If you set up a top down system with the goal of diverting blame from the leader then that prevents the bottom up feedback that tunes the system to be effective. The system lacks the independent thought and truth telling it needs to function well. — apokrisis
let me tell you this: honor code or not, you can’t win a war with lies...
... The military has, in fact, developed a narrative that’s proven remarkably effective in insulating it from accountability...
... Senior military leaders have performed poorly...
...there’s been no accountability for failure.
...military leaders wielded metrics and swore they were winning even as those wars circled the drain.
...the military and one administration after another lied to the people about those wars, they also lied to themselves, even though such conflicts produced plenty of internal “papers” that raised serious concerns about lack of progress.
...senior military and civilian leaders realized that war, too, was going poorly almost from the beginning, yet they reported the very opposite
...so much “progress” being made in official reports even as the military was building its own rhetorical coffin
President Volodymyr Zelensky has hit back at Russia's annexation moves by seeking accelerated membership of Nato.
That is a marked change from the start of the war, when he announced he would stop pushing for membership of the 30-strong Western defensive alliance because of Nato's concern about confrontation with Russia. He knows, however, that he will have to persuade every member state to agree, and Turkey for one is unlikely to. — What Russian annexation means for Ukraine's regions · Paul Kirby · BBC · Sep 30, 2022
Trouble is, he's talking about the US military... — Isaac
we were talking about the competence - the military structure, equipment, logistics, training, morale - of the Russian forces. The operational effectiveness of a system where criticism is suppressed. — apokrisis
Slightly different, I agree, — Isaac
At best you've given a mechanism whereby an imperialist Putin might, despite his intentions, have only achieved a substandard army, but you're far from a compelling argument. Plausible, sure, but hardly a coup de grâce. — Isaac
Ultimately, I've just got no reason at all to start from the assumption that Putin is a fierce imperialist, so I don't need to find ways to explain events through that narrative. If I start from the assumption that Putin is a greedy opportunist, nothing about the current events doesn't fit. — Isaac
When I was fighting in Irpin in March — Wolfman
The Russian army went on the offensive against a (roughly) peer adversary while numerically disadvantaged - that's a military feat in and of itself. It managed to defeat the Ukrainian army in the first part of the war (a blow from which the Ukrainians have since recovered) and take substantial parts of Ukraine, which, based on the troops deployed, likely coincided with their initial wargoals. — Tzeentch
"The poor performance of Russia's armed forces during its invasion of Ukraine has been costly for Russia's military leadership, highly likely resulting in the dismissal of at least six Russian commanders since the start of hostilities in February 2022," the Defence Ministry said in a Sunday tweet.
https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-lost-fired-generals-since-ukraine-war-uk-intelligence-2022-8
cracks began to appear in the Russian army almost immediately. Ukraine’s air capabilities, Russia’s first and most important target, survived the initial onslaught. Russia’s VDV, famed paratroopers, were dropped without support into heavily defended positions. They were sacrificed so recklessly that some wondered if Putin was purging their ranks. By land, Russian invaders raced towards their objective. Instead of destroying resistance, they often bypassed it. This resulted in their logistical support (convoys transporting fuel, food, and ammunition) being ambushed. Russian tanks ground to a halt, now useless, and Russian soldiers began looting food as they faced starvation. Russia’s military was depending on unsecured radio frequencies. Ukrainian intelligence could listen to or jam these communications at will, and civilians began broadcasting taunts directly to Russian soldiers. The invasion date of 22/02/22 appeared to have been chosen because it was a memorable number rather than for a practical reason — Ukraine’s fields had recently turned from ice to mud, restricting vehicles to predictable road routes.
https://thinkmagazine.mt/the-terror-and-incompetence-of-russias-warfare/
perhaps you are confusing yourself because you want to critique the US as an imperialist superpower rather than engage with the specific point — apokrisis
You seem to be arguing that Putin didn’t feel he needed a modernised army when he said he did, nor that he felt Nato wasn’t actually a threat, despite always acting like it was. — apokrisis
So I’ve won the argument but now you want to bicker about the margin of my victory? — apokrisis
The puzzle at the centre of this is then that Putin seems a fierce imperialist — apokrisis
Folk are trapped in cages of their own making. They start out being successful in the terms the world has given them, but then get locked into that mode of success long past any apparent true purpose. — apokrisis
I'm not sure where the idea comes from that the Russian army is in such a poor condition. — Tzeentch
Ukraine is of incredible strategic importance for the Russians, and they have consistently made clear the sensitivity of this region over the past decades. Ukraine is by far the most important region to Russia, outside of Russia proper. — Tzeentch
Can you link to even one that argues the opposite in convincing fashion? — apokrisis
But the debate is around the extent to which 'fierce imperialist' is even part of Putin's story. — Isaac
Why would I want to? — Tzeentch
So what these authors are really criticizing here is not the Russian military, but their own false conceptions of the Russian military. — Tzeentch
But on the surprising incompetence side, we have systemic corruption, a historic undervaluing of logistics, a lack of NCO structure, no routine cross force training, a lack of communication gear, a lack of training hours, low morale and lack of mission preparation, plus umpteen other inadequacies that became apparent ... — apokrisis
...your “small but perfectly formed fighting force” ... — apokrisis
Not the failed attempt of quickly reaching the capital?The only real blunder I have seen from the Russian military is the sinking of the Moskva. — Tzeentch
The Russians’ armored columns were not dispersed and spread out across a massive plain, as in the World War II during the largest tank battle in history at the Battle of Kursk (500 east of Kyiv). In hindsight the Russian desire for need for offensive speed and mass, vs dispersed security and maneuver, was a poor strategy. Instead, these massive, armored columns were attacking in formation on multiple lane highways in convoys that were up to 40 miles long. Javelins fired from up to a mile away with precision accuracy, completely destroying the first tanks or BMPs could stall the whole column. Then pre-sighted artillery claimed the majority of Russian casualties. For several days the 40-mile armored column north of Kyiv was stalled after sustaining massive casualties.
Not the failed attempt of quickly reaching the capital? — ssu
Kiev has almost 3 million inhabitants, Kharkiv has roughly 1.5 million, Odessa has 1 million, Dnipro has almost 1 million, Zaporizhia has 750,000, and even Mariupol has almost 500,000.If defended, these large urban areas could take considerable time and casualties to clear and occupy.
Therefore, the best course of action for Russian troops would be to bypass urban areas and mop them up later.
Kiev poses a similar challenge and, as the nation’s capital, possesses great symbolic value for whichever side holds it.
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