But it is. You are choosing to do something rather than nothing, which are based on reasons or biases.

You are choosing to do something rather than nothing, — Harry Hindu

First, I wouldn't say that anyone is choosing to do something rather than nothing unless they're specifically have that idea in mind.

Then how do you learn anything, MU? What is it that makes you learn to do things and not others? — Harry Hindu

The act of thinking is how I learn things.

All of your actions have consequences. Isn't the consequences, the end result of your action, and how that matches your present goal, what you are choosing? If not, then what do you hope to accomplish when you make a decision? — Harry Hindu

There is something missing in your logical process Harry. You seem to think that consequences magical cause people to make the decisions which they do. But that's not the case, it's the act of thinking which produces the decisions, not the consequences of prior actions. That this is true is very obvious from observing people with mental illness, or who have different types of mental deficiencies. Clearly, it is the thinking which causes the decision, not actual consequences of past actions, nor possible consequences of future actions.

There's no point in your attempting to now shift the topic of the argument. It has been what you have said that has failed to be relevant. You initially responded to my contention that determinism understood the way I have been outlining is incompatible with a notion of moral responsibility that is robust enough to rationally justify emotions and attitudes of praise and blame. Moral freedom understood in that context is necessarily outside the causal order, and is utterly incompatible with determinism.

And you need to read more closely; I have never said that I am arguing for this as being my position. I am just trying to make clear to you why the logic of freedom and determinism (taken in their strong senses, as I have outlined them) make them incompatible positions.Taken in their weak senses both freedom and determinism are incoherent and fail to constitute what they purport to constitute anyway; they are capitulations. This is all merely a matter of logic, not of ontology, as you mistakenly think.

Uh... I have no idea what point you are trying to make here. I asked some simple questions in my last post in an effort to understand your position, or argument, or whatever point that you were trying to make. When you answer those questions we can continue our discussion.

First, I wouldn't say that anyone is choosing to do something rather than nothing unless they're specifically have that idea in mind. — Terrapin Station

Ridiculous. If you make decisions to do anything, one of the options available in making that decision, is to do nothing. Sometimes you end up doing nothing if you take to long to make a decision. Doing nothing also has it's consequences.

Then how do you learn anything, MU? What is it that makes you learn to do things and not others? — Harry Hindu

The act of thinking is how I learn things. — Metaphysician Undercover

That wasn't the question, MU. Try again.

All of your actions have consequences. Isn't the consequences, the end result of your action, and how that matches your present goal, what you are choosing? If not, then what do you hope to accomplish when you make a decision? — Harry Hindu

There is something missing in your logical process Harry. You seem to think that consequences magical cause people to make the decisions which they do. But that's not the case, it's the act of thinking which produces the decisions, not the consequences of prior actions. That this is true is very obvious from observing people with mental illness, or who have different types of mental deficiencies. Clearly, it is the thinking which causes the decision, not actual consequences of past actions, nor possible consequences of future actions. — Metaphysician Undercover

Yes, thinking about the consequences, or the outcome, of your actions tends to have an effect on the kind of decision you make. In order to think, you have to be thinking about something, MU. Your obtuseness is getting old, MU.

Ridiculous. If you make decisions to do anything, one of the options available in making that decision, is to do nothing. Sometimes you end up doing nothing if you take to long to make a decision. Doing nothing also has it's consequences. — Harry Hindu

In my view it's ridiculous to say that decisions involve options that you didn't have in mind.

Possibilities can involve options that you didn't have in mind, but decisions do not.

When there comes a point where you have two or more options in which you don't have any reason to choose one or the other, but you want to do one of them as opposes to doing nothing. Doing nothing is an option that comes to mind in this particular situation.

Again, I'd agree that if you explicitly think something like "I can do this or do nothing" then you'd make that decision (well, as long as you do make a decision and don't forget about it or whatever). But I wouldn't agree that that's part of a "background" of a decision where you don't explicitly think that.

It is also quite possible that your biases do come to play when making a decision. You have subconscious desires that come into play when making decisions. Try objectively observing your own decision-making process as you are making a decision like this and try to get at the real reason why you make a particular choice that initially seems like you don't have a reason to choose one or the other. Is it the first thing that pops into your head once you decide to make a decision?

There seems to be a point in time where you are aware of your options, then a point where you are aware that these options have nothing that stands out for you to choose one over the other. Then, at some point, you must make a decision to make a decision, no?

Now that I think about it, it seems that in these particular instances where we are faced with options that don't stand out from one or the other, other options come to mind, or else we'd be stuck in indecision. When faced with the options of two albums to listen to when neither one stands out as the one to choose, eventually there comes a point where other options come to mind, like choosing a third album, or doing something else entirely (which could be nothing). It seems natural that other options come to mind in a instance of indecision, or at least the mind tries its best to find a reason to choose one or the other.

You have subconscious desires that come into play when making decisions. — Harry Hindu

I don't buy the notion of subconscious mental content. So I don't buy that subconscious mental content could be a factor in making a decision.

That wasn't the question, MU. Try again. — Harry Hindu

The question was "How do you learn anything, MU?". The answer was "The act of thinking is how I learn things". Where's the problem?

Yes, thinking about the consequences, or the outcome, of your actions tends to have an effect on the kind of decision you make. In order to think, you have to be thinking about something, MU. Your obtuseness is getting old, MU. — Harry Hindu

Sure, I'm thinking about things when I think. But all these thoughts, and things which I am thinking, are inside my mind, and just part of my act of thinking. Why would you think that something outside my mind, such as "consequences", has any causal power over my act of thinking? That makes no sense to me, because only thoughts enter into my act of thinking. So thoughts about consequences may enter into my act of thinking, as part of the act of thinking, but the consequences themselves don't enter into the act of thinking and therefore do not have any causal power within the act of thinking.

I'm not going to bother answering irrelevant questions based on misunderstanding. When you learn to read carefully we might be able to begin a discussion.

So would you also say that computers don't make decisions? What is a decision?

That wasn't the question, MU. Try again. — Harry Hindu

The question was "How do you learn anything, MU?". The answer was "The act of thinking is how I learn things". Where's the problem? — Metaphysician Undercover

For one, try answering that question that followed right after that one.

What is it that makes you learn to do things and not others? — Harry Hindu

Second, thinking and learning don't necessarily correlate. You can think of imaginary things, or just colors. What are you learning there? Don't you learn by experience - like the experience of doing certain things and observing the results?

Sure, I'm thinking about things when I think. But all these thoughts, and things which I am thinking, are inside my mind, and just part of my act of thinking. Why would you think that something outside my mind, such as "consequences", has any causal power over my act of thinking? That makes no sense to me, because only thoughts enter into my act of thinking. So thoughts about consequences may enter into my act of thinking, as part of the act of thinking, but the consequences themselves don't enter into the act of thinking and therefore do not have any causal power within the act of thinking. — Metaphysician Undercover

As I have already stated, the consequences in your head are predictions of the consequences, not the consequences themselves. Who would ever say that ALL the consequences in your head exist out in the world? It seems to me that if determinism, then only one consequence exists outside your head, which may or may not be one that is predicted in your head, which explains why your sometimes fail to predict the consequences, which ironically are the ones you learn the most from.

I'm not going to bother answering irrelevant questions based on misunderstanding. When you learn to read carefully we might be able to begin a discussion. — John

The way I take this is: "I'm going to say whatever I want and to hell with anyone who doesn't understand what I say and asks questions because they don't understand what I said." Thanks for nothing, dude.

Correct. A computer making a "decision" is only metaphorical--it's a way that we think about it, anthropomorphizing it, to make it easier for us to conceptualize.

Decisions require conscious options. We pick one of the options we're conscious of.

You have only yourself to thank for the outcome here, dude.

For one, try answering that question that followed right after that one.
What is it that makes you learn to do things and not others? — Harry Hindu

It's the same question with different wording, so it has the same answer. My thinking is what makes me learn some things instead of others.

Second, thinking and learning don't necessarily correlate. You can think of imaginary things, or just colors. What are you learning there? — Harry Hindu

Just because I learn from thinking doesn't necessitate that all thinking results in learning. Only some thinking results in learning.

Don't you learn by experience - like the experience of doing certain things and observing the results? — Harry Hindu

No. I learn from the thoughts which interpret the experience, not from the experience itself. Experience is very fleeting, as time flies by rapidly. I must make a conscious effort to remember and review my experience in order to learn from it.

As I have already stated, the consequences in your head are predictions of the consequences, not the consequences themselves. Who would ever say that ALL the consequences in your head exist out in the world? It seems to me that if determinism, then only one consequence exists outside your head, which may or may not be one that is predicted in your head, which explains why your sometimes fail to predict the consequences, which ironically are the ones you learn the most from. — Harry Hindu

The consequences "in your head", are not consequences at all, they are imaginary. Imaginary things, like predictions, do not have no causal power.

I find it interesting that the experience of interacting with MU and John has created this prediction in my mind that their same nonsense will be repeated in any future interaction with them. This prediction of the outcome (a waste of my time) of interacting with them causes me to not want to interact with them at any point in the future. In other words, the memory of their past behavior causes me to predict the same behavior which then causes me to change my behavior towards them. So how is it again, that memories of past experiences don't have causal influence on our present behaviors in similar situations?

Correct. A computer making a "decision" is only metaphorical--it's a way that we think about it, anthropomorphizing it, to make it easier for us to conceptualize. — Terrapin Station

So, only humans make decisions? Are we anthropomorphizing other organisms that seem to behave in ways that imply that they make decisions to? Why is it useful to use the term "decision" as a metaphor for what the computer is doing when processing IF-THEN-ELSE statements? What is the exact process of making a decision? How does it proceed in time?

Decisions require conscious options. We pick one of the options we're conscious of. — Terrapin Station

No definition I have found mentions that it requires conscious options. Besides, introducing the word, "conscious" just opens a big can of worms and complicates things considerably.

Merriam-Webster says:
decide:
1
a : to make a final choice or judgment about
b : to select as a course of action
c : to infer on the basis of evidence

So, only humans make decisions? Are we anthropomorphizing other organisms that seem to behave in ways that imply that they make decisions to? Why is it useful to use the term "decision" as a metaphor for what the computer is doing when processing IF-THEN-ELSE statements? What is the exact process of making a decision? How does it proceed in time? — Harry Hindu

Only animals that have consciousness, that can have options in mind and then choose one. Whether that's only humans or not, I don't think we know for sure. I assume that a number of animals with complex brains not too far off from human brains can make decisions though.

Why is it useful to use the term "decision" as a metaphor for what the computer is doing when processing IF-THEN-ELSE statements? — Harry Hindu

That's kind of like asking why metaphors are useful in general. Aren't you familiar with metaphors in general?

What is the exact process of making a decision? How does it proceed in time? — Harry Hindu

Are you asking for a blueprint of just what goes on in the brain? Because we don't know that very well yet.

No definition I have found mentions that it requires conscious options. — Harry Hindu

What does that have to do with anything? Are you thinking that I'm doing a dictionary survey for you?

I find it interesting that the experience of interacting with MU and John has created this prediction in my mind that their same nonsense will be repeated in any future interaction with them. — Harry Hindu

Sorry to have to disillusion you, but it wasn't my behaviour which caused any of this, it was your interpretation of my behaviour which caused this. Your mind created this prediction, not my behaviour. Another person would have interpreted my behaviour in a completely different way, producing a completely different prediction, and that's why I think it's all a creation of your own mind.

Sorry to have to disillusion you, but it wasn't my behaviour which caused any of this, it was your interpretation of my behaviour which caused this. Your mind created this prediction, not my behaviour. — Metaphysician Undercover

How could I predict your behavior without having first observed it? You first behaved some way for me to interpret and then use that interpretation to make future predictions of your behavior. If I had never observed your behavior, I wouldn't be able to make a very good prediction. I'd just be making an educated guess of your behavior based on my experience with other people.

Another person would have interpreted my behaviour in a completely different way, producing a completely different prediction, and that's why I think it's all a creation of your own mind. — Metaphysician Undercover

Exactly. It seems like you're finally coming around. Predictions of some outcome has a causal influence on your actions. Different predictions can produce different actions. How do you explain how the same behavior can produce different interpretations, which in turn produce different predictions of the outcome?

Only animals that have consciousness, that can have options in mind and then choose one. Whether that's only humans or not, I don't think we know for sure. I assume that a number of animals with complex brains not too far off from human brains can make decisions though. — Terrapin Station

Then it isn't anthropomorphic to describe other non-human systems as making decisions.

That's kind of like asking why metaphors are useful in general. Aren't you familiar with metaphors in general? — Terrapin Station

Ok, then why are metaphors useful? Isn't it because there is an element of truth in them?

Are you asking for a blueprint of just what goes on in the brain? Because we don't know that very well yet. — Terrapin Station

No. I'm simply asking you what it's like for you to make a decision. Give me the process, step-by-step.

No definition I have found mentions that it requires conscious options. — Harry Hindu

What does that have to do with anything? Are you thinking that I'm doing a dictionary survey for you? — Terrapin Station

For one, it's a made-up definition. Second, it's a more complicated definition. Like I said, you open a can of worms when using the term, "conscious" - something that hasn't been clearly defined either. Why don't you simply try answering the question of how you make a decision so we can move this discussion forward.

Then it isn't anthropomorphic to describe other non-human systems as making decisions. — Harry Hindu

It is if people are thinking of it as a metaphor for humans making decisions.

Ok, then why are metaphors useful? Isn't it because there is an element of truth in them? — Harry Hindu

That's fine to say, but it doesn't make a metaphor not a metaphor.

No. I'm simply asking you what it's like for you to make a decision. Give me the process, step-by-step. — Harry Hindu

Oh. Well, it depends on the decision. It's not as if they're all the same. For whim decisions, it's simply like mentally throwing dice or hitting the button on the random number generator at random.org . For other decisions it's much more of a process.

For one, it's a made-up definition. — Harry Hindu

All definitions are. Definitions are not found under rocks. People make them up.

It is if people are thinking of it as a metaphor for humans making decisions. — Terrapin Station

Huh?

That's fine to say, but it doesn't make a metaphor not a metaphor. — Terrapin Station

That's fine to say, but it doesn't mean that a metaphor isn't saying something useful, and therefore truthful.

Oh. Well, it depends on the decision. It's not as if they're all the same. For whim decisions, it's simply like mentally throwing dice or hitting the button on the random number generator at random.org . For other decisions it's much more of a process. — Terrapin Station

I don't understand "mentally throwing dice" or "hitting the button on the random generator at random.org" Are you saying that you are visualizing rolling dice or hitting some button on a website when making a decision? Why don't you explain the process of one of these other decisions that you make.

All definitions are. Definitions are not found under rocks. People make them up. — Terrapin Station

I never said definitions are found under rocks. They are found in dictionaries.

Sure we can make up whatever definition of whatever string of symbols we want, but then in order to communicate, you'd need to use the definition that most people understand, which is the one in the dictionary.

Huh? — Harry Hindu

It depends on whether people are thinking about as a metaphorical human (at least in that respect).

That's fine to say, but it doesn't mean that a metaphor isn't saying something useful, and therefore truthful. — Harry Hindu

Sure, it's just not literally a decision, or it wouldn't be a metaphor.

Are you saying that you are visualizing rolling dice or hitting some button on a website when making a decision? — Harry Hindu

No . . . it's that it's simply the equivalent of doing that. Maybe you don't really make any whim decisions? That's possible.

Why don't you explain the process of one of these other decisions that you make. — Harry Hindu

You mean for non-whim decisions? I can do that, but you know the process of that already. What I wanted to express to you was that some decisions are just whim decisions (for me at least).

I never said definitions are found under rocks. They are found in dictionaries. — Harry Hindu

Some are, sure. But that's simply reporting common definitons that people made up. Surely if you're a philosophy fan you're aware of philosophers specifying at least somewhat idiosyncratic definitions. You can communicate just fine as long as you specify what the definition is.

How could I predict your behavior without having first observed it? You first behaved some way for me to interpret and then use that interpretation to make future predictions of your behavior. If I had never observed your behavior, I wouldn't be able to make a very good prediction. I'd just be making an educated guess of your behavior based on my experience with other people. — Harry Hindu

Yes, you observed my behaviour. Then you have a memory of my behaviour. The memory is an interpretation. You may use this interpretation when you make your prediction. There are many other interpretations which you hold, that you also might use in your prediction. Since you must choose which interpretations to use in your predictions, I don't see how any particular interpretation can be said to be causal. You choose the interpretation, so the proper "cause" is your choice. Can you explain how you interpret an interpretation as being causal, when each interpretation must be chosen?

It seems like you're finally coming around. Predictions of some outcome has a causal influence on your actions. Different predictions can produce different actions. — Harry Hindu

A prediction is nothing more than a complex interpretation. I must choose which predictions to believe in. How can the prediction itself be causal, when it is chosen?

How do you explain how the same behavior can produce different interpretations, which in turn produce different predictions of the outcome? — Harry Hindu

I explain this easily, it's a matter of choice. How do you explain this, if you affirm that interpretations are causal, when interpretations are chosen?