I agree, as do most, if not all rational people imo. Excess suffering remains a problem to be solved and human science is clearly motivated to continue to try to solve it. Advocating a solution of extinction or non-existence, is simply stupid.

Death is not the worst thing. — Athena

It can be. For the one that got left behind. When this person I was very closed to decided to do it, my body went into convulsion and I couldn't feel anything except the ground under me was shaking my whole body. I couldn't cry because I was also numb. If you want to imagine how it felt -- think of screaming your lungs out but no sound comes out.

I suspect that my spirit died that day, but I'm not sure. Because hey, I'm living a "normal" life, interacting with people, having a comfortable life, having sex, having dinner, laughing. I never got the so-called "therapy" for the grieving.

But ask me if I could go back in time, what date would that be. The morning before the death, because then I could stop it. I knew I could. I still believe I could have done something.

I agree, as do most, if not all rational people imo. Excess suffering remains a problem to be solved and human science is clearly motivated to continue to try to solve it. Advocating a solution of extinction or non-existence, is simply stupid. — universeness

(Hyper)sensitive peeps, among which number antinatalists, are for me canaries in coal mines - their hyperalgesia is kinda a superpower, buying time for "normal" folks to respond to imminent danger. You could say, in a sense, that hyperalgesics/antinatalists are the nociceptive system of the superorganism that is humanity.

The future, however, can be radically different - like how bioluminiscence has delinked light from heat, we maybe able to do the same with suffering, decouple the detection of injury from the unpleasantness associated with it.

Agreed :up:

I only want to add a brief comment on your argument: The suffering or act of suffering caused by uncertainty. We never really know what would happen in the next months or even the next year. If we are positive we would say the things would be better but if we are negative we would say it would be "a bad period of time" again.
To be honest... I think that the only way to face future is attitude and maturity. Keep fighting against the obstacles! :fire:

Yep, uncertainty is the millstone around our necks, the cross we havta bear. I propose we play ... with expectation (worst) and hope (best). If given a choice, I prefer paranoia (le choses sont contre nous), but Forrest Gump showcases pronia, fictional though he may be.

with expectation (worst) and hope (best).

:100:

Thanks for sharing that. All potential suicides should read your post and reflect on how such an action can affect the lives of others. I hope your best moments of joy in life are yet to come.
Maybe reading a post such as yours could even stop a suicide. Let's hope so.

(Hyper)sensitive peeps, among which number antinatalists, are for me canaries in coal mines - their hyperalgesia is kinda a superpower, buying time for "normal" folks to respond to imminent danger. You could say, in a sense, that hyperalgesics/antinatalists are the nociceptive system of the superorganism that is humanity. — Agent Smith

Yeah, I feel pity for them too, who wants to be a caged canary? The first to die if the gas escapes, but yeah, perhaps they don't die in vain. We can learn to work harder to solve excessive human suffering due to their complaints regarding their own conceptions of what they regard as their own intolerable lives or what they exemplify as the intolerable lives of others.

To be honest... I think that the only way to face future is attitude and maturity. Keep fighting against the obstacles! :fire: — javi2541997

BANZAI!

BANZAI! — universeness

BANZAI! Brother :sparkle: :fire:

Yeah, I feel pity for them too, who wants to be a caged canary? The first to die if the gas escapes, but yeah, perhaps they don't die in vain. We can learn to work harder to solve excessive human suffering due to their complaints regarding their own conceptions of what they regard as their own intolerable lives or what they exemplify as the intolerable lives of others. — universeness

With great power comes great responsibility. — Uncle Ben

BANZAI! Brother :sparkle: :fire: — javi2541997

I fully applaud your intent to fight against despair and I absolutely call you brother in that. I will willingly shout/scream BANAZI with you as we charge with gleaming bayonets drawn, against our common enemy .... despair.
BUT I would have fought whole heartedly against the fascist Japanese in WW 2. I would have killed the guy in the picture, in battle (or at least, I would have tried to) and I would seek to free the subservient looking female in the picture from what seems to be an imposed cultural subservience (but only of-course, if she consented to my interference and help.)

I understand and respect your point. I didn't like war (even Mishima was rejected by Japanese army...) but I really respect the Samurai/Bushido thought to fight against despair and dishonour. I think the problem are politicians not the theories.
I want to live as a samurai because I believe in loyalty, friendship, sacrifice as a way of life. I don't see it as a mechanism to put on a battle. I just want to get it right in my life. If I ever acted as a traitor or a malicious man, please kill me or I would commit seppuku.

I accept your honourable intentions, but I remain concerned about the samurai tradition of obedience to superiors without question. You know such authority can become utterly corrupt, just like some of the politicians you mention. My advice would be to completely abandon that part of Bushido, only be loyal to those who have proven worthy of your loyalty and even then, only for as long as they remain worthy.

but I remain concerned about the samurai tradition of obedience to superiors without question. You know such authority can become utterly corrupt, just like some of the politicians you mention. — universeness

I am agree that Bushido has some failures in the practice of the doctrine. But to be honest, I really think the problem is not in the samurai's part but in the authority.
It is heartbreaking to see how some superiors do not respect and consider the loyalty of samurais.
Then, the problem is not of Bushido (doctrine) but the vicious politicians and superiors (actors)

:up:

and where can it be done?

also why not suicide? and what is the way to live for an atheist, if not hedonism?

or can I be suicidal and not depressed? just seeing world as what it is and choosing suicide as a rational response?

High specialised technical or otherwise knowledge comes at the cost of time invested in it. As it would practically be impossible to learn the mechanism of every invention it is better to have the manual or instructions for its replication somewhere.

Addressed in OP that this (specialization) would be brought up and is tangential to the pessimistic point.

Now there will be posters who will wax on about how we are a system and this is tangential to the point. There will also be posters who will try to explain about cultural and economic progression, especially about specialization. And whilst obviously true in a descriptive sense, is tangential to the point. — schopenhauer1

Not tangential at all. I’ve answer your question fully.

Let me repeat it. For every man made invention there should be a repository of that knowledge/instruction of replicating that invention. When something is invented in a lot of cases it’s also patented.

This I’m sure is stored somewhere

We are disconnected from that which sustains us. — schopenhauer1

It has always been thus. Nothing has changed. I am sure that pre-technology the world was just as mysterious as it is today. Life has always been disconnected from what has sustained it.

And one could equally have written: "I’m particularly talking about the aspect of human existence where we cannot understand the forces of nature that we use and replicate. If anything, we can know and/or replicate a very very small portion of it."

In fact, we don't need to "know" what sustains us if our approach is Pragmatic. Pragmatism requires neither a pessimistic nor optimistic frame of mind. Pragmatism works equally well both pre and post-technology. Pragmatism avoids a descent into pessimism because of not "knowing" what sustains us.

I press the enter key. I don't "know" why what happens happens. I am just optimistic that what I intend will happen will happen.

It diminishes us to helpless cogs that can have no real agency. — schopenhauer1

It is your judgement that we are diminished. Many of us don't feel that way. I think you are a pessimist first by temperament. This seems like just a post hoc search for rational justification, which is not hard to find.

See that, post hoc. Latin jargon. I must be a real philosopher.

It has always been thus. Nothing has changed. I am sure that pre-technology the world was just as mysterious as it is today. Life has always been disconnected from what has sustained it. — RussellA

The workings of the universe to prehistoric humans would have been mysterious, but there would have been a reverence to the mystery as well. More importantly though, a person and their clan would be able to take care of themselves, making impactful decisions that truly drive the direction in which they live. Goals that were set were clearly defined by those who achieved them, and required the use of the capacities of the entire body. Tools consisted of mechanisms that were understood by everyone who used them.

The modern world is mysterious, but in a mundane and/or perplexing way. Our goals are frequently not defined by us, and the tools we use are always disconnected from our own understanding entirely or nearly so. We use only a subset of our body's capabilities to live - which makes the body atrophy, unless one engages in a clownish routine of maintenance to give the illusion that one's body is being used for what it was meant to be used for. We survive not through our own autonomous efforts but because we satisfy some needed role in an artificial system.

Is it any wonder that people are so miserable?

I feel like Hannah Arendt would probably interest you. She's more optimistic than you when it comes to work, but her Human Condition has a ton of illuminating passages on how our ability to create things has almost gotten bigger than us. She says we no longer have the ability to even talk about these things; we've lost the "speech" so to speak about what is we rely on, and any form of understanding is gatekept by the scientists or the people making it. It's unsustainable.

:roll: We do not even "understand" how we move our fingers and toes let alone what our brains are doing moment to moment or even why pessimists bother whinging on and on about "pessimism" ... Big whup. :yawn:

:up:

:clap:

The DIY craze (80s-90s) had something to do with post-apocalyptic survival strategies people were thinking up during the US-Soviet nuclear standoff. It was no longer enough to be just able to use machines, it was vital that we know how they work and how to repair/maintain/build them. Machines had to be demystified, their intricate design and mechanisms hadta be, well, declassified in order to ensure a large pool of autodidactic experts who could take up the mantle of deceased doyens if and when necessary. :snicker:

We are disconnected from that which sustains us. — schopenhauer1

Where I live most people simply take something apart when it breaks and fix it.

I imagine this statement is closer to the truth in some western cities.

I guess you'd have to be an idealist to have reached such a conclusion so what would you suggest contrary to our current state of being?

Ah good to know I could go to TPF to get the assholes’ guide to philosophy.

Ad hom repeat.

What's the evidence for pessimism?