Vowels and consonants: Plurals and Names in English, Sanskrit and Basque

javi2541997

I personally believe that the most struggles of a language learner are the correct pronunciation and how to form the regular plural in English. If we ask most people how to form the regular plural in English the answer would probably be, "Add an 's'."

One problem is that this "s" is not always pronounced as an "s." It is in "pot, pots," but not in "dog, dogs."
(Interesting, right?) There, the "s" comes out as a "z," as though the word were "dogz." So how does that work? Well, the "s" is pronounced as a "z" after vowels and after voiced consonsants, which means sounds that are not vowels but where the vocal cords nevertheless vibrate. To understand this topic we have to know why some consonants are voiced and others do not. Something that is only likely to come up in Linguistics, or in languages where the sounds are organized in those terms, like Sanskrit. For example: the letters ṭ, ḍ, ṇ, and ṣ may have underdots. The underdot ṭ, etc., are called "retroflexes," because the tongue curls up towards the roof of the mouth. English words borrowed into Hindi, like "doctor," are thus pronounced with the retroflexes -- ḍocṭor

But there's more. The plural of "church" is not "churchs" but "churches." This "es" is prounounced "ǝz," where the vowel, a "schwa," is "reduced" and indefinite. Why does this happen? A sibilant is an "s," "z," "sh" ("š"), or the sort of "z" in "azure," which in other languages can be written "zh" or "ž." We never see it written that way in English, but it may be in other languages (Czech, for example)

Another interesting example: Spanish name "Xavier." "Xavier" can be pronounced like "Javier" in Spanish, but the "x" in Basque is an "sh" in all its occurrences, as it is in Catalan, Galician, and Portuguese. In English "Xavier" may be pronounced as in French, with a "z" for the "x"

Conclusion after these premises and examples: The people can, and always have, spoken fluent English, and produced correct pluralizations, without knowing any of these things. Then, are these "rules" part of no conscious knowledge?

What do you guys think? Did you ever be aware of these sounds? Link: Why I am a Platonist: Plurals in English

Baden

↪javi2541997

I only learned about this kind of stuff as part of my university education. Most native English speakers wouldn't be aware of these nuances. Anyhow, no explicit knowledge of any language is required for proficient use under conditions of natural exposure from birth. It's know-how not know-that. But if you miss a certain window in childhood, no amount of exposure, even combined with explicit knowledge, can guarantee correct pronunciation, so in that sense, this could be considered a primary problem. However, it depends very much on circumstance. There are too many variables to say definitively what causes learners most problems (what learners? what language? what constitutes a "problem"? etc. )

TheMadMan

As an Albanian we have zero pronunciation problems since how we write a word is 100% the same as you say it.
The question "how do you spell it" doesn't exist.

The people can, and always have, spoken fluent English, and produced correct pluralizations, without knowing any of these things. Then, are these "rules" part of no conscious knowledge? — javi2541997

People who can do that are people who have learned English from exposure mainly instead of rules of grammar.

frank

onclusion after these premises and examples: The people can, and always have, spoken fluent English, and produced correct pluralizations, without knowing any of these things. Then, are these "rules" part of no conscious knowledge? — javi2541997

Some people learn to speak around 10 months old. I think they learn by mimicking sounds and connecting the vocal sequences to emotions (maybe more than analyzing any of it intellectually?)

I think that's why people who don't speak the same language can sort of communicate anyway. The emotional level is still there.

javi2541997

↪Baden

Baden, thank you for your answer. I am aware that you have knowledge of linguistics, so I appreciate your opinion.

I like what you posted: "it is know-how not know-that", and yes, we have to look at each case or student. I don't want to consider the pronunciation as a "problem" but a struggle or even frustration. When I was in high school, I had to read in class paragraphs about different topics in English. I remember that one of those paragraphs started with the following word: "schedule". I didn't even know how to start reading it because the "sche" was not in my consciousness. One of the girls in the class said (that she ended up studying linguists later on) said that I had "phonemic deafness" and that's why it was impossible to me to pronounce "schedule" due to the lack of finding the sound of the consonants in my awareness.

javi2541997

As an Albanian we have zero pronunciation problems since how we write a word is 100% the same as you say it.
The question "how do you spell it" doesn't exist. — TheMadMan

Interesting!

But, do you have any issue or struggle related to grammar or syntax? It seems that spelling is not so important in Albanian, but what about the other uses in your vocabulary?

People who can do that are people who have learned English from exposure mainly instead of rules of grammar. — TheMadMan

Yes, I agree. But, despite they would have skills in detecting vowels and consonants, maybe they would have grammatical mistakes. Here we are to find an equilibrium when we learn a language. Well, it depends in the language too.

javi2541997

↪frank

I agree with you, Frank. Learning from mimicking sounds when we are children is important because it helps us to learn one of the most difficult things: language.

Yet, this advantage can be a struggle too when you are learning another language with different sounds and pronunciations. This is when the difficulty starts. For example: In Spanish we pronounce the double "rr" in perro (dog) using a hard accent in the consonant, like if we say arrrrrrrrrre you ok this morning?
When you are used to specific sounds, it can be a struggle when you switch to another language, but the main paradox of this topic is the fact that we usually learn these "rules" unconsciously!

TheMadMan

But, do you have any issue or struggle related to grammar or syntax? — javi2541997

No Its pretty flexible and simple although it may seem unusual to a foreigner.

It seems that spelling is not so important in Albanian, but what about the other uses in your vocabulary? — javi2541997

What do you mean?

javi2541997

What do you mean? — TheMadMan

I mean: Albanian seems to do not have big issues in phonology because the sounds correspond with the words, vowels and consonants. But, is your language complex in other areas? Like gender endings, conjugation, vocabulary and its syntax, etc... I am Spanish. How difficult would learning Albanian be for me?
To be more specific, as an Albanian, you are used to the sounds of the words of your language since you were a kid. Would it be a struggle for a foreigner who is learning Albanian to replicate these sounds?

TheMadMan

But, is your language complex in other areas? Like gender endings, conjugation, vocabulary and its syntax, etc... I am Spanish. How difficult would learning Albanian be for me? — javi2541997

mmmm... Grammar and conjugation could be challenging since it is complex in an unfamiliar way.
Syntax I think its simpler, vocabulary its a lot of new unfamiliar words.

Would it be a struggle for a foreigner who is learning Albanian to replicate these sounds? — javi2541997

No I think its very easy in general, judging how many italians have learned albanian.
Unusual letters to pronounce might be: C Ç Ë Nj Zh, although it would depend on one's native language.

Im not sure if this is a fact but from our experience, it seems like we can imitate any sound and intonation of other languages with little effort.

For example pronouncing Japanese words its really easy, maybe because they, like us pronounce words in syllables i.e ku-ru-ma, ma-ki-na.
or russian, arabic, latin etc.

Baden

Im not sure if this is a fact but from our experience, it seems like we can imitate any sound and intonation of other languages with little effort. — TheMadMan

It's unfortunately not true. E. g. the Czech Ř is notoriously difficult to pronounce.

Baden

Also, tonal languages can cause problems. E. g. the Thai words for "near" and "far" are both pronounced like "guy" only with a different tone and for an English speaker getting stuff like that right requires a lot of practice.

javi2541997

mmmm... Grammar and conjugation could be challenging since it is complex in an unfamiliar way.
Syntax I think its simpler, vocabulary its a lot of new unfamiliar words. — TheMadMan

I understand. It is challenging because it has both unfamiliar words and grammar.

Unusual letters to pronounce might be: C Ç Ë Nj Zh, although it would depend on one's native language. — TheMadMan

I think rather than one's native language is one's consciousness of those sounds. My guess is that my awareness holds some of the sounds of your example, because I believe that I can replicate some of them:
C: "cé"
Ç: "s" or the similar sound of a S.
Ë: É a vowel with big pronunciation.
Nj: I do not know how to pronounce it, the sound of these consonants are not in my mind when they are together!
Zh: Like "ch"

Im not sure if this is a fact but from our experience, it seems like we can imitate any sound and intonation of other languages with little effort. — TheMadMan

Some consonants that are not a common use in other vocabularies can be complex to pronounce. For example: "Nj" or Polish/Czech words and vocabulary. They are full of consonants and only few vowels. It is interesting because I guess we should to analyse each language and then conclude which one is more complex to replicate.

TheMadMan

It's unfortunately not true. E. g. the Czech Ř is notoriously difficult to pronounce. — Baden

I just listened it on youtube it was fairly easy to mimic. Maybe it would need some practice to use it in words. its was almost like saying rrzh in albanian.

TheMadMan

C: "cé"
Ç: "s" or the similar sound of a S.
Ë: É a vowel with big pronunciation.
Nj: I do not know how to pronounce it, the sound of these consonants are not in my mind when they are together!
Zh: Like "ch" — javi2541997

Not really.
They sound more like:
C: ts
Ç: ch as in cheap
Ë: idk how to explain this, maybe like the E in CERN
Nj: like Ny russian Nyet!
Zh: like the ending of mirage

It is interesting because I guess we should to analyse each language and then conclude which one is more complex to replicate. — javi2541997

Yeah who knows. My guess is some chinese dialect

frank

Yet, this advantage can be a struggle too when you are learning another language with different sounds and pronunciations. This is when the difficulty starts. For example: In Spanish we pronounce the double "rr" in perro (dog) using a hard accent in the consonant, like if we say arrrrrrrrrre you ok this morning?
When you are used to specific sounds, it can be a struggle when you switch to another language, but the main paradox of this topic is the fact that we usually learn these "rules" unconsciously! — javi2541997

When I was studying Spanish, the r's weren't hard for me. I'm a native English speaker, but I have a natural tendency to roll r's. So when I was a child, I had trouble saying words like three the way American speakers do because I rolled the r. People treated it like a speech impediment.

What was challenging for me about Spanish was that when I went to learn it, all the French I ever learned decided to come out in place of Spanish. I didn't even realize I remembered any French, but there it was. :grin:

javi2541997

They sound more like...: — TheMadMan

Thank you for helping me to understand them and how to pronounce it. Another thing that I learned today!

My guess is some chinese dialect — TheMadMan

Yes, I agree. Regarding Chinese dialects we have to add another complex task: the ability for recognizing the ideograms! if I cannot read an ideogram, it would impossible to replicate the sound in mind...

TheMadMan

Thank you for helping me to understand them and how to pronounce it. Another thing that I learned today! — javi2541997

My pleasure, I would ask for you to return the favor but 7 years of watching telenovelas when I was a kid already did that. :lol:

javi2541997

What was challenging for me about Spanish was that when I went to learn it, all the French I ever learned decided to come out in place of Spanish. I didn't even realize I remembered any French, but there it was. :grin: — frank

Did French came out in place of Spanish because of words or sounds? What an interesting thought indeed. As a Spaniard, I consider French a complex and different language from mine. Yet, Portuguese, Italian and even Greek are similar in pronunciation. It is true that Greek vocabulary is very different from Spanish one, but we speak so similar. It is not the same case regarding French: they have a different vocabulary and complex sounds in vowels and accents.

On the other hand, if French comes out while learning Spanish, I recommend you to check Catalan whenever you have free time to do so. Catalan is a mix of both Spanish and French and maybe you could like it.

javi2541997

My pleasure, I would ask for you to return the favor but 7 years of watching telenovelas when I was a kid already did that. — TheMadMan

:rofl: :up:

I can assume that you could understand me if you listen me speaking!

TheMadMan

I can assume that you could understand me if you listen me speaking! — javi2541997

Yeah, I may not know every word but I know what you mean.

javi2541997

↪TheMadMan

Hello again, :smile:
I have read interesting data regarding to our conversation that we had two days ago.

The paper is about a brief review on Greek language, syntax and its evolution. The author says:

...But the presence of the ancient Greek language is not surprising. There were languages in the Balkans of the Illyrian and Thracian groups that would not be attested for centuries, if ever. The modern survivor is Albanian, which does not emerge into history until the end of the Middle Ages (mentioned, 1284; attested, 1464), yet which cannot have been anywhere else all that time, while bearing the influence of surrounding languages on it. As in Anatolia, the speakers of unattested indigenous languages become literate by learning Greek. But the matter is largely speculative.

A good and interesting example regarding to the pronunciation of vowels: The name "Ghicas": (Gjika)

In Albanian it is written as "Gjika", but it is pronounced with just a G because Modern Greek γκ is used to write "g" as a stop. Like omitting the J. So, we have to pronounce it like saying "ghicas"

Is this correct? How much the Greek phonology have influenced in Albanian pronunciation? :smile:

TheMadMan

Is this correct? How much the Greek phonology have influenced in Albanian pronunciation? — javi2541997

Very little. There is higher probability of Greek grammar influence than phonetics.
The only influence Greek phonetics might have had is in southern Albania. The dialect there is very different from the rest, especially north.
As a northerner myself when I listen to Greek it sounds very alien phonetically.

In Albanian it is written as "Gjika", but it is pronounced with just a G because Modern Greek γκ is used to write "g" as a stop. Like omitting the J. So, we have to pronounce it like saying "ghicas" — javi2541997

Gjika is pronounced more like Jika than Gika.
We pronouce G - Gëh as in Game.
And Gj as J in Jacket.

the speakers of unattested indigenous languages become literate by learning Greek. — javi2541997

Again, maybe the south. But I would bet that literacy was more influenced by Latin. Since after 3rd century A.D Albania became very much influenced by the roman Catholicism.

javi2541997

↪TheMadMan

Thank you for your response!

The only influence Greek phonetics might have had is in southern Albania. The dialect there is very different from the rest, especially north. — TheMadMan

I understand. I guess dialects are a curious topic in most countries of the world. We have the same debate in Spain. For example: In cities like Madrid or Valladolid, they tend to speak in a neutral phonetic, but as much as you go further to the south, the accent switches drastically. I do not see it as a problem, but it could be a barrier in communication.

Gjika is pronounced more like Jika than Gika.
We pronouce G - Gëh as in Game.
And Gj as J in Jacket. — TheMadMan

Oh, wow! I was wrong. The G is silent not the J in the word Gjika. I believe that I have the sound in my mind and I can give it a try and pronounce the word!

But I would bet that literacy was more influenced by Latin. Since after 3rd century A.D Albania became very much influenced by the roman Catholicism. — TheMadMan

The Spanish vocabulary too, indeed! We had both Greek and Latin influences in our syntax, lexicon and phonetics. But I guess the latter is the one which has been used the most in the development of our language. Yet, another interesting fact: Spanish uses the letter "Y" from Greek, but Catalan uses "i" from Latin. I think they sound equally but the grammar is obviously different.

TheMadMan

The G is silent not the J in the word Gjika. — javi2541997

From an english POV yes but for us silent letters don't exist, we pronounce everything.
J itself is pronounced as Y in you, without the G it would be pronounced Yika.
Also fyi Gjika is not a word in Albanian.

BC

↪Baden

I read somewhere that children who learn tonal languages are at least somewhat more likely to have perfect pitch. Apparently there is cross over from learning the right (likely pretty subtle) pitch of a given word and learning to identify a given musical pitch.

True? False?

Baden

↪BC

Honestly, I don't know. It does sound very plausible though.

javi2541997

From an english POV yes but for us silent letters don't exist, we pronounce everything. — TheMadMan

So, you pronounce each vowel or consonant in the words, right? The phonology in Albanian seems to be interesting, indeed!

J itself is pronounced as Y in you, without the G it would be pronounced Yika. — TheMadMan

I see. :up:

Also fyi Gjika is not a word in Albanian. — TheMadMan

Exactly. I have read somewhere that Gjika is a name or last name. When I searched Gjika yesterday in Google, it appeared different people from Albania. So, I guess that such a noun is related to persons and not objects.

TheMadMan

So, you pronounce each vowel or consonant in the words, right? — javi2541997

Yes.

Exactly. I have read somewhere that Gjika is a name or last name. When I searched Gjika yesterday in Google, it appeared different people from Albania. So, I guess that such a noun is related to persons and not objects. — javi2541997

Yes it could be a name of last name, probably in Kosovo.

javi2541997

Yes it could be a name of last name, probably in Kosovo — TheMadMan

Interesting!

I think I am saying "interesting" a lot when I interact with you by the way! :lol:

TheMadMan

I think I am saying "interesting" a lot when I interact with you by the wa — javi2541997

Well its good to be interested especially when you discover new territory.

Some days ago I saw Comoros as an option in a list to "chose your country" and I realized how much of the world we don't really know. How many countries, people, languages and traditions we are not even aware that exist.
I thought: There are so many people who were born and died in these unfamiliar cultures that will not be part of history, so many ways of life, and we only focus on the mainstream worldview that is offered to us.
It seems like the Matthew Principle applies almost everywhere.

So yes it is interesting to travel on uncharted waters.

Vowels and consonants: Plurals and Names in English, Sanskrit and Basque

Welcome to The Philosophy Forum!

Categories

More Discussions