No, we're always seeking (and rightly so) to escape anarchy, and never succeeding. — Agustino

We've already succeeded. We succeeded thousands of years ago. We don't live in an anarchy. We have laws and a government. You're talking nonsense.

We've already succeeded. We succeeded thousands of years ago. We don't live in an anarchy. We have laws and a government. — Michael

Yes, and hundreds of times the laws and the government we had disappeared as if it was nothing. The great Roman Empire is no more. Prepare for war, and peace will take care of itself.

Yes, and hundreds of times the laws and the government we had disappeared as if it was nothing. The great Roman Empire is no more. — Agustino

They changed into different laws and governments. And these (big) changes aren't very common.

They changed. And these (big) changes aren't very common. — Michael

Yes after quite a long period of unrest and bloodshed :-} And you know why they collapsed? Partly because they didn't heed the words below:

Prepare for war, and peace will take care of itself. — Agustino

You clearly don't know any history then. — Agustino

Ah, Agustino, always the abuse before getting down to business.

The brutality showcased by the human race far outweighs all our positive achievements. — Agustino

I am ambivalent about humanity's achievements. I don't think that's even the question. I think society should be judged by the quality of the lives of the people living in it. That is what needs to be balanced against suffering, including brutality. What are your thoughts on the quality of human life and how it has changed over the centuries?

Hanover's post suggested that the reason for social inequality was arbitrary, which is wrong. — Agustino

Where did I suggest anything was arbitrary? I don't even follow the use of this term in this context. "Arbitrary" describes the basis of a decision indicating it was without rational basis, just whim or caprice. It isn't like 1000 years ago a committee arbitrarily decided society should be a certain way. Society evolved the way it is, and perhaps for the reason you or Michael suggested. Obviously there's a reason things are as they are. The point is that the cause of the injustice offers no support for the continuation of the injustice.

We could provide a societal evolution theory explaining why certain groups became slaves and other masters, all of which may be correct, but none of which would justify continued subservience by the oppressed group. So sure, women were given the weaker roles because they were weaker, but since most contemporary jobs don't require clubbing tigers, adherence to Neanderthal norms is not only unjust, but it oppresses significant talents and limits potential human development.

For a different perspective on the question, how about a slight twist on the wording of the thread title:
Is everyone generally submissive to the alpha male? In modern civilization, should they be? Is it sometimes in their best interest to be? Is there such thing as an "alpha male" when discussing humans? And is there a corresponding "alpha female", or is there a certain genderless quality to it? Is there a point where even the strong leader overreaches, and the ripe fruit becomes rotten? If humans are arguably territorial to a point, starting with basic "personal space" and expanding from there, at what point do "territorial markings" just make things reek of urine? What to do when bravery degrades to empty bluster, and communication vaporizes into mere hot air?

— Lone Wolf
Apologies if you've already answered this, but how do you define male capability and what makes a guy capable in your eyes?

In my own opinion I think that being honest, loving, not a manipulative, abusive psychopath, etc. refer back to a man's, and woman's, trustworthiness. As in, you trust them to be honest, loving, and so on. I'm just curious, because being, let's say virtuous, sounds like a pretty good prerequisite for a capable — Heister Eggcart

Well, that is going to take awhile to list everything to my personal taste, but you seemed to have summed it up nicely.
To add to that, I think a capable man would be one who treats women respectably, and has proven himself to have integrity in what he has done, does not easily become angry and make irrational decisions, and to generally show good judgement.

. The point is that the cause of the injustice offers no support for the continuation of the injustice. — Hanover

And what makes you think I disagree with you there? Have you read this:

The best we can do is what we're doing now. Use the law to protect women over those things where they can be abused because they are vulnerable - this means protect them against sexual abuse, physical violence, provide equal access to education and learning, provide equal access to political expression and manifestation, etc.. Much like we offer protection to children, who are exposed to a lot of vulnerabilities because of their lack of knowledge, physical size, etc. But there's not much more than that that we can do. There's some bullshit affirmative action, and other leftist ideology going around where, for example, a female professor is hired over a male professor just because she's a female - that's absolutely stupid, and in my view should stop. People should get hired for something based on their competency to do the job, not based on their sex. — Agustino

Seems like I have to cite this over and over again for some of the leftists here. I know you're not one (at least not completely, you certainly also have some leftist views yourself), so it surprises me a little.

What are your thoughts on the quality of human life and how it has changed over the centuries? — T Clark

Physically better, spiritually worse. And we both know that man doesn't live on bread alone.

Physically better, spiritually worse. And we both know that man doesn't live on bread alone. — Agustino

On balance, overall, have things improved or gotten worse? I might think, although I'm not sure, that you would think the loss of spiritual strength is more important than the improvement in physical conditions.

And how does the quality of human life balance with all the brutality and violence? Is life on earth worth the suffering?

On balance, overall, have things improved or gotten worse? — T Clark

Very difficult to say, and it depends what times you're comparing. Say 1950s to today? I don't think we've improved, we've gotten much worse I think. 2000 years ago to today, then yeah, we've probably improved.

I might think, although I'm not sure, that you would think the loss of spiritual strength is more important than the improvement in physical conditions. — T Clark

Physical conditions are important, but without spirituality they're meaningless. Survival is not the goal of life, survival is merely a necessity for being able to achieve that goal. So just improved survival isn't a good in and of itself.

Is life on earth worth the suffering? — T Clark

I wouldn't claim to know the answer to that.

But, by the way Hanover, social injustice does not necessitate that a University chooses professors based on sex, you do realise that right? You do realise that someone shouldn't be chosen as professor even if they're less capable to fulfil the role just because they're female right? That's precisely the definition of sexism in fact, which it seems that a few of you don't know. And this is a problem with the LGBTQ+ minorities as well. Why should a black lesbian female be given priority over a white heterosexual male when applying for the same position? They should be chosen based on their competency, not based on race, gender, or sexual orientation. Women's studies, affirmative action, etc. are a terrible plague, which exacerbate, not diminish, social inequality.

Is everyone generally submissive to the alpha male? — 0 thru 9

The concept of an "alpha male" is part of the problem. What the hell does this concept mean? There is a man who all women should want. Why? So they compete with each other and kill each other?! :s How can a civilised society still use this concept?

Seems like I have to cite this over and over again for some of the leftists here. I know you're not one (at least not completely, you certainly also have some leftist views yourself), — Agustino

All my views are right.

Is life on earth worth the suffering? — T Clark

Fuck no.

Fuck no. — Heister Eggcart

That's a strange position. Can you justify that please? How do you know? How would a mortal human being of limited intelligence, a speck of dust, know whether life is worth the suffering on earth or not?

The Lord Speaks
38 Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:
2 “Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?
8 “Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,
9 when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,
10 when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,
11 when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt’?
12 “Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,
13 that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it?
14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment.
15 The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken.
16 “Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17 Have the gates of death been shown to you?
Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness?
18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this.
19 “What is the way to the abode of light?
And where does darkness reside?
20 Can you take them to their places?
Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
21 Surely you know, for you were already born!
You have lived so many years!
22 “Have you entered the storehouses of the snow
or seen the storehouses of the hail,
23 which I reserve for times of trouble,
for days of war and battle?
24 What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed,
or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?
25 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain,
and a path for the thunderstorm,
26 to water a land where no one lives,
an uninhabited desert,
27 to satisfy a desolate wasteland
and make it sprout with grass?
28 Does the rain have a father?
Who fathers the drops of dew?
29 From whose womb comes the ice?
Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens
30 when the waters become hard as stone,
when the surface of the deep is frozen?
31 “Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades?
Can you loosen Orion’s belt?
32 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons
or lead out the Bear with its cubs?
33 Do you know the laws of the heavens?
Can you set up God’s dominion over the earth?
34 “Can you raise your voice to the clouds
and cover yourself with a flood of water?
35 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way?
Do they report to you, ‘Here we are’?
36 Who gives the ibis wisdom
or gives the rooster understanding?
37 Who has the wisdom to count the clouds?
Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens
38 when the dust becomes hard
and the clods of earth stick together?
39 “Do you hunt the prey for the lioness
and satisfy the hunger of the lions
40 when they crouch in their dens
or lie in wait in a thicket?
41 Who provides food for the raven
when its young cry out to God
and wander about for lack of food?
39 “Do you know when the mountain goats give birth?
Do you watch when the doe bears her fawn?
2 Do you count the months till they bear?
Do you know the time they give birth?
3 They crouch down and bring forth their young;
their labor pains are ended.
4 Their young thrive and grow strong in the wilds;
they leave and do not return.
5 “Who let the wild donkey go free?
Who untied its ropes?
6 I gave it the wasteland as its home,
the salt flats as its habitat.
7 It laughs at the commotion in the town;
it does not hear a driver’s shout.
8 It ranges the hills for its pasture
and searches for any green thing.
9 “Will the wild ox consent to serve you?
Will it stay by your manger at night?
10 Can you hold it to the furrow with a harness?
Will it till the valleys behind you?
11 Will you rely on it for its great strength?
Will you leave your heavy work to it?
12 Can you trust it to haul in your grain
and bring it to your threshing floor?
13 “The wings of the ostrich flap joyfully,
though they cannot compare
with the wings and feathers of the stork.
14 She lays her eggs on the ground
and lets them warm in the sand,
15 unmindful that a foot may crush them,
that some wild animal may trample them.
16 She treats her young harshly, as if they were not hers;
she cares not that her labor was in vain,
17 for God did not endow her with wisdom
or give her a share of good sense.
18 Yet when she spreads her feathers to run,
she laughs at horse and rider.
19 “Do you give the horse its strength
or clothe its neck with a flowing mane?
20 Do you make it leap like a locust,
striking terror with its proud snorting?
21 It paws fiercely, rejoicing in its strength,
and charges into the fray.
22 It laughs at fear, afraid of nothing;
it does not shy away from the sword.
23 The quiver rattles against its side,
along with the flashing spear and lance.
24 In frenzied excitement it eats up the ground;
it cannot stand still when the trumpet sounds.
25 At the blast of the trumpet it snorts, ‘Aha!’
It catches the scent of battle from afar,
the shout of commanders and the battle cry.
26 “Does the hawk take flight by your wisdom
and spread its wings toward the south?
27 Does the eagle soar at your command
and build its nest on high?
28 It dwells on a cliff and stays there at night;
a rocky crag is its stronghold.
29 From there it looks for food;
its eyes detect it from afar.
30 Its young ones feast on blood,
and where the slain are, there it is.”
40 The Lord said to Job:

2 “Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
Let him who accuses God answer him!”
3 Then Job answered the Lord:

4 “I am unworthy—how can I reply to you?
I put my hand over my mouth.
5 I spoke once, but I have no answer—
twice, but I will say no more.”
6 Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm:

7 “Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
8 “Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
9 Do you have an arm like God’s,
and can your voice thunder like his?
10 Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor,
and clothe yourself in honor and majesty.
11 Unleash the fury of your wrath,
look at all who are proud and bring them low,
12 look at all who are proud and humble them,
crush the wicked where they stand.
13 Bury them all in the dust together;
shroud their faces in the grave.
14 Then I myself will admit to you
that your own right hand can save you.
15 “Look at Behemoth,
which I made along with you
and which feeds on grass like an ox.
16 What strength it has in its loins,
what power in the muscles of its belly!
17 Its tail sways like a cedar;
the sinews of its thighs are close-knit.
18 Its bones are tubes of bronze,
its limbs like rods of iron.
19 It ranks first among the works of God,
yet its Maker can approach it with his sword.
20 The hills bring it their produce,
and all the wild animals play nearby.
21 Under the lotus plants it lies,
hidden among the reeds in the marsh.
22 The lotuses conceal it in their shadow;
the poplars by the stream surround it.
23 A raging river does not alarm it;
it is secure, though the Jordan should surge against its mouth.
24 Can anyone capture it by the eyes,
or trap it and pierce its nose?
41 “Can you pull in Leviathan with a fishhook
or tie down its tongue with a rope?
2 Can you put a cord through its nose
or pierce its jaw with a hook?
3 Will it keep begging you for mercy?
Will it speak to you with gentle words?
4 Will it make an agreement with you
for you to take it as your slave for life?
5 Can you make a pet of it like a bird
or put it on a leash for the young women in your house?
6 Will traders barter for it?
Will they divide it up among the merchants?
7 Can you fill its hide with harpoons
or its head with fishing spears?
8 If you lay a hand on it,
you will remember the struggle and never do it again!
9 Any hope of subduing it is false;
the mere sight of it is overpowering.
10 No one is fierce enough to rouse it.
Who then is able to stand against me?
11 Who has a claim against me that I must pay?
Everything under heaven belongs to me.
12 “I will not fail to speak of Leviathan’s limbs,
its strength and its graceful form.
13 Who can strip off its outer coat?
Who can penetrate its double coat of armor?
14 Who dares open the doors of its mouth,
ringed about with fearsome teeth?
15 Its back has rows of shields
tightly sealed together;
16 each is so close to the next
that no air can pass between.
17 They are joined fast to one another;
they cling together and cannot be parted.
18 Its snorting throws out flashes of light;
its eyes are like the rays of dawn.
19 Flames stream from its mouth;
sparks of fire shoot out.
20 Smoke pours from its nostrils
as from a boiling pot over burning reeds.
21 Its breath sets coals ablaze,
and flames dart from its mouth.
22 Strength resides in its neck;
dismay goes before it.
23 The folds of its flesh are tightly joined;
they are firm and immovable.
24 Its chest is hard as rock,
hard as a lower millstone.
25 When it rises up, the mighty are terrified;
they retreat before its thrashing.
26 The sword that reaches it has no effect,
nor does the spear or the dart or the javelin.
27 Iron it treats like straw
and bronze like rotten wood.
28 Arrows do not make it flee;
slingstones are like chaff to it.
29 A club seems to it but a piece of straw;
it laughs at the rattling of the lance.
30 Its undersides are jagged potsherds,
leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge.
31 It makes the depths churn like a boiling caldron
and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment.
32 It leaves a glistening wake behind it;
one would think the deep had white hair.
33 Nothing on earth is its equal—
a creature without fear.
34 It looks down on all that are haughty;
it is king over all that are proud.”

Well, to some extent it is probably hard-wired in humans to be drawn to certain qualities- in food, in clothing, mates, leaders, etc. But I would agree that in our current culture, this can sometimes go overboard. On one hand there seems to be a repressiveness of any quality that we seem to share with animals, leaving us sipping our tea bemoaning the uncivilized. On the other, some seem to revel in hooting and screeching like a band of chimps because it's more real or primal or something. Not to fall prey to a Goldilocks fallacy, and suggest that i have found the perfect balance spot in this matter or anything else. Just playing darts in the dark. I generally think of the ideal hierarchy as an incline. One goes up as one takes on more responsibility or as ability seems to suggest. There is upward and downward flexibility, and downward doesn't necessarily mean "bad", just less responsibility. A total "vertical" type hierarchy just seems too static. Too top-heavy with power, and too bottom heavy with sheer number of "peasants". A totally flat and equal hierarchy placing everyone on the exact same level is also unworkable for very long.

How would a mortal human being of limited intelligence, a speck of dust, know whether life is worth the suffering on earth or not? — Agustino

Because I'm a life suffering on earth.

Because I'm a life suffering on earth. — Heister Eggcart

So how is that sufficient for you to be able to know whether the whole show (not just you) is worth it?

Clark's question is different from, "is life worth living or continuing?".

Clark's question is different from, "is life worth living or continuing?". — Heister Eggcart

Realllllly?

Is life on earth worth the suffering? — T Clark

It seems to me he's asking about life on earth as a whole.

I would include all life, but I think he's specifically referring to human life, seeing as this discussion is between humans and not hippos, and we're talking about human females and not zebra females.

Yes, I'm talking about all human life too. How do you know that all human life isn't worth the suffering on Earth? How can you possibly know that? Being just one among many billions of lives on Earth certainly gives you no grand insight about the purpose of the whole thing. Do you think you are in the position of judging all of human life, and determining that it's not worth the suffering?

Because I'm a life suffering on earth. — Heister Eggcart

For what it's worth, I was talking about humanity in sum, not just one individual. Here's the quote that got us started:

The brutality showcased by the human race far outweighs all our positive achievements. — Agustino

Agustino and I went on to discuss the balance between brutality and achievement; suffering and quality of life. For the human race as a whole. Not you, me, or some woman in Moline.

Thanks for having "my back." I don't see how that's creepy.

Thanks for having "my back." I don't see how that's creepy. — River

Here is River's original quote:

I too am a theist. You think I'd give it away for free? Marriage is a wonderful institution. — River

Did I misunderstand? If I did I apologize. I thought you were referring to selling physical and emotional intimacy rather than giving it away for free. Marriage as an economic transaction. Commitment for sex. If that's what you meant, I stand by creepy. If not, I retract the post.

And so now a diversion into the wisdom of affirmative action? Nothing I've said hinted at whether affirmative action programs were morally, Constitutionally, or pragmatically sound. What I pointed to was the injustice of discrimination, not to whether our legislatures have properly addressed the evil.

Regardless, it is likely we share the same conclusions on this subject, but I'd suspect for differing reasons because I tend to look at law very pragmatically, and I see such programs as offering little good and usually to those least needy, but all of this is a major degression and topic shift.

I think what you say here is pretty weak. What River said is not "creepy" at all, just the (apparently) honest statement of someone who doesn't want to offer sex to another in any context where there is no emotional commitment. I'd say that's healthy rather than creepy. It's more creepy to treat others' bodies as potential "amusement parks".

Not you, me, or some woman in Moline. — T Clark

If you don't care for one actual wretched woman in Moline, how can you care about the abstraction of "the human race as a whole"?

How do you know that all human life isn't worth the suffering on Earth? How can you possibly know that? Being just one among many billions of lives on Earth certainly gives you no grand insight about the purpose of the whole thing. Do you think you are in the position of judging all of human life, and determining that it's not worth the suffering? — Agustino

If Herr Heister Eggcart can't know that all human life isn't worth the suffering, then by extension I would assume that Monsieur Agustino can't know that human life IS worth the suffering.