I don't remember agreeing (but I did follow orders) - I remember being told what the names of colors were and getting them wrong. I still do, as I am color blind. — Tom Storm
I have to say parsing the notion of color as a pathway to understand the merits of the term ineffable is bloody dull. — Tom Storm
Thirteen pages in and I am no closer to understanding what ineffable means other than the literal definition and associated, shall we say, poetic uses. — Tom Storm
Is it not the case that some people believe there are quasi mystical matters that are beyond words while others think that everything can be understood or, at least, turned into words? It's hardly a surprising bifurcation. — Tom Storm
The dance is a cure for those who would sanctify words. — Banno
Do you think that this notion of ineffable for some is a gateway to transcendence - a path for theists, idealists and assorted wacky metaphysicians to find solace? — Tom Storm
I prefer my illness to your cure. — unenlightened
I can get that, but you speak as though you’re forced to partake. — javra
As to this issue, I’d phrase it in more blunt terms: does one find that reality is - or else can in principle be made - equivalent to words?
If so, then everything that is can be expressible via words. If not, then some things of which we can be aware of will not be accurately expressible via words.
Maybe I'm missing something here, but I so far don't see it. — javra
Besides, there’s a lot more to meaning and its conveyance than words: I can verbally tell you anything about my state of being but if my body posture and mannerisms express otherwise, what will you make out of my words? — javra
Not sure how one goes about answering this question. My intuition that words are rather clumsy building blocks we use to feel our way around. — Tom Storm
You are here, after all. — Banno
Like your mountain? — Banno
As the question of public justification takes center stage, it becomes clear that posing the problem of justification in terms of a deliberative or a bargaining problem is a heuristic: the real issue is “the problem of justification”—what principles can be justified to all reasonable citizens or persons. — 6. Conclusion: The Social Contract and Justification
...with which you still play....that is the giant turd of analysis. — unenlightened
giant turd of analysis — unenlightened
Bloody Huge Grant. — Banno
The "is everything linguistically expressible" issue boils down to "can reality itself be in principle made equivalent to words". — javra
The attempted justification is that we agreed to use "red" for red; but we didn't get nay such choice. — Banno
Can you determine whether or not it is in one's "pragmatic favour"? — Janus
Can you determine whether or not it is in one's "pragmatic favour"? — Janus
…..and when we accept the natural limitations of a given system, we don’t need to lament what it can’t do. — Mww
….but can never evolve out of the kind of system it is. (Remember….dialectical consistency) — Mww
….an unjustified assertion, insofar as it is impossible to know all the things there are. The very best to be said is the mind has the capacity to know all things presented to it. — Mww
….it is absurd to suppose understanding of all things. The occasions in which some things are misunderstood verifies limits. Nothing ever being misunderstood is the only sufficient ground for the possibility of understanding all things. — Mww
On and on it goes. Give it up and go have a turkey leg or something. — Mww
The salient point with regard to the topic, what cannot be said, remains the fact that we do talk about red. Hence red is not ineffable. The retort is something like, that we can talk about the colour red but not the sensation of red. This sits oddly in the mouths of those who also claim that the colour red is the name of a sensation. And it is wrong, since we do talk about the sensation of red. — Banno
If you're claiming we don't have experiences of red and pain, you're making a strong claim and you'll need a strong argument for it. — frank
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