"God" credible only to him/her. — 180 Proof

Reminds me of an oft-used signage in corner-shops:
"IN GOD WE TRUST. EVERYONE ELSE PAYS CASH."

If you read the OP you'll realize that I am talking about the God of Abraham and pointing out that nothing in the bible commits one to supposing he created the world.

These points are, of course, too subtle for the likes of you.

:smirk:

I am talking about the God of Abraham and pointing out that nothing in the bible commits one to supposing he created the world — Bartricks

Ooops, I gave you too much credit again ... just more fatuous gibberish. You ought to try reading your bible, kid ...

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. — KJV, Genesis 1:1

I have made the earth, and created man upon it ... — KJV, Isaiah 45:12

Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. — KJV, Job 38:4

Etcetera.

And just for holy shits-n-giggles, this good ol' oldie derived from said "bible":

I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of all things visible and invisible [ ... ] — Nicene Creed (Theodore of Mopsuestia, 325 CE)

Use it to refer to your own bumhole if you want — Bartricks

I mean, I'd rather not.. butt... If you say so. :p

Here it means what I say it does. It's my thread. So if you want to understand what I am saying, then you need to understand that I mean by 'God' an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenvolent person, — Bartricks

Yes I understand, I didn't mean to offend or anything I was merely following what I thought to be the logical implications of such a God as you described. I don't know about the others here I was just trying to add some different viewpoints for you to consider in your quest to personally understand better the God you believe in. As I assume is the reason you're here right?

But of course you're allowed to consider or reject whatever ideas you wish.

So, don't tell me what Christians believe — Bartricks

I didn't think I had. I apologise again if you feel I overstepped. Personally I think Christianity has a good deal of very useful and insightful points and I try to respect religions and those that believe in them.

But I'm a little confused is all as to why one would start a philosophical thread on the subject - presumably to discuss with others, but then get personal when they express their views. They're just opinions, some more reasonable than others I would imagine.

I don't think "my bumhole" as you launched off about has any place in a formal/ academic discourse.

Im trying to afford you the respect you deserve to speak your mind here on the forum. I think it's only fair I am permitted the same in return.

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" Luke 6:31 - a great one from Christianity.

This is interesting - how does, as per you, Bartricks perform/fail to perform this amazing feat? I mean why does Bartricks want to sin ... so badly?

Read the OP.

Been there, done that. Read my previous post.

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/754305

Note: I would never, ever, read anything you have said twice.

So, read the OP - you clearly didn't, or you lack the understanding necessary to appreciate what it said - and then realize how your previous post made no sense whatsoever.

Do that. Or go away. Or post little crying with laughter faces. That's the only form these interactions between us take, for you have nothing to say, right?

You never cease to embarrass yourself, Bratshitz. :lol:

This thread is not about the coherence of theism. So pointing out that, in your view, the divine attributes contradict, is neither here nor there. It's false - there's no contradiction involved - but more importantly, it is not what this thread is about. You consistently fail to focus on what threads are about.

This is about the coherence and plausiblity of Christianity.

And what I am arguing is that there is no reason for a Christian to make a certain claim - a claim that they almost invariably do make. And that claim is that the world is God's creation.

I don't want a psychological or historical explanation of why Christians typically make that claim.

THis is a philosophy thread. So I am only interested in philosophical reasons.

There are three broad philosophical reasons why CHristians might think they need to make the claim. First, that it is made in the bible and they are committed to the view that the bible is a source of insight into how things are.

So I pointed out that it is not in the bible. The claims made in the bible do not explicitly refer to this place and could plausibly - much more plausibly, given their content -be about somewhere else.

Another reason is because it may be thought to be implied by the divine attributes. I explained why that is not so.

The third reason, is that certain arguments for God - such as the first-cause and design arguments - posit God as the cause of all else. But those are bad arguments and anyway a CHristian is not logically compelled to endorse them.

Your MO is to find a thread I have started and then not bother reading the OP but instead to make an inane comment and then post a crying with laughter face and then make a witless remark. It's tedious. :vomit: At no point do you say anything remotely philosophical or even mildly amusing. You're not adding value.

Now, again: read the OP and say something relevant to it or go away.

This thread is not about the coherence of theism — Bartricks

This is about the coherence and plausiblity of Christianity. — Bartricks

Is coherence and plausibility not much the same idea? And Christianity a subtype under the umbrella of theism? These two sentences seem to me to be a contradiction with one another.

there's no contradiction involved — Bartricks

On the contrary, I believe the very fact we are arguing is a contradiction. You are contradicting me and I'm contradicting you because we believe different things. So yes, contradiction is involved here.

And what I am arguing is that there is no reason for a Christian to make a certain claim - a claim that they almost invariably do make. And that claim is that the world is God's creation — Bartricks

Okay and you have your three reasons that you outlined after that assertion, all of which you don't believe/discredit.

So you already have your own answer no?

Why ask others if you already know? No matter what I say it seems I'm consistently failing to focus on your thread.

Your MO is to find a thread I have started and then not bother reading the OP — Bartricks

Oh look, another person who is apparently "failing to focus on your thread" . Bartricks perhaps, if everyone seems to you like they're not following your OP, perhaps it's worth considering that they actually are following it, and in fact you're just not listening to anyone, instead getting personal and a bit judgemental towards the other philosophers here.

Would you prefer to tell me what I think for me, or entertain new ideas?

Are you Christian? And is this issue you have with the claim of god being a first cause/creator reason enough in your mind not to be Christian anymore? If so, again I think you already have the answer you wanted. I don't see why I can help because I can only offer my interpretations not your own ones back at you (it wouldn't even be useful as you already know them).

Like I say, you seem to have problems focussing.

For example, you've just asked if I am a Christian. Now, I said I wasn't, didn't I?

So that means the answer to that question is 'no'. See?

And this thread is not - not - a request for historical or psychological explanations of why most Christians believe that God created the world.

This is a philosophy thread.

So, clearly what I am wondering is if there is any philosophical reason why a Christian should believe such a thing.

And then I explained why I think there is no philosophical reason why a Christian should beleive such a thing and good philosophical reason why they should not.

And then you said something irrelevant, namely that the concept of God is incoherent. That's not true, but it is also not relevant. It's like blurting that England is bigger than France. That's not true and it is also not relevant.

LOL, this is a pretty damn accurate summary of this post.

For example, you've just asked if I am a Christian. Now, I said I wasn't, didn't I? — Bartricks

Okay. Lol. Bartricks = not Christian. I got it.

And this thread is not - not - a request for historical or psychological explanations of why most Christians believe that God created the world. — Bartricks

Okay no historical explanations. No psychological explanations. Check. Got it.

So, clearly what I am wondering is if there is any philosophical reason why a Christian should believe such a thing. — Bartricks

Sorry I guess they can't then. No historical references are allowed. Nor psychological ones. They aren't allowed to cite what others believed historically (religious or philosophical, sorry plato, artistotle, Augustine, and all religious figures I guess and also those that were religious and philosophical (like Augustine) etc) nor are they allowed to think from their own point of view (psychological explanations).

So no. Can't offer a reason when all possible means to do so have been restricted/ denied.
Happy?

You have your answer.

Now you can continue to throw personal attacks and degrade my character or ability to philosophise if you want to resort to that. That's your perogative. But I suggest that perhaps you ought not to as that goes against the community guidelines.

Your MO: you shit the bed, then accuse me / others of the smell. Like ignoring this:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/754305

Not at all. You are unjustified and arguably incorrect in assuming that 'day' refers to a time period equivalent to one rotation of our planet or the period between one sunrise and the next. We have far less reason to make such a stupid assumption than we do to think that 'Earth' in the Genesis creation myth refers to our Earth. In fact given that the genesis of our existence, cosmically speaking, has always been something that invites philosophical and religious speculation, we have every reason to think the author of Genesis had precisely our world in mind. — Janus

Well, This suggests that the reporter of the Genesis fable was indeed a human who was familiar with the human invention of a 24h day. But how long would it take for a god to create a singularity? What was the 'had a rest' on the 7th day all about? An omni that needs a rest? What about time dilation? Were these 6 days based on an absolute universal time reference frame?
This universe continues to demonstrate change, it seems this creator was unable to 'finish the job,' and create a steady state universe which is not entropic.

This is just another of many bar tricks mad cap, attention seeking, threads that he/she/hesh needs to post to satisfy a need to type anonymous nonsense. I actually have no problem with his/her/hesh conjured supernatural omni, not being responsible for creating this universe. Atheists have been suggesting this universe has no god creator for years. Glad bar tricks wants to try, in his/her/hesh mad way, to help them in their cause
If the bizarre god characters bar tricks conjures in his/her/hesh mind, are too busy, involved on their own projects, not related to this universe or they/it is just 'hanging around,' as non-productive omnis, who had no responsibility for this world, and they don't exist anyway, then we can all simply ignore the OP and move to more interesting threads.

That's right, I think if someone can imagine an infinite, eternal being who is capable of creating the Earth, everything on it and everything else that exists, then they would be capable of imagining that time might have a different meaning for such a being than it does for us.

Abortrix seems to have aborted the mission, hard to figure out what motivates that boy...

As Tom Waits sings in "God's Away On Business":

I'd sell your heart to the junkman baby
For a buck, for a buck
If you're looking for someone to pull you out of that ditch
You're out of luck, you're out of luck

The ship is sinking
The ship is sinking
The ship is sinking

There's a leak, there's a leak, in the boiler room
The poor, the lame, the blind
Who are the ones that we kept in charge?
Killers, thieves, and lawyers

God's away, God's away,
God's away on Business. Business.
God's away, God's away,
God's away on Business. Business.

Digging up the dead with a shovel and a pick
It's a job, it's a job.
Bloody moon rising with a plague and a flood
Join the mob, join the mob

It's all over
It's all over
It's all over

There's a leak, there's a leak in the boiler room
The poor, the lame, the blind
Who are the ones that we kept in charge?
Killers, thieves, and lawyers

God's away, God's away,
God's away on Business. Business.
God's away,
God's away on Business. Business.

[Instrumental Break]

God damn there's always such a big temptation
To be good, To be good
There's always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby
It's a deal, it's a deal

God's away, God's away,
God's away on Business. Business.
God's away, God's away,
God's away on Business. Business.

I narrow my eyes like a coin slot baby,
Let her ring, let her ring.

God's away, God's away,
God's away on Business.
God's away, God's away,
God's away on Business. Business.

Tom Waits — Janus

To me, he's like Bob Dylan, good lyrics, awful voice. :smile:

hard to figure out what motivates that boy... — Janus

Well, only his shrink knows that one, and perhaps the god(s) in his (since you suggested 'male' with your 'boy' label) head.

To me, he's like Bob Dylan, good lyrics, awful voice. — universeness

I look for character and resonance in singing voices, not purity of tone and pitch (although I'm not against that either, if character and resonance are there as well), so I don't have a problem with the likes of Leonard Cohen, Tom Waits and Bob Dylan.

I look for character and resonance in singing voices, not purity of tone and pitch (although I'm not against that either, if character and resonance are there as well), so I don't have a problem with the likes of Leonard Cohen, Tom Waits and Bob Dylan. — Janus

Indeed - to me these are the great voices. Character, uniqueness, expression. Try to sing a Tom Waits song with a conventional 'good' voice and it almost disappears.

Have you seen this?

None of you seem capable of focusing on the issue. It's like trying to have a discussion with little children.

There's an OP. To challenge what I argued there you need either to show that it is essential to being an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent person that one would create a world such as this one, or you need to argue that something in the bible commits the Christian to the view that this place - not 'a place', but this place specifically - was created by God. And don't just quote a passage without having read the OP.

So, clearly what I am wondering is if there is any philosophical reason why a Christian should believe such a thing. — Bartricks

No, because philosophy concerns human reason whereas God is conceived of as beyond human reason. The moment we start philosophizing a God who neatly fits into our conception of reason we are not talking about the God of Israel.

That's false. Christians have always believed that reason will confirm God's existence.

Sure, man. Just remember that the foundation of your faith is revelation, not reason. The figure of Jesus Christ, who is 100% God and 100% man, is your theological starting point. Now go philosophize.

If you want to philosophize about some first mover go ahead. Good luck getting to the God of Israel never mind Jesus.

Nothing you have said is correct.

Strangely, I can listen to Leonard Cohen's voice much more than I can Dylan or Tom Waits.
Cohen was a phenomenal lyrics writer. But I think every cover version I have heard of his songs like 'hallelujah' or 'everybody knows' sounds better to me than when Leonard sings it, I still own his 'best of' albums.

↪Moses Nothing you have said is correct. — Bartricks

:lol: It would be so cool if bar tricks was typing this to the original Moses! :rofl:
Perhaps as a disembodied booming voice from a burning bush.
Even better if he added 'and thy mother and father were immoral for engaging in procreation. Betrayers of the antinatalist way!'

YEAH, ok bar tricks, I will stop typing off OP, before a mod insists, I refer to the content of the OP only.

Ok bro. It's nice to hear your Christianity is built on pure reason. You're a sharp one. :up:

Does the concept of God - defined as I defined God - entall that God created the world? No. — Bartricks

Agree - but then how did the world get here? Did God (per your definition) set up the conditions that allowed the world to come into existence? Did God permit some other powerful entity to create the world? Or perhaps there is some other explanation?

Does the bible commit a CHristian to believing that God created the world? So far as I can see, no. — Bartricks

I am not a biblical scholar, but I'm pretty sure that in the sentence "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." the phrase "the earth" is referring to the planet Earth that we all live on.

But since I am not a biblical scholar I am not an authoritative source to answer this question. But given that your question is directed at religious Christians, I suggest that you go to the source and pose your question to a religious Christian group. This site seems as good a place as any to find an appropriate place: Top 10 Bible Forums, Discussions and Message Boards