, including by those who fought for our freedom). Revolutions can lead to peace and progress, but they can also turn the ship towards the opposite direction. Of course, the flag alone is not enough, but in a society that is heavily influenced by symbols, it cannot be left alone either. For if it falls, it's possible that it will have enough force to form a crack into the already weak wall in front of the pole. It is true, however, that this is but the first step.
  • Hanover
    12.2k
    For if it falls, it's possible that it will have enough force to form a crack into the already weak wall in front of the pole. It is true, however, that this is but the first step.Existential Hope

    You're pointing to a weak foundation that prudence would dictate protecting so that the entire structure won't fall. The problem is that the foundation is weak because there are those who see no advantage in supporting it because it doesn't promote their interests.

    It's like telling the disenfranchised to work harder for their paltry pay and to support a system that helps their oppressors because if they push back too hard they'll have even less. It's a hard argument to make to those motivated by fairness over comfort.

    My comments are generic and not focused on India's particular history or present day situation because I don't know enough about day to day life in India or where its fault lines are. I just see it as a universal dilemma, where you have to decide between pragmatics and justice. One hopes justice is chosen over control, but typically it's a mixture of both, at least in liberalized countries, which means some semblace of a healthy society would include challenges to the status quo.
  • Existential Hope
    789
    You're pointing to a weak foundation that prudence would dictate protecting so that the entire structure won't fall. The problem is that the foundation is weak because there are those who see no advantage in supporting it because it doesn't promote their interests.Hanover

    That is certainly the perception many have, which is what fuels the popularity of the government. At the same time, I do feel that it is possible to manipulate someone into either believing that they have an interest that they previously didn't, or to give them a "solution" that is going to cause a larger problem sooner or later. As you rightly said, challenges are inevitable. Still, I do hope that they can be met while they are manageable.
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