And why am I now being accused of not being a sexual deviant? Have you not read the shit I've posted in the Shoutbox? Ten years of trying to establish a reputation down the drain with this thread I guess. — Hanover

Yup, your hetero-normal conventionality has been totally exposed.

Plus if you ride in like the Knight of Wokeness, you'll end up creating a problem that wouldn't have been there if you just stay in your office chair — frank

I don't work in an office and in light of the very nuanced view I gave, your characterization seems a little odd. It should be clear I don't believe in aggressively targeting people who are simply a bit ignorant. But maybe you don't mean me...

that's not transphobia. It's definitely in opposition to certain woke party lines, but it's not transphobia in and of itself. — frank

Recognizing gender identity has nothing to do with the dreaded "wokeness", it's just the ability to understand social reality. Anyhow, we can disagree, but I'm confident the overall trajectory is towards greater understanding and sensitivity to trans people, including recognizing them as women as social science, dictionaries, and the governments of most advanced democracies already do.

Don't try to do social engineering with your political views. That's just going to create tension that makes the topic harder to talk about. — frank

Whereas your accusations of "wokeness", dogmatic assertions, and strange talk of office chairs is designed to reduce tension? Honestly, I'm confident I have reason on my side here and I'll continue to debate the topic the way I have been doing in a nuanced and charitable manner.

However, in a more generalised sense, I do think a blanket denial of trans womanhood that simply designates trans women as men who "like to wear dresses " or change their bodies to look like women is transphobic, though not necessarily ill-intentioned (this seems to be @NOS4A2's stance).

Why is it transphobic?

I don't work in an office and in light of the very nuanced view I gave, your characterization seems a little odd. It should be clear I don't believe in aggressively targeting people who are simply a bit ignorant. But maybe you don't mean me... — Baden

No, I was just saying that aggressive wokeness isn't helpful. I wasn't saying you do that.

Recognizing gender identity has nothing to do with the dreaded "wokeness", it's just the ability to understand social reality. Anyhow, we can disagree, but I'm confident the overall trajectory is towards greater understanding and sensitivity to trans people, including recognizing them as women as social science, dictionaries, and the governments of most advanced democracies already do. — Baden

You're absolutely right. The way this ties back to the OP is this:

there are approaches to the topic that blur the boundary (clearly set out by Judith Butler) between biological identity and gender identity. I'm not saying that you do that, it's just that some people do, and I'm sure you'd agree that it's an untenable position. It just makes no sense.

This has nothing to do with the right of people to transition in terms of gender. It has nothing to do with affording those people the same constitutional rights as everyone else. It just means that we don't have the means to transition people in term of biological identity. We just don't. Lets all just get reasonable and recognize that. Right?

Whereas your accusations of "wokeness", dogmatic assertions, and strange talk of office chairs is designed to reduce tension? Honestly, I'm confident I have reason on my side here and I'll continue to debate the topic the way I have been doing in a nuanced and charitable manner. — Baden

I really didn't mean to be taken that way. It's the opposite of what I meant. I was trying to say that before any of us speak, let's try to have a little respect for one another (until someone clearly shows they don't deserve respect, then open fire.)

Allowing them access to a seperate facility seems fine by me, but I don't think that equates to permitting them into the women's restroom. That is, we can protect their safety without subjecting them onto the unwilling woman population — Hanover

Yes, but there's not always a separate facility and maybe those who are unwilling are so due to misunderstandings concerning safety etc. The women in Thailand don't seem to be bothered and certainly not all women are bothered.

I would assume that if I walked into the women's gym locker and began disrobing, I would face hostility from the women, even those not in fear of assualt, but just pissed off that I invaded their space and exposed myself to them — Hanover

I'm talking primarily about MtF access to bathrooms here. I might move on to locker rooms later but the fact that in the latter case or in a case where a woman walks into a male bathroom, opposite genitalia may be exposed creates an issue of modesty and embarrassment that isn't relevant to just washing your hands next to someone in front of a mirror or having them in the next cubicle.

Ok, thanks for clarifying. :up:

@Frank

(I would also be against aggressively targeting people as transphobic for having traditional views on gender and I agree it is sensible to maintain a distinction between biological sex and gender. But maybe you can point me to a reference for the specific view you're criticizing here. )

Why is it transphobic? — NOS4A2

Because it's a stereotypical and superficial generalization of this group that ignores trans identity and experience. It suggests to me you ought to make some trans friends or read up more on the issue. What would you say for example to the trans student who doesn't eat or drink in school because they are afraid they'll have to go to the bathroom? What is the humane approach to that? Telling them they're really just a man who likes to wear dresses is not it.

I agree it is sensible to maintain a distinction between biological sex and gender. — Baden

That's it! We agree. The rest is gravy.

Oh, cool...

The women in Thailand don't seem to be bothered and certainly not all women are bothered. — Baden

I do think Thai culture is very different in this regard, or at least that's how it's portrayed to me from 1000s of miles away.

I'm talking primarily about MtF access to bathrooms here. I might move on to locker rooms later but the fact that in the latter case or in a case where a woman walks into a male bathroom, opposite genitalia may be exposed creates an issue of modesty and embarrassment that isn't relevant to just washing your hands next to someone in front of a mirror or having them in the next cubicle. — Baden

I had a conversation with a woman at work once regarding the use of urinals by women, and she told me that she would likely back up to the urinal as opposed to straddling it, which is something I never thought of, but maybe that makes more sense. She also asked me if guys pissed in the shower because she thought we were sort of like wild animals. I told her I didn't, but I really didn't know what others did. My guess is that there is a healthy mix of behavior in that regard.

The point here is that this separation of genders into separate facilities has left us ignorant as to what the others are doing. If we do finally shed the remnants of sexual separation, think of all that we'll learn about one another. Based upon many of the five minute documentaries I have seen on this subject, there is a tremendous amount of woman on woman sex in the showers.

But I digress.

But I digress. — Hanover

Don't think for one second your reputation for depravity can be restored that easily.

Don't think for one second your reputation for depravity can be restored that easily. — Srap Tasmaner

Thank you for this. @unenlightened's comments sort of rattled me a bit, having in a single sentence dismantled my life's work.

I then offered an explanation for that, describing how my heterosexuality, for instance, was not a matter of choice, but my decision who to have sex with, if anyone, was a matter of choice. That logic applies to homosexuals as well in terms of who they choose to have sex with and transsexuals in terms of how they wish to present themselves to the general public.

What we each prefer is not a matter of choice. What we each do is a matter of choice. — Hanover

A transgender female will likely dress as a woman because that helps to make the transition psychologically effective for her. Should she 'choose' to dress as a male instead? It seems we're back to the word choice being used here in a slightly shady way.

IMO, the most equitable solution would be to provide three public, multi-occupant, wheelchair-accessible restrooms designated for Men, Women & Unisex. Someone has probably already pointed out that considerations of 'chromosomal biology' or 'gender self-identification' are too reductive for pragmatically providing disambiguated public accomodations. — 180 Proof

Pragmatic - solves the problem - but it's not very philosophical, sociological, or political. I don't think this whole question is about people's comfort and safety, it's about stuffing it down the throats of people who disagree with us.

You haven't demonstrated any danger. I have no evidence to suggest trans women are a "danger" in women's bathrooms. — Baden

It doesn't seem like you understood what I wrote. I don't see any value in trying to explain more clearly. We can leave it at that.

The focus of this debate should be how to protect trans people from discrimination, bigotry, and violence concerning their use of bathrooms and definitely not on falsely stigmatising one of our most vulnerable minority groups as a "danger" or "threat". — Baden

No. The focus of the debate should be on figuring out how to help transgender men and women become valued members of our communities without having to pretend they're something they're not. Sounds like that may already have happened in Thailand. We have to find a way to do it here. I don't think what you suggest will do that.

So sport is a very complex psychology and not something one can just wade into. — Metaphysician Undercover

I think your post is a good summary of the issue. I'm not someone who cares much about sports, but I do care about fairness. From what I've read, biological males who compete as women in mixed martial arts consistently beat the crap out of biological females, sometimes causing serious injury. That's not fair.

What I said is compatible with helping them become valued member of our communities. But what I've been suggesting has been mostly restricted to the bathroom thing so yes that's not enough. I think what happens in Thailand is trans people are accepted and people don't at all seem to have the disgust and fear reaction. However, anecdotally, I feel they tend to get pigeonholed as human novelties and taken less seriously as a result.

A transgender female will likely dress as a woman because that helps to make the transition psychologically effective for them. Should they 'choose' to dress as a male instead? It seems we're back to the word choice being used here in a slightly shady way. — Tom Storm

What I said was:

The correlation between appearance and gender identity is a choice, not a requirement. — Hanover

There's nothing shady at all going on here. A heterosexual will likely choose a member of the opposite sex to have sex with, a dog lover will likely choose a dog over a cat, and a baseball player will likely play baseball than football. By the same token, a MtF will likely choose to present as a woman. If he doesn't, he's still a MtF, just lilke I didn't become straight suddenly when I stole that first kiss.

All I've said is that actions are choices and preferences are not. What you want can't be controlled. What you do can be. If you can't understand that to be an innocuous statement, there's nothing more that I can do.

Somewhere you've read into this that because presenting as a woman is a choice that I think it's subject to moral criticism and that I'm somehow condemning it. My personal view is that I do not think the choice to present one's self as the opposite sex is immoral. I couldn't care any less about that. But, if you're sure I all I say is a ruse and that I really do care what people do with their intimate body parts, then think that and be wrong.

Don't try to do social engineering with your political views. That's just going to create tension that makes the topic harder to talk about. — frank

I think this is the heart of the matter. People don't seem to want to solve the problem, they want to change society. The way to change society is to solve all the problems, one by one, until it doesn't matter anymore.

nuanced and charitable manner. — Baden

I would not characterize you position, as expressed here, as nuanced and charitable. I see it as rigid and uncompromising and I think approaching the problem that way makes things worse.

What I said is compatible with helping them become valued member of our communities. — Baden

I not sure that's true, but even if it is, I don't think your approach will be effective.

"Woman" and "Man" are older than biological classifications. Especially at the chromosomal level. If they are biological then they are a folk-biology which roughly groups together some body functions with gender roles rather than a genetic description.

Further, the unaddressed point is that the policing of gendered spaces is social, and not biological. The biological is what we refer to, the social is what we mean. So, yes, a woman can have XY chromosomes, and a man can have XX chromosomes -- "woman" and "man" having always been gender roles, even if we thought biology had something to do with those roles.

Let's talk about women's bathrooms: — Hanover

Some would view this start of the OP the evidence of all things wrotten in our American(Western) culture. This is what holds interest in a Philosophy Forum in the 21st Century.

Ah, the decandence of our times, this joyful enjoyable decadence. :razz:

What I said was:

The correlation between appearance and gender identity is a choice, not a requirement.
— Hanover — Hanover

Ok. I fail to see how this is a helpful idea. For many transgender people their appear is who they are. It is a requirement. It's almost impossible to go from David to Daphne without changing appearance. I think your line of thinking can lead us to - 'Be who you are, just choose not to appear that way.' Anyway... I'm not accusing you of bigotry. Go well.

"Woman" and "Man" are older than biological classifications. Especially at the chromosomal level. If they are biological then they are a folk-biology which roughly groups together some body functions with gender roles rather than a genetic description. — Moliere

The genetics lines up pretty rigidly with the body functions.

Approaching the problem what way? What is rigid about it? Asking for evidence of a threat? Defining transphobia the way I have? You're putting forward a list of criticisms without specifying what you're talking about or engaging substantively. I am able to defend my position, so if you could please quote where my reasoning is faulty in your view, I'll respond.

For many transgender people their appear is who they are. — Tom Storm

I'd submit that gender dysphoria is exactly the opposite of the way you characterize it here. The person believes their appearance is not who they are and they try to alter their appearance to match their internal view of who they are. They did start being transsexual when they began altering their appearance anymore than did I start being heterosexual when I had my first romantic moment with a person of the opposite sex.

You can be a practicing heterosexual, homosexual, transsexual or not. The act is a manifestation of the internal state. If you want to say the act is the transsexualism, then we can wipe out a good amount of transsexualism with some makeup remover.

At the folk-biological level, yes. At the molecular biological level? No. Not even close. We're all so very different, and don't know enough about our biology to even begin to parse something as complicated as a gender identity or a gender role.

We refer to genetics, to body functions, or even just descriptions of the body.

We don't mean that though. We mean "Woman" and "Man". We're not referencing studies about hormone concentration effects on bone density. To be a man is not to have the right chromosomes. In fact, many people who have the right chromosomes are often denigrated as not being real men. Masculinity refers to the penis, but the performance is in defeating someone else -- or at least trying and accepting the outcome if you lose. Like a man.