The point of course is to shed metaphysical baggage and isolate and purify and zero in on The Cause. — Agent Smith

Why worry about THE unseen ultimate metaphysical Cause? Why not just accept what we know about obvious median physical causes? In his non-science writing, Isaac Newton freely admitted his belief in "God" as the ultimate "Why"*1. But, regarding the mysterious force of Gravity, he avoided the ancient-but-un-scientific metaphysical dodge of "god did it", which doesn't explain how that spooky-action-at-a-distance happens*2. For the same reason, claiming that "Chance is The Cause", is un-scientific, because it doesn't explain how Randomness can result in rationally knowable Patterns of Organization. In human experience, order arises from Intention, not accident*3. Science is intended to Specify Proximate causation, but Philosophy attempts to Generalize about Ultimate causation*4. :smile:


*1. What is Newton's vision of God? :
The God that Newton believed in was a God that not only created the world, but remained in dominion over the world, and had a ``propensity to action'' within the world. Newton's scientific writings, as well as his theological writings, reflected these beliefs.
https://web.media.mit.edu/~picard/personal/Newton.php

*2. Newton's own motto, "hypotheses non fingo" was, in a sense, disregarded by Newton himself: he rejected hypotheses only where they violated his own "regula philosophandi", that is to say, his principle of their strict parsimony. In terms of present-day methodology, we reject hypotheses as scientifically meaningless if they are incapable even of indirect test; and we reject them as superfluous or as implausible if they are too complex and artificial to conform with well established canons of inductive probability. But freedom of scientific theorizing must be preserved wherever the conditions of meaningfulness and of economy appear to be satisfied. ___Arthur Beer (ed.), Vistas in Astronomy https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Arthur_Beer

*3. In Architecture School we were once assigned a project called "Design by Accident". The point was to illustrate the difference between Design by Intention, and the noisy patterns of Accidental Coincidence (TV screen). The human mind can interpret noise as signal, by imputing new information (added outlines). And some abstract art depends on the human talent for "reading into" randomness, instead of "reading out" of intention.

*4. What it takes to be ultimate is to be the most fundamentally real, valuable or fulfilling among all that there is or could be.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/god-ultimates/


RANDOM PATTERNS WITH IMPUTED MEANING

RANDOM PATTERN WITH IMPUTED OUTLINES

CAN YOU SEE THE IMAGE WITHIN THE NOISE?

So, in a sense, this Enformy (order) is a "pattern" in Entropy (chaos). @180 Proof would agree, I recall him saying something to the effect that order is (merely) a phase in chaos.

I performed this little experiment with an online random (chaos) number generator. The first few tries yielded no patterns, but on the third attempt this: 9, 5, 1, 2, 3, 7, 9. A pattern/order (1, 2, 3) emerges in the patternless/chaos.

Well, that was the only pattern which you recognized ... order in disorder, signal in noise ...

... matter of fact, it's all dark.

:smirk:

So, in a sense, this Enformy (order) is a "pattern" in Entropy (chaos). 180 Proof would agree, I recall him saying something to the effect that order is (merely) a phase in chaos. — Agent Smith

Yes. Enformy is an anomaly*1, in a process characterized mostly by Entropy. Yet, you could say that it's "the exception that proves the rule". The 'rule' being emergence of organization despite the obstacle of Entropy. Also, the progressive pattern of Enformy has been consistent in our own backyard for billions of years. And exponentially progressive human Culture is an anomaly within gradually evolving Nature.

With those anti-entropy developments in mind, I would rephrase 180's pessi-missal (pessimistic dismissal) of Order as merely a meaningless gap in Disorder : "Life is merely a phase in death". If that was true, what is the significance of your own Life? A rule of thumb for both scientists and philosophers is "when you discover an anomaly, look for the cause". Creative Progress proceeds from anomaly to anomaly. And you can quote Kuhn on that.

For me, the "true state of the universe" is the state of progression from nada (scratch) to those who scratch their heads at anomalies*3. :smile:


*1. Law-like Anomalies :
Scientific development depends in part on a process of non-incremental or revolutionary change. Some revolutions are large, like those associated with the names of Copernicus, Newton, or Darwin, but most are much smaller, like the discovery of oxygen or the planet Uranus. The usual prelude to changes of this sort is, I believed, the awareness of anomaly, of an occurrence or set of occurrences that does not fit existing ways of ordering phenomena. The changes that result therefore require 'putting on a different kind of thinking-cap', one that renders the anomalous lawlike but that, in the process, also transforms the order exhibited by some other phenomena, previously unproblematic.
— Thomas S. Kuhn, The Essential Tension

*2. Is the true state of the Universe order or chaos? :
What is orderly are the physical laws, that seem to be the same everywhere we look: the electron always has the same mass and so forth.
What is chaotic arises from the laws of thermodynamics. Entropy always increases in systems, and entropy measures disorder.
Pockets of order get created − stars and solar systems for example. Gravity is a big help in doing that, along with radiation to take heat out of systems.
But overall the universe is heading toward apparent eternal expansion and cooling off −
heat death. __Stephen Perrenod
Note -- The "true state" depends on where you look, and on what you mean by "true". On our local exceptional "pocket of order" (Earth), Enformy has scored a big lead, against the predicted odds of Entropy winning the long game. As for the rest of the universe, several scientists have enough faith in Natural Laws to bet on Enformy's creative power to produce, not just Life, but intelligent Minds. For my own personal purposes, I'm only betting on the home team : Earth. Even so, what has a beginning, can be expected to come to an end. Some call that far-off finale, "Heat Death", others "Omega Point" (a new beginning).

*3. "The true state of universe is non-dual - its neither the state of “order” nor the state of “chaos” - it is state that is to be called “forward motion of time”. Here is some brief explanation…" __Arun Jagatheesan
Note -- Another word for "Forward motion" is "Progress". Another term for "Duality" is BothAnd Unity.

180'S VIEW OF ENTROPY

GNOMON'S VIEW OF ENFORMY

COSMIC EVOLUTION from scratch to head-scratchers to the ultimate anomaly???

... emergence of organization despite the obstacle of Entropy.

With those anti-entropy developments in mind ... — Gnomon

:lol: If you get the physics so wrong, G-mon, then your "Meta-physics" is bound to be ... not even wrong.

fyi: Order (i.e. dissipative structures / processes) emerges because of – as it net increases – the asymmetric gradient of entropy.

"when you discover an anomaly, look for the cause". — Gnomon

:up:

What is an anomaly? Why does it beg/demand for an explanation?

You need to watch this video $\downarrow$. Sean Carroll shares his views on entropy and complexity.



Please brush up on your math - the graphs are identical, but I know what you wished to convey and perhaps you thought your audience would be smart enough to do the math themselves. Yours and @180 Proof's (if your assessment is correct) views are indeed opposites of each other - they're, mathematically, reflections of each other and this, to my reckoning, is yin-yang at play (re BothAnd).

fyi: Order (i.e. dissipative structures / processes) emerges because of – as it increases – the asymmetric gradient of entropy. — 180 Proof

:up: Are you referring to net entropy?

Starting entropy (say) = 10

Local entropy falls (life's order) = - 2, but at a cost of +3 entropy to the environment

Ending entropy = 10 -2 + 3 = 11

Ending entropy of the system (11) > Starting entropy of the system (10)

Are you referring to net entropy? — Agent Smith

Yes.

Yes. — 180 Proof

It's like room cleaning. You cleaning your room = You moving your garbage elsewhere. Your room is clean, but the environment is dirty and the net dirtiness of the system (your room + the environment) goes up!

:100:

"when you discover an anomaly, look for the cause". — Gnomon
What is an anomaly? Why does it beg/demand for an explanation? — Agent Smith

In science, an Anomaly is a "glitch" : data that contradicts the norm. Literally, the word means "irregular" ; metaphorically it means : "does not fit the expected pattern". The link below indicates that new paradigms ("new physics") in science typically emerge from discovery of anomaly. So, what I'm saying here is that Enformy is not what you would expect from the typical definition of Thermodynamics. If Entropy was so all-powerful, the Big Bang would have snuffed-out in a few light-seconds -- like New Year's fireworks. But contrary to expectations, after billions of solar years, it continues to expand, and to self-organize, and to produce living globs of thinking matter, that ask "why" questions. Don't you think that anomaly demands an explanation? :smile:

The Power of Anomalies :
Progress in science is sometimes triggered by surprises. Data collection resembles gathering of new pieces in a jigsaw puzzle and placing them together. Sometimes one of the pieces does not quite fit. It is natural for scientists to instinctively argue that such a piece does not belong; perhaps it is an artifact driven by uncertainties in the data or a misinterpretation of the experiment. This might indeed be the case in most instances. But every now and then, an anomaly of this type signals a real discrepancy from expectations, either a violation of a highly respected but incomplete law of nature—namely an exception to the rule, or an unexpected surprise—signaling the possibility of “new physics.”
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-power-of-anomalies/

Glitch : a small problem or fault that prevents something from being successful or working as well as it should
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/glitch

Please brush up on your math - the graphs are identical, but I know what you wished to convey and perhaps you thought your audience would be smart enough to do the math themselves. — Agent Smith

The contrasting graphs are illustrations -- no math required to see the implication. Obviously, I just turned the original graph up-side-down, to figuratively demonstrate the difference between 180's worldview and my own. In terms of meaning though, the graphs are not identical. One shows Entropy completely dissipating Energy from an initial state of order to a state of utter disorder. The other portrays Neg-entropy (Enformy) organizing raw Energy (potential) into the elaborate structures that we see all around us. The up-side-down graph is what you would get if you place a minus sign in front of the Entropy equation to represent Neg-entropy (Enformy).

The third graph shows what happens to a universe when "the math" allows self-organizing systems to emerge, against the general rules of thermodynamics. That's why there are exceptions to the first & second laws, to make allowance for Open Systems. The linked article by The Information Philosopher provides a plethora of information on the topics of Self-Organization, Complexity, and Enformy (negentropy). On his website, he even gets into the "Math" that I tend to skip-over, because I am neither a scientist nor a mathematician. :nerd:

Entropy :
A quality of the universe modeled as a thermodynamic system. Energy always flows from Hot (high energy density) to Cold (low density) -- except when it doesn't. On rare occasions, energy lingers in a moderate state that we know as Matter, and sometimes even reveals new qualities and states of material stuff .
   The Second Law of Thermo-dynamics states that, in a closed system, Entropy always increases until it reaches equilibrium at a temperature of absolute zero. But some glitch in that system allows stable forms to emerge that can recycle energy in the form of qualities we call Life & Mind. That glitch is what I call Enformy.
http://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page8.html
Note -- 180's notion of Entropy envisions a closed system. But Gnomon's Enformy is based on an open system (e.g. Earth) which is able to borrow energy from outside its own sub-system.

Negative Entropy :
Entropy is the amount of disorder or randomness within a system. As the disorder of a system increases, so does entropy. The universe naturally moves to a state of increased disorder or randomness, which means the universe naturally moves to a state of increased entropy.
What is the opposite of entropy? Negative entropy refers to a system becoming less disordered or more ordered. Negative entropy is also known as negentropy.
https://study.com/academy/lesson/negative-entropy-definition-lesson.html
Note -- the effect of Negative Entropy (Energy ; Enformy) is to produce positive Work instead of just Waste.

Dissipative Structures :
In his 1945 essay What is Life?, Schrödinger would say that "life feeds on negative entropy." Schrödinger described this as "order out of order" that distinguishes life from the "order out of chaos" exhibited by many complex physical systems studied today.
Ilya Prigogine and his collaborator Isabel Stengers titled their 1984 book Order Out Of Chaos. In it, they focused on physical systems far from equilibrium which exhibit the flow of matter and energy from the environment through an open system. Prigogine called them "dissipative structures" and developed the non-linear thermodynamics needed to describe them mathematically.
Prigogine thought these dissipative systems showed "self-organizing" characteristics similar to those of biological systems.
https://www.informationphilosopher.com/freedom/complexity.2.en.html

There's this riddle if youtube videos are to be believed that scientists haven't yet solved: why was the early universe in a low entropy state? Must be the Enformer. :smile:

[The entropy is always increasing, right? So the entropy must've been lower in the past than at present. So the argument proceeds ... The Big Bang was a very low entropy state then.]

Plus the 2^nd law of thermodynamics (entropy always increases) isn't actually a law like the law of gravity is. The 2^nd law simply states that since there are more ways to be disordered than there are ways to be ordered, entropy (disorder) goes up, BUT ... there's a small, infinitesimally small (non-zero) chance that entropy decreases.

Allow me to explain:

A box, some gas particles in one corner; the gas particles move randomly (entropy increases) and the gas particles attain peak entropy when they're uniformly distributed throughout the box. That's that!

Now the interesting bit - it's entirely possible though extremely improbable that all the gas particles, by fluke and fluke alone, find themselves back in the corner where they began their last journey (entropy decreases).

Have you heard of Boltzmann brains? Read, quite interesting and might help buttress your argument for Enformy.

There's this riddle if youtube videos are to be believed that scientists haven't yet solved: why was the early universe in a low entropy state? Must be the Enformer. — Agent Smith

Yes. According to my non-scientific thesis, the Origin of our universe (closed system), which began with all the energy it would ever have*1, implies energy & regulatory input from outside the system. But other theories assume the eternal existence of Energy & Laws (Potential + Logos), from which our little 'verse obtained its head start. One version of that notion is the Multiverse Theory, asserting that Ultimate Reality has been recycling its energy & laws forever. Unfortunately, that is not an empirically testable theory, hence Philosophy instead of Science. Another hypothesis is Cosmic Inflation*2, which assumes that Space & Time have existed forever, along with the potential energy presumed to be inherent in Empty Space. Yet, again there is no way to confirm that speculation.

The physical & philosophical problem with all of those physical pre-BigBang theories is that they contradict the so-called Laws of Thermodynamics. In order to recycle, a roller-coaster multi-universe would have to pull itself up by the bootstraps in order to get back to the low Entropy/high Enformy starting point. That's why the Enformationism thesis proposes a Meta-Physical (mental ; information) First Cause (creator of Space & Time, Energy & Matter) to explain -- logically, not physically -- how our local 'verse could begin at the top of the Energy/Entropy hill*3. :smile:


*1. Universe began at top of roller coaster hill :
The Universe Began In A State Of Extraordinarily Low Entropy
Based on an elaboration of a 2004 proposal by Sean Carroll and Jennifer Chen, there is a possibility of a new solution to the age-old problem of the arrow of time. This work, by Sean Carroll, Chien-Yao Tseng, and me, is still in the realm of speculation, and has not yet been vetted by the scientific community. . . . The most attractive feature is that there is no longer a need to introduce any assumptions that violate the time symmetry of the known laws of physics.
https://www.edge.org/response-detail/25538

HOW DID THE PRIMORDIAL UNIVERSE GET TO THE TOP OF THE ENERGY CURVE ?


*2. Cosmic Inflation, instantaneous exponential expansion, assumes super-natural (extra-natural) forces that don't exist in the Nature that Physics observes. Hence, it's equivalent to magical creation from super-nature into nature, as in Genesis : creatio ex nihilo, or creatio ex materia. To produce something new from something absent, or from pre-existing (pre-nature) material. That kind of theory only makes sense to those who hold a prejudice against philosophical Metaphysics : Metaphysics is the branch of philosophy that examines the fundamental nature of reality, including the relationship between mind and matter, between substance and attribute, and between potentiality and actuality.

*3. Why we’ll never see back to the beginning of the Universe :
the hot Big Bang has since been shown to be preceded by the inflationary Universe, . . .
Of all the questions humanity has ever pondered, perhaps the most profound is, “Where did all of this come from?” . . . any information about the beginning of the Universe is no longer contained within our observable cosmos.
https://bigthink.com/starts-with-a-bang/never-see-beginning-universe/
Note -- The Inflationary thesis leaves us in suspense, with a "hidden" creator, just like all other First Cause theories. If the Cause is design-by-accident, no revelation would be expected. But if the Prime Cause was intentional, some identifying information might be found within the creation itself. That is the premise of Enformationism. But you won't see such embedded revelation unless you are looking for it.

Have you heard of Boltzmann brains? Read, quite interesting and might help buttress your argument for Enformy. — Agent Smith

The Boltzmann brain thought experiment suggests that it might be more likely for a single brain to spontaneously form in a void (complete with a memory of having existed in our universe) rather than for the entire universe to come about in the manner cosmologists think it actually did. Physicists use the Boltzmann brain thought experiment as a reductio ad absurdum argument for evaluating competing scientific theories.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boltzmann_brain
I get enough of 180's accusations of "absurdity", without providing him with more ammunition to ridicule the notion of "spontaneous" generation of brains/minds. My thesis proposes the long & winding road of natural Evolution, from spontaneous (?) Big Bang to computing brains with reflective minds. :joke:

... to figuratively demonstrate the difference between 180's worldview and my own. — Gnomon

:sweat:

What is an anomaly? — Agent Smith

I'm no Kantian but an "anonaly" revealed by our model represents a limit or an inconsistency of our model rather than an "anomaly in itself" (whatever that means).

Why does it beg/demand for an explanation?

It only "demands" that we update our model.

... why was the early universe in a low entropy state? — Agent Smith

Same reason, I guess, you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs ... and ... (N+1) system-states > (1) system-state in a non/linear dynamic system. :fire:

It's been speculated that "the Big Bang" is a white hole at the other side of a black hole and there is a dumbell-like symmetry between our matter universe and an antimatter universe so that the "low entropy" of our beginning is canceled-out, or balanced by, the "high entropy of the end of that anti-universe (i.e. the twist, so to speak, in a Möbius Loop-like torus that alternates – occillates back and forth – between entropy minimums and maximums) such that "the low entropy of our early universe" – it's asymmetry – is only apparent.

NB: IIRC, I got this from a Sean Carroll article / youtube ... which I only grasp a little better than Roger Penrose's 'conformal cyclic universe' conjecture. (At least none of that "enformy" woo woo's needed.) :smirk:

There's a lot yet to explain in cosmology/cosmogony/astronomy. Did you read 180 Proof's reply to me? There are some mathematical models which purport to account for the low entropy state of the universe - our universe is a white hole who's low entropy state is offset and exceeded by the high entropy state of a black hole "at the opposite end". That would mean your Enformy is actually entropy (of the black hole paired with our universe).

There's a lot yet to explain in cosmology/cosmogony/astronomy. Did you read 180 Proof's reply to me? There are some mathematical models which purport to account for the low entropy state of the universe - our universe is a white hole who's low entropy state is offset and exceeded by the high entropy state of a black hole "at the opposite end". That would mean your Enformy is actually entropy (of the black hole paired with our universe). — Agent Smith

180disproof :joke: likes to throw-out abstruse stuff that he knows you & I are not familiar with. And I suspect -- brilliant as he is -- 180poo doesn't understand those esoteric math & physics conjectures himself. As usual, this ploy misses the point of my personal philosophical thesis. Which does not "purport" to be a scientific explanation of anything.

My coinage of Enformy, which he labels as "woo woo", is simply a combination of Energy (cause) & Form (orderly pattern). And its philosophical meaning is simply Regulated Causation, as opposed to Random Disorder or Destruction. The "woo" arises when I infer that the "Natural Laws" that regulate evolution, are Intentional Organization instead of Accidental Design (oxymoron). The undeniable logical & predictable arrangement (order) of our world is what scientists depend on to construct their hypotheses & models. And it's the exact opposite of what you would expect (anomaly) from an Entropy dominated process : an actual "white hole" instead of a hypothetical reverse black hole.

I'm not a mathematician or cosmologist, so I can't comment on the "mathematical models" that "purport" to explain the low-entropy-high-order beginning of the universe*1. As an amateur philosopher, what matters to me is the simple observed fact that our Cosmos began with all the energy & laws necessary to construct the world we now enjoy after billions of solar years of en-formation & con-struction. 2500 years ago, Plato postulated that our orderly Cosmos (regulated by natural laws) emerged from a pre-existing Chaos (infinite Potential). But even that "deterministic" Chaos was not dominated by Entropy, because it turned-out to be creative instead of destructive*2.

Don't be misled by his White Hole or White Rabbit distraction. On this forum, what "matters" is not Physics (ideas about matter), but Metaphysics (ideas about ideas). :smile:

*1. What Was The Entropy Of The Universe At The Big Bang? :
The second law of thermodynamics is one of those puzzling laws of nature that simply emerges from the fundamental rules. It says that entropy, a measure of disorder in the Universe, must always increase in any closed system. But how is it possible that our Universe today, which looks to be organized and ordered with solar systems, galaxies and intricate cosmic structure, is somehow in a higher-entropy state than right after the Big Bang? . . . .So why was the early Universe so low-entropy? Because it didn't have any black holes. ___Physicist Ethan Siegel
Note -- The absence or presence of black holes does not explain the "why" of the low entropy origin. It merely distracts your attention from the philosophical enigma.

*2. On the Origin of the Universe: Chaos or Cosmos? :
I would like to consider the Universe according to the standard Big Bang model, including various quantum models of its origin. In addition, using the theory of nonlinear dynamics, deterministic chaos, fractals, and multifractals I have proposed a new hypothesis, Macek (The Origin of the World: Cosmos or Chaos? Cardinal Stefan Wyszyński University (UKSW) Scientific Editions, 2020). Namely, I have argued that a simple but possibly nonlinear law is important for the creation of the Cosmos at the extremely small Planck scale at which space and time originated. It is shown that by looking for order and harmony in the complex real world these modern studies give new insight into the most important philosophical issues beyond classical ontological principles, e.g., by providing a deeper understanding of the age-old philosophical dilemma (Leibniz, 1714): why does something exist instead of nothing? We also argue that this exciting question is a philosophical basis of matters that influence the meaning of human life in the vast Universe.
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-96964-6_21
Note -- That hypothetical "non-linear law" sounds similar to what I call "Enformy".

*3. White Hole : a hypothetical celestial object that expands outward from a space-time singularity and emits energy, in the manner of a time-reversed black hole.
Note -- Doesn't that sound like our expanding, energy recycling, universe?
A white hole is a bizarre cosmic object which is intensely bright, and from which matter gushes rather than disappears.
Note -- Now who's making sh*t up??? Ask 180 if anyone has ever detected a hypothetical White Hole. If he can't document its existence, you can accuse him of promulgating "woo woo". :joke:


PS__Many of 180's counterarguments to Enformy are based on an erroneous premise : that I am making factual statements about physics, instead of personal opinions about metaphysics. For example, I didn't make-up the idea that the universe began in a low entropy state of raw energy & natural laws. It was scientists, whose job it is to determine such things, who offered their professional opinions about that oddity. Yet, some of them, faced with an anomaly, also asked the philosophical question "why?" (for what purpose).

Some of them also proposed physical "how" answers, such as imaginary White Holes. But, 180 thinks my imaginary metaphysical answer to a philosophical question is inadmissible as evidence. Ironically, scientists had already found a similar counter-entropy force in physics, that they labeled "negentropy". I merely gave that concept an information-centric label. 180 doesn't argue with the logic of my inferences from inter-related facts, but attacks Gnomon's credentials as a scientist.

The Remarkable Emptiness of Existence :
Note -- Contrary to expectations, even the vacuum of space, lacking actual stuff, was found to contain lots of potential energy. Is that physics or metaphysics? From my personal information-based perspective, that's what I call EnFormAction : the Cosmic power to enform, to create matter & mind from Potential Energy. Isn't Nature spooky? Woo-woo!
https://nautil.us/the-remarkable-emptiness-of-existence-256323/

All he's got is his usual appeal to incredulity in the form of "my personal philosophical thesis". Critical, informed, engagement is not forthcoming because, as @Gnomon's vacuously rococo posts expose, there is no there there.