A self fulfilling short life expectancy

Benj96

Recently I've encountered quite a few people who claim "a feeling or intuition that they aren't going to live very long. That they will likely die in their 30s or 40s."

Perplexed, I asked why they thought so. Such an odd belief to hold I reflected. Most answered "I don't know, I just feel that I was never meant to live into old age."

Having considered the lifestyle of these people, they tend to have a "fuck it!" attitude. Do what you want, enjoy it while you can. "Live hard, die young" as the common phrase goes.
After all, they don't think they'll be around for long so why not take full advantage of their youth?

However there is a certain irony here. Many of them smoke, drink, party like crazy, take drugs, sleep little, take risks.

They act as if they are invicible. Hedonism, indulgence. Living as if tomorrow would never come around.

I'm sure, as far as I know, such a lifestyle is sure to shorten ones life expectancy. And therefore there is a kernel of truth in their inexplicable intuition that they won't live as long as the average.

Its a sort of self fulfilling prophecy, the premise dictates the behaviour that leads to the expectation outlined in the premise. Could this be self-destructive tendencies, self-loathing or low self esteem masqueraded by the subconscious?

Is the subconscious in this case - something instinctual, intuitive and not fully accesible or subject to articulation by the conscious mind - warning them that if they keep continuing this behaviour they're sure to die younger than they ought to?

Curiously, they seem relatively happy as people.

But perhaps that's because they're in denial of what their subconscious is trying to tell them (which manifests as the feeling they will die soon, a certain existential dread). You can permit yourself happiness if you willfully ignore the parts of your mind that are unhappy. Cognitive dissonance.

But it seems logical that it will surface in another way. As one cannot escape their own subconscious.

Maybe the only thing between them and a long life is contending with themselves.

Vera Mont

There may be a kind of fatalism involved: I'm going to die young anyway; why should i deny myself these pleasures while they last?
I did feel that way for a few years in my 20's. I grew responsible and all careful all that, once I had other people to consider, but I was still astonished to be approaching the millennium. Now it's just, ho-hum, lets see how long it lasts.

Benj96

There may be a kind of fatalism involved — Vera Mont

Yes I agree Vera.

I did feel that way for a few years in my 20's. I — Vera Mont

I can't deny I also had a period like this. When the going is truly good why would one ever consider that it couldn't continue to be the case. In ones 20s death is but a distant abstraction, too far down the line to consider seriously.

For me it was a close call, an near encounter with death that shook me up and forced me to reckon with my ultimate mortality. I'm much more cautious in lieu of that.

BC

They act as if they are invicible. Hedonism, indulgence. Living as if tomorrow would never come around. — Benj96

The act like they are invincible because it seems like they are. Hey, young people can get away with all sorts of things that will be a lot less tolerable in 30 years! They have not had the major injuries, infectious diseases, cancers, economic disasters, and so on to feel just how fast things can go from good to bad and from bad to worse. Given time, they will.

When I was in my 20s (1960s) the world looked A LOT BETTER than it does now. They may have negative self-fulfilling prophecies, but so does the world they live in! If we were making actual progress on global warming, maybe they would have a more positive attitude. If the economy were not so obscenely unbalanced in favor of the parasitic 1%, maybe they would have higher expectations.

Young people burn the candle at both ends--"smoke, drink, party like crazy, take drugs, sleep little, take risks"--because they can get away with it, at least for a while (x number of years). Eventually most young people get older and start to slow down. At some point they discover they can't quite drag themselves into work after a late night of sex, drugs, and rock and roll. After enough mornings of feeling crapulous, they will start cutting back.

Or they won't and they'll drop dead early.

Andrew4Handel

I grew up being told that the rapture was near. God was going to return to earth as Jesus Christ and The Saints would randomly float up into heaven.

My mother even predicted it would happen in 2000 because things a happened every thousand years.

This was in The Plymouth Brethren sect of Christianity. I occasionally thought my family might have been raptured, if I was the only person at home and didn't know where people were, and I couldn't make plans for the future. Later on I discovered other former members of this sect and some of them developed a similar outlook and apathy.

Based on your post it made me think what is that actual probability of Jesus return any moment? These kind of predictions have been made for thousands of years and never come true.

So even if this scenario was possible statistically it's imminent occurrence seems unlikely.

Likewise the probability of us living to a great age is statistically varied. So maybe people are making a false assessment based on information they have received. I received false religious information that made me fatalistic and really had a profound effect on me.

there are many factors in peoples lives that could lead to their assessment of their longevity. Upbringing, theology, family illness, desires etc.

BC

For me it was a close call, an near encounter with death that shook me up and forced me to reckon with my ultimate mortality. I'm much more cautious in lue of that. — Benj96

There you go.

The trick is to have a close encounter with the grim reaper and live to tell about it.

Benj96

↪Bitter Crank

Interesting and informative. Perhaps the body tells the mind when it's time to give up its naive and inconsiderate dispositions.

In that case it is not so much a case that we neccesarily want to reign ourselves in but rather that we are forced to by the natural slowing down, the increasing inefficiency of the body.

We are at the mercy of our gradually failing systems.

Youth is well compensated. A large margin for error and a grand tolerance for abuse and neglect. Old age is no such thing. Even the slightest corporeal inconvenience has a lasting reprimand.

A slow but inevitable reeling in of the unencumbered mind, until the corpus dictates the show.

Benj96

there are many factors in peoples lives that could lead to their assessment of their longevity. Upbringing, theology, family illness, desires etc. — Andrew4Handel

Absolutely. I agree. There are both internal and external influences at play in ones belief as to when they may meet their end.

Ultimately we cannot know, the only control we have is that offered by best medical practice to sustain health.

Eat a balanced diet, exercise regularly, get enough sleep, listen to the doctor, avoid drugs and excessive sunshine, mitigate stress, maintain strong social relationships and trustworthy dependencies.

Easier said than done. It's a total juggling act.

God was going to return to earth as Jesus Christ and The Saints would randomly float up into heaven. — Andrew4Handel

Out of curiosity, supposing the second coming was imminent and you knew of such, what would you do? Would you splash out, go wild, enjoy the pleasures of life while you could, or would you commit yourself to a pious, humble life correcting whatever wrongs you've done in preparation for judgement?

Andrew4Handel

Out of curiosity, supposing the second coming was imminent and you knew of such, what would you do? Would you splash out, go wild, enjoy the pleasures of life while you could, or would you commit yourself to a pious, humble life correcting whatever wrongs you've done in preparation for judgement? — Benj96

My intuition is that our desires are governed by biology or something innate. I would need good evidence to make sacrifices for an unknown future.

I think people can gravitate towards forms of Christianity or other religions that pander to their preferences or just act hypocritically and secretly indulge whilst claiming to adhere.

I feel like the threat of Jesus's return in my church was just a control mechanism. Now I tend to indulge myself based on not knowing what the future holds. I probably had to sacrifice too much as a child to do that again for a religious belief.

This experiment is famous https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_marshmallow_experiment

and other experiments in delayed gratification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_gratification

It looks at the reasons people might have for having more self control or the ability to focus on long term goals and rewards.

I have the problem in that I don't know whether there will be a long term reward and maybe no one really knows.

Andrew4Handel

Its a sort of self fulfilling prophecy, the premise dictates the behaviour that leads to the expectation outlined in the premise. Could this be self-destructive tendencies, self-loathing or low self esteem masqueraded by the subconscious? — Benj96

There is the nocebo effect which is the reverse of the placebo effect where there is some evidence that mental attitude can affect health outcomes.

There seems to be some evidence just beliefs and not behaviour can effect well being.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocebo

It is a controversial issue and it appears to suggest mental causation in the strong sense. The degree to which mind controls matter is controversial.

180 Proof

In that case it is not so much a case that we neccesarily want to reign ourselves in but rather that we are forced to by the natural slowing down, the increasing inefficiency of the body.

We are at the mercy of our gradually failing systems.

Youth is well compensated. A large margin for error and a grand tolerance for abuse and neglect. Old age is no such thing. Even the slightest corporeal inconvenience has a lasting reprimand.

A slow but inevitable reeling in of the unencumbered mind, until the corpus dictates the show. — Benj96

:100: Well said. In other words, kids: E-N-T-R-O-P-Y.

The trick is to have a close encounter with the grim reaper and live to tell about it. — Bitter Crank

:death: :flower:

BC

Would you splash out, go wild, enjoy the pleasures of life while you could, — Benj96

You asked A4H, but... what the hell. IF the 2nd coming were imminent, my guess is that going wild and enjoying the pleasures of the harbor during the countdown might move one out of the SAVED column into the DAMNED column. On the other hand, Jesus has a good nose for pious fraud, so last-minute piety might not wash either.

I'm not sure what the Divine thinks of satisfying fleshly desire, but in Deuteronomy 14:26 there are instructions for celebrating if one can not travel to the temple in Jerusalem to deliver one's tithe.

And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household.

Certainly, "lusteth after" sounds promising.

So, it would appear that God the Father isn't altogether opposed to us having a good time. Maybe God the Son and his mother are more up-tight. No idea where the Holy Ghost stands on partying. Being incorporeal, probably doesn't know what it is.

Personally, I'd like to spend the countdown at a nice gay bathhouse which, hopefully, would be busy. Like St. Catherine of Siena said, All the way to heaven IS heaven." Was she thinking of gay bathhouses too?

Vera Mont

The trick is to have a close encounter with the grim reaper and live to tell about it. — Bitter Crank

Been there, done that, got the plastic mesh mask... and, on the whole, I'd rather grow tomatoes.

Vera Mont

On the other hand, Jesus has a good nose for pious fraud, so last-minute piety might not wash either. — Bitter Crank

He was okay with the better-late-than-never kind of salvation in the NT. So is Muhammad, come to think of it. I knew a Muslim man once who was quite sure he could drink alcohol and neglect his prayers until the age of 40, but then he'd have to reform.

tomatohorse

Huh. That's odd. Perhaps it's an extension of things we hear so much in the media nowadays about how we're destroying the planet, capitalism is creating a dystopia, nuclear war is possibly near at hand, Covid and all that entailed, etc. etc. etc. It just seems like we're inundated with "things are going to shit and there's nothing you can do about it." From that perspective, I can see why people would feel like they probably aren't going to live all that long.

I can tell you that I am the exact opposite. I'm trying to stay healthy enough for long enough to hit Longevity Escape Velocity.

Agent Smith

This is spot on! I wonder if there are folks who survive this phase in life. How about also considering the history of such self-destructive ideas? I have a feeling some of me friends didn't make it past their early 40s (the rate at which they were drinkin', smokin', eatin', partyin', druggin', etc. was beyond extreme). :death: :flower: Requiescat in pace mes amies.

Paine

↪Agent Smith

I am curious why you frame the idea as a possibility rather than as something you know about directly.

Agent Smith

I am curious why you frame the idea as a possibility rather than as something you know about directly. — Paine

Well, I haven't actually died yet despite having felt that way and having conducted myself to match. Don't the lives of friends count as direct experience?

Paine

↪Agent Smith

Certainly. Pardon me, I misunderstood you the first time around.

Agent Smith

Certainly. Pardon me, I misunderstood you the first time around — Paine

:up:

There are many things to consider in re life expectancy. The OP's main point I've come across before, many, many, suns ago. It's odd that believing the opposite (I'll live long) doesn't have quite as much the same effect although it should in me humble opinion.

A self fulfilling short life expectancy

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