Calling it a "mood" seems like it is being shrugged off or taken too lightly. — 0 thru 9

The talk about 'mood' I was quoting from elsewhere, in work by Matthew Ratcliffe, doesn't take things lightly. It's about 'deep mood' which he distinguishes from everyday talk about mood..

Such a 'deep mood' is our very way of being in the world. In this sense I (think I) completely agree with the outlook of Noble Dust. (Philosophically my phrasing comes from Heidegger, but he thought our deep mood was 'angst', an odd formulation) To the clinician a report of 'depression' may be a 'malady', a 'mood disorder', and perhaps they are bound to look at it that way, given that people come to them saying, This is how I am, what can you do for me? - But to the person concerned it may be the way the world is.

Then, for me, it's up to the person concerned whether they address how they're feeling as a 'malady' -because they wish they could feel better about things - or as a 'way the world is'. (The melancholy exception would be if they seem to stop being able to function as a human being, or express suicidal thoughts that another person.)

The value of a cbt-type approach, if the person decides to try out the 'malady' angle, is that cbt is based on a modern-day version of Stoicism which, as I understand it, tries to enable you to cordon off for yourself zones in which you can still enjoy or at least feel rewarded by life, instead of being consumed by the darkness of your feelings about life and the world. I confess I've tried it without success, and the evidence is only of short-term benefit, but it definitely benefits some people.

Let's leave the politics for another thread, eh? But poetics is good, if you can avoid the counterproductive condemnation.

There now, they're all gone,
almost as if they never had been
I turn my eyes backwards and I gaze into my own gaze
I turn my eyes inwards and I gaze into my own face

I built my prison stone by stone
how many useless knots I tied
I dug the pitfalls in my path
how many useless tears I cried
here to build in worlds of beauty
no-one made a joy a duty
no-one, no-one but me

I saw the birds that flew so free
I envied them their grace divine
I saw the dancer's airy steps
theirs was a different world than mine
here to build in worlds of glory
no-one made my sad sad story
no-one, no-one but me

when useless walls come tumbling down
sparrows will sing on the fallen stones
Adam will pull the knife from his brow
Eve will lick the salt from his wounds
free to make my own tomorrow
free to free my heart from sorrow
free to hear and smell and see
free to be me, free to be free

Cutting the Strings

An illness is a medical condition, depression is a mental disorder, mental disorders are not medical conditions. Clear enough? Maybe I should be straightforward: depression is neither an illness, a sickness nor a disease.

Evangelism is against the site guidelines, so tread carefully.

Evangelism is against the site guidelines, so tread carefully. — Noblosh

I did not evangelise at all, I didn't ask anyone to convert to Christianity. In fact, the video I posted is of a hard-core atheist (Jacques Fresco) whom I admire. The book I posted also has nothing to do with Christianity. So please. Get your facts straight. Mr. No Blushin'.

Political persuasion is considered evangelism by the site guidelines. But I'm really not the one to judge what would constitute an offense on this site, I've just given you an advice.

Political persuasion is considered evangelism by the site guidelines. But I'm really not the one to judge what would constitute an offense on this site, I've just given you an advice. — Noblosh

And? Where have I evangelised? I just made the point that a certain political persuasion is disempowering - I made no reference to whether it's true, worth holding, the right or wrong one etc. There are beliefs which are disempowering, and that's just a fact. If you believe that because of so and so factor of your environment (say discrimination, racism, etc.) you are depressed or in a bad situation, then that is disempowering. It's because of that situation that you are depressed, it's not within your control - so you don't do anything except cry about your disadvantages. But, if your belief, on the other hand, is that how I feel, and how I react depends on myself - I am in control - and not whatever external circumstance, then that is empowering - it allows you to free yourself.

If you need proof of communism being disempowering, just look at the Eastern European countries that have been ravaged by it - you'll see more negative and pessimistic thinking there than anywhere else.

And by the way, that small point about communism was 0.01% of my post. That was a secondary point more than anything else. And just some advice from me: I don't think you're in any position to judge or give me advice about forum rules, etc. You barely have 30 posts, you're a new member, take your time and understand how things go around here first. If any of the moderators think there's a problem with my post, I'm sure they could contact me by PM about it, and it will be settled.

I get it, you blame depression solely on external locus of control. But I argue that internal locus of control is in no way better, it gives you the false impression that you're in control, fully responsible for both your successes and your failures when people in fact depend on each other and are affected by external circumstances for better or worst. We're not free just because we think we are, we're in a constant constraint by factors beyond our direct control.

And just some advice from me: I don't think you're in any position to judge or give me advice about forum rules, etc. You barely have 30 posts, you're a new member, take your time and understand how things go around here first. — Agustino

Spare me your pooh-pooh. You don't welcome advices from me, point taken.

it gives you the false impression that you're in control, fully responsible for both your successes and your failures when people in fact depend on each other and are affected by external circumstances for better or worst. We're not free just because we think we are, we're in a constant constraint by factors beyond our direct control. — Noblosh

False impression or not isn't even what's under the discussion. What's under discussion is solely what brings the best performance in you? What maximises your chances of escaping your current circumstances for some better ones? What maximises your chances of beating the odds?

Clearly being pessimistic, negative, and acutely aware of what's holding you back won't do that. Say I want to create a new church community. If I start thinking about all the things holding me back - no experience, not enough money, etc. - I will never do it. I'm guaranteed in fact to never do it. But if I start thinking I can do it, and start asking useful questions instead of complaining, such as "what steps can I take now to do it? Who do I need to contact and who could help me? etc." I actually stand a chance - regardless of how small - of doing it. Even if my conviction was based on no evidence at all.

Take Ghandi. Do you think Ghandi would ever have freed India had he started thinking "ahh the British Empire is too strong, there is no chance. Let's just give up, we're a smaller and weaker nation, we don't have any weapons, there's nothing we can do"? Clearly not. He would have ended up some sorry and depressed man. What helped him achieve the impossible was nothing but his sheer conviction, and strength of will in believing that it was possible, and then seeking to do anything in his power to make that possibility true. He had no evidence as such for believing it... but it's the belief that made the evidence possible, and not the other way around.

An illness is a medical condition, depression is a mental disorder, mental disorders are not medical conditions. Clear enough? Maybe I should be straightforward: depression is neither an illness, a sickness nor a disease. — Noblosh

It's not more clear to me because I already understood you were drawing a distinction between medical condition and mental disorder. What I do not understand is what said distinction consists of. How would I be able to determine one from the other? What makes them different?

I'll try to demonstrate how I see these as the same:

The way I see it -- "depression", as a term we use to describe someone's mental disorder, comes straight out of the medical model. There is an underlying problem which has symptoms for determining that such and such is the problem and also connecting said symptoms to a cure -- the underlying problem, the malady of health, explains both the symptoms and the cure, or is meant to lead to a successful cure if one is not yet known. If said cure attached to the malady does not cure it, then we're wrong about our description of the underlying malady, even if we know the symptoms.

↪Agustino Evangelism is against the site guidelines, so tread carefully. — Noblosh

I disagree with a lot of what Agustino has to say, but I wouldn't accuse him of evangelizing politically or religiously -- certainly no more than a lot of us evangelize from our personal pulpit point of view.

It's because of that situation that you are depressed, it's not within your control - so you don't do anything except cry about your disadvantages. But, if your belief, on the other hand, is that how I feel, and how I react depends on myself - I am in control - and not whatever external circumstance, then that is empowering - it allows you to free yourself. — Agustino

IF someone believes that they are in control and not at the mercy of external circumstances, then they probably won't be depressed in the first place. If they don't believe they are in control and are at the mercy of external events, telling them to snap out of it probably will not work.

People are sometimes taught passivity and inability, but fairly often we teach ourselves further lessons of inability. We structure our thinking about our 'situation' as a no-win negative situation, and then we get stuck. Maybe we don't like our job and we don't believe there are good and better jobs out there. We don't do well at the job, then people at work get angry at us, but we don't care, and down the spiral we go. We could change our ideas about work, jobs, and our place in them -- without giving up everything else we believe.

Maybe she wishes that her children would pay more attention to her at Christmas, Thanksgiving, her birthday, or Mothers Day. They habitually don't, but every year she expects that they will, and is freshly crushed each year when they don't -- once again -- perform as desired. She gets angry each time, and reaffirms her suspicion that her children don't care about her, and down the spiral she goes. She could revise her expectations and recognize that her children probably won't fulfill her expectations.

If we don't recognize the constraints we're under, positive thinking can lead us so far. We can better our condition with that type of thinking, sure, but that's not what depressed people crave for, they crave for purpose, not status and you fail to understand that and so your commentary is off the point.

That was no accusation, I realize I don't have any right to accuse anyone on this site what I don't realize is why can't take it as a simple tip.

The talk about 'mood' I was quoting from elsewhere, in work by Matthew Ratcliffe, doesn't take things lightly. It's about 'deep mood' which he distinguishes from everyday talk about mood..

Such a 'deep mood' is our very way of being in the world. In this sense I (think I) completely agree with the outlook of Noble Dust. (Philosophically my phrasing comes from Heidegger, but he thought our deep mood was 'angst', an odd formulation) To the clinician a report of 'depression' may be a 'malady', a 'mood disorder', and perhaps they are bound to look at it that way, given that people come to them saying, This is how I am, what can you do for me? - But to the person concerned it may be the way the world is.

Then, for me, it's up to the person concerned whether they address how they're feeling as a 'malady' -because they wish they could feel better about things - or as a 'way the world is'. (The melancholy exception would be if they seem to stop being able to function as a human being, or express suicidal thoughts that another person.)

The value of a cbt-type approach, if the person decides to try out the 'malady' angle, is that cbt is based on a modern-day version of Stoicism which, as I understand it, tries to enable you to cordon off for yourself zones in which you can still enjoy or at least feel rewarded by life, instead of being consumed by the darkness of your feelings about life and the world. I confess I've tried it without success, and the evidence is only of short-term benefit, but it definitely benefits some people. — mcdoodle

Thanks for the reply. (Y) I completely agree with the context in which you used the word "mood". That is the way to give it the gravitas it deserves. Well done! Just wanted to distinguish that from the dismissive attitude of some well-meaning bystander: "oh, you are just in a passing blue mood. No big deal, just push harder. Onward soldier!" Thank you for the eloquent distinction between the two.

I can't help but notice almost everyone aligning in the same group, which believes that depression is a mood. — Question

There are two senses of the term:

One refers to what's known as "major depression" or "clinical depression" in the medical field.

The other refers to being "bummed out" or "sad" about something more in the sense of a "mood" that will pass as circumstances change or as time passes--for example, you're depressed because you didn't get some job, or you're struggling with bills, or whatever.

Both are brain states. Major/Clinical depression is a chronic/persistent brain state, however, and it's not precipitated by circumstances--there's not some clearly identifiable personal tragedy or disappointment that is catalyzing it, where if we could just change those circumstances or just let more time pass, the brain state will cease. Major/clinical depression is a persistent brain state that people attempt to find rationalizations for.

In other words, we could say that circumstances cause the mood form of depression, and it's alleviated when circumstances are different. But with major/clinical depression, the brain state is the cause, and one might seek things to pin the brain state on, but those things aren't the cause. Particular brain structures and tendencies towards certain brain functioning are the cause.

I'd assume in a thread like this that we're talking about major/clinical depression and not just the passing or "mood" sense of the term.

Pretty much everyone experiences the mood sense every once in awhile. It's not a big deal for most people, because it doesn't last long. By its nature, it's not chronic or persistent.

Re major/clinical depression, not everyone experiences that, but plenty of people do. That's why I asked you the clarifying question that I did: "For those who have depression you mean, or for everyone? Because not everyone has depression."

The thing is that not everyone responds to medication, or even if they do respond the efficacy isn't great enough. The same however doesn't seem to apply to talk therapy, which is more work but tends to get the job done more effectively and persistently. — Question

Yes, I think antidepressants have relatively low efficacy for middling depression, compared to some other medications. Tranquilizers are quite effective in quelling acute anxiety; a little Xanax or Ativan can calm one down pretty quickly and if one isn't prone to addiction (most people are not) they're effective. The same can't be said for antidepressants. They can have substantial efficacy, but people differ greatly in their response, so finding the right one (or combination) can be difficult.

"Middling depression" isn't an acute or severe condition and may not have a biological cause in a given case. So whatever people take may not perform dramatically, like tranquilizers. Plus, antidepressants can have side effects which people don't like -- such as libido suppression.

For one kind of depression I use a motor for an analogy. It seems to me that there is a kind of emotional emergency-clutch in place for when what normally motivates us to act actually becomes too painful to function. We can disconnect from our emotions and do disconnect from our emotions in particular circumstances because our emotions can be overwhelming at a particular moment. Depression, in this case, is a malfunction of said emergency-clutch -- it's unable to re-engage the engine (our emotions) and is stuck in the disengaged position.

I'm uncertain when taking the analogy literally though. For one, I don't think that we're quite as mechanical as a literal interpretation of an engine-to-wheels metaphor suggests. It's just an approximation for attempting to understand the mechanism (or the lack of mechanism) and where it seems to be located in relation to the rest of the mind -- I'd say it's between the emotions and the body, and has something to do with transitioning to new environments or dealing with overwhelming environments. (edit: and the malady could be such that no such environment is needed to trigger such responses, or that no such environment is still around but the workings in-between are still acting as if there is)

what I don't realize is why ↪Agustino can't take it as a simple tip. — Noblosh

I don't know -- it just rubbed his fur the wrong way, I suppose. Certain things bug me disproportionately, too.

So, do we know what it is? We have to wait until we know what it is to call it what it is? And Question is calling it "this" or "that", which is, what? What it is? Or not? What? — Noble Dust

I wasn't planning on getting myself too involved in the semantics, as I don't think that it's as important as others seem to. We know what we're talking about, at least those of us who've been depressed before. I'll leave it up to the professionals, so like, however the DSM-IV defines it or something.

I may be mistaken, but I don't think anyone was arguing otherwise. Actually, that's a hallmark of this problem; there are those who have never experienced depression. Those people, in fact, don't know what the experience is like, and can therefore add no meaningful thoughts into the discussion. — Noble Dust

Yes, you are mistaken. I was responding to Question's comments in the opening post. See for yourself.

Thank you very much. Your complement is appreciated, and your appreciation is complemented! Truly glad you found it helpful. (Y)
Trying to come up with a list of things that helped me either pull out of the depression or stay out of it:

"Good" nutrition (whatever that may be for a particular individual at a given time): Omega-3 fats (instead of trans-fats, which happily are being used less), phyto-chemicals, the essential vitamins and minerals, not too many carbohydrates especially HF corn syrup, fresh fruits/veggies, organic foods whenever possible.

Herbs: straddles the border between food and medicine. This would take some research and experimentation to find what may help you. Like medicines, herbs have an optimal dosage and side effects. But there are many GRAS (generally recognized as safe) herbs that may have a positive effect. Lavender, kava kava, ginseng, valerian, tumeric, rosemary, pau d'arco, and garlic are just a few that i find helpful.

A solid sleep schedule: this one like nutrition is easier said than done, but it has a powerful effect on the mind and body. That effect can either be positive or negative, depending. As mentioned above, melatonin supplements help me though that may not be true for all. Melatonin helped make working at night possible because it helped me sleep during the day. But being mindful of the serotonin/melatonin yin/yang circadian rhythm is crucial. Getting enough sleep for your needs at a given time. Maybe it is 6 hours one day and 9 the next. And for serotonin boosting, getting exposure to bright light or sun upon waking. Exercise boosts serotonin. Coffee helps too, imho.

Vocalizing (for lack of a better word!): Letting the feelings out through sound, basically. Talking it out. Even talking to yourself helps and can be very cathartic, bringing some insight and relief. Probably better to do that where no one else can hear, unless they are understanding of the situation. Engaging in "primal scream" therapy while driving seems a little risky and might lead to road rage. But letting out feelings in the relative privacy of your car is not uncommon. Moaning and groaning in private can be expressive and therapeutic. A sustained moan can sound like Ommmm. Perhaps they are similar, but just different vibrations. I think the voice is our primal "instrument", but other musical devices can express our deepest feelings.

Blessing: bless everybody and everything, continuously under all circumstances. Better yet- bow to all.
This starts with and includes yourself! This doesn't mean one likes, approves of, understands, agrees with, or enjoys everything, of course. That is not possible. Blessing establishes one's kinship with all people, all beings, even all things and conditions. And it opens the heart chakra, allowing the primal energy to flow upward to our mind and spirit. Even a partially closed heart is a gridlock and a bottleneck of static energy.

Other helpful things: yoga (of which hatha yoga is but the tip of the iceberg); the Tao Te Ching, Gospels, or other books of wisdom; binaural sound therapy (two slightly different frequencies listened to in each ear through headphones); drawing, doodling and painting; using a low-voltage zapper (as developed by Hulda Clark and others); exercise, detoxing and sweating; meditation and deep breathing. Sure that there are many others.

Please everyone, let us know what helps you! Thanks very much for reading. (L)

If they don't believe they are in control and are at the mercy of external events, telling them to snap out of it probably will not work. — Bitter Crank

Okay, so then you agree the work is in changing their beliefs - namely that their beliefs are at fault for their condition. Would I be right in saying that?

People are sometimes taught passivity and inability, but fairly often we teach ourselves further lessons of inability. We structure our thinking about our 'situation' as a no-win negative situation, and then we get stuck. Maybe we don't like our job and we don't believe there are good and better jobs out there. We don't do well at the job, then people at work get angry at us, but we don't care, and down the spiral we go. We could change our ideas about work, jobs, and our place in them -- without giving up everything else we believe. — Bitter Crank

Exactly, so it's our beliefs that influence the outcomes to these situations we're discussing.

Maybe she wishes that her children would pay more attention to her at Christmas, Thanksgiving, her birthday, or Mothers Day. They habitually don't, but every year she expects that they will, and is freshly crushed each year when they don't -- once again -- perform as desired. She gets angry each time, and reaffirms her suspicion that her children don't care about her, and down the spiral she goes. She could revise her expectations and recognize that her children probably won't fulfill her expectations. — Bitter Crank

Yes, I agree with this as well. This is an important part, but, I believe it is secondary to having affirming and positive beliefs. Beliefs are the sword, having no expectations is the shield. What do I mean?

Beliefs push you to try to do whatsoever you wish to do - a feeling of certainty is probably the best way to get yourself to undertake an action (or a series of actions). But in case you fail, you'll become depressed if you don't balance this with having no expectations. Having no expectations is a meta-cognitive renunciation that occurs when you realise that God (or the world if you're an atheist) doesn't owe you anything to begin with.

There was a time when I had very strong beliefs, combined with very strong expectations, and I can say for certain that that leads to a lot of negativity, depression, anxiety, etc.

If we don't recognize the constraints we're under, positive thinking can lead us so far. We can better our condition with that type of thinking, sure, but that's not what depressed people crave for, they crave for purpose, not status and you fail to understand that and so your commentary is off the point. — Noblosh

Yes, but how can you not recognise the constraints you're under? Most people are very good at this part - too good. They always find the reasons why something can't be done.

And I do understand (some) of the depressed crave for purpose and meaning. But that purpose and meaning emerges once they come to terms with themselves. Once they understand their own self in a positive and affirming way. Once they have can-do beliefs - once they start valuing themselves, instead of putting themselves down. It all comes back to self-esteem.

I just came back from the gym / martial arts routine and let me tell you - the human body is such a phenomenal creation of God - you can always push it beyond its limits, it always obeys, even when it can't go on anymore. How much more capable our bodies are than we give them credit. Some people are depressed because they're fat, they're feeling fatigued, etc. all day long. But God didn't make them like that. God gave them absolutely all the tools they need. It's not their body that is at fault, but the spirit. The poor body has no option but to obey the spirit - and a sluggish, lazy spirit leads to a fat and unhealthy body.

Yes it is true that some, because of health reasons, simply can't use their bodies in the same ways as others. Each has a duty only to work with the resources they are given, and no more. The rest of us owe it to help those people, but even these people - their body can often do a lot more than they think it can.

So I was just reflecting. How enjoyable to feel the vigor and strength running through your body, to feel that you can rely on it, that it can take you wherever you ask it. Spinoza was right - we enjoy the power and strength of our body, and whatsoever increases it, brings us joy.

But yes - it wasn't for no reason that I told the depressed people in this thread to go for a run. They need to do that to snap out of the cycle where their self-esteem is going to the bottom. They need to push themselves, and see that they can achieve and do things that they thought were impossible. They need to go through those moments, where they can barely take another step, and yet push themselves, and see that it is possible to go another step, and another. That's a win for them afterwards. Add more and more wins each and every day, and soon their self-esteem will be back up!

This is a very clear characterisation that immediately suggests to me a way of understanding depression in terms of an active response to an intolerable and inescapable situation. One creates a dissociated identity as a refuge to preserve oneself from an overwhelming world. 'I' take refuge in the safety of an inner world that cannot be touched by the outer world, only to discover that I have become isolated and cannot in turn touch the world. And from there, one can see at once that there is no help for this dissociated self, either from itself or from the other in the outer world, and the only solution is for it to die.

Fortunately, this psychological death can be accomplished without physical death; indeed physical death does not do it at all. The inner self cannot by any means reach the outer world, but the inner self can end, and then one finds one is already in and part of the outer world. This is a terrifying prospect, to become, as one once was, completely vulnerable to the world, and this terror is what makes it seem impossible. — unenlightened

Yes, amen, and thank you. Same for the poem you posted afterwards. (Y)

This is Jacques Fresco. One of my personal heros. He just died about 10 days ago. At 101 years old. How did he make it to that age? Because he worked. And worked. And used his mind and body, and didn't let them go to waste. — Agustino

Hadn't heard that Jacques had passed. Sad to hear that. Though what more could one ask from him after 101 years? Rest in Peace/Vacation in Paradise!

Even a hardline Humean would not go so far; reason is the slave of passion, but the slave can still help the master. If one is unhappy that there is no sugar for the coffee, reason can usefully direct one to the grocer rather than the iron-monger for the remedy. The curiosity of depression is that it is in some way an anti-passion; it does not seem to motivate very well. — unenlightened

I would argue that depression is so hard to treat because we are in some sense the slave to our passions. How else would you explain the difficulty in treating depression?

How enjoyable to feel the vigor and strength running through your body, to feel that you can rely on it, that it can take you wherever you ask it. — Agustino

I used to bike, swim, and jog, do yoga and calisthenics. I was svelte and fit. Then injuries and age snowed white hair on me. When you start getting old, then one's body sometimes says "No!" when you ask it to take you somewhere. But even us old folks need to keep moving as much as we can.

Once they understand their own self in a positive and affirming way. — Agustino

Believing is seeing. If one believes that there is a positive self inside, then they can begin to actually see it and do something good.

Of course, sometimes seeing comes first. There are objectively bad situations (like bad work places, like bad relationships, like bad schools, like bad neighborhoods ) that one can and ought to leave, or not accept in the first place.

Hadn't heard that Jacques had passed. Sad to hear that. Though what more could one ask from him after 101 years? Rest in Peace/Vacation in Paradise! — 0 thru 9

Exactly.


Yes, agreed.

My personal opinion:

The difficulty with depression is the same difficulty as that which is found with losing weight, making money, finding the right woman, etc.

The principles that are required to solve each are simple. But most people don't put in the effort (both intellectual and physical) required to get through with them OR they're not willing to go through the physical and emotional pain necessary to solve them - why don't they? There can be multiple reasons, but all return to a lack of self-esteem and a fear of pain/suffering.

To develop self-esteem you must start by loving yourself, accepting yourself for who you are, and treating your body and mind with compassion, kindness and care. You have to develop an affirming vision of yourself, and find problems in the world that you can use your talents to solve (that gives you purpose).

To stop being afraid of pain/suffering it helps to have strong moral values that you don't deviate from, to be religious (just because the religious can view it as a duty to accept whatever God allots them), to have no expectations, and to stop thinking you deserve something different than what you have. In other words, stop being self-focused, and be world or other-focused.

Why do you think people read these words and don't act on them?

The principles that are required to solve each are simple. But most people don't put in the effort (both intellectual and physical) required to get through with them OR they're not willing to go through the physical and emotional pain necessary to solve them - why don't they? There can be multiple reasons, but all return to a lack of self-esteem and a fear of pain/suffering. — Agustino

That's silly. Many people struggle with depression and can't come out of that state due to other reasons than 'lack of effort' or 'lack of willpower'.

I tend to think depression as a subconscious defense mechanism against the world. It seems to me that depression entails a certain belief system about the world that one resides in. For example:

I am powerless.
I feel lousy.
I can't change the way I am.
Desires make me unhappy because I can't realize them.

These are all belief's about oneself and the world. Simply saying that none of them are true is just rubbish because one (a depressed individual) already supposes them valid on face value.

I would argue that depression is so hard to treat because we are in some sense the slave to our passions. How else would you explain the difficulty in treating depression? — Question

It's interesting that you put it like that. The 'we' that is a slave to passions is 'reason'. So it looks as though you are identifying as 'the reasoner' and against 'the passionate'. This is quite close to the dissociation I mentioned in reply to @0 thru 9. The reasoner is the disembodied inner thought, and the passionate is the connected body. The 'feeling' of depression, then, is almost a pseudo-feeling -or a feeling of numbness due to disconnection from passion.

The difficulty of treatment, I would suggest, is that this dissociation from feeling was in the first place a remedy for an intolerable situation. To recover would be to reconnect with those passions that were intolerable in the first place.

According to Hume's understanding, the passions - giving a damn - are what motivates one to do something, anything. Reason will work out the seventh digit of pi iff passion wants to know. These are not separate beings, reason and passion, but aspects of one being. I am a passionate and reasonable being, but passion is the engine, reason merely the gearbox.

I wonder if anyone will understand me if i say thatidentification is dissociation. Identifying as the gearbox, the reasoner, the inner world, is dissociating from passion, from pain, from giving a damn. The safety of numbness is the prison of depression. If this is correct, there is nothing substantial that needs to be or can be done; all that is required is a change of mind, a change of identification, and that can happen in the blink of an eye.

These are all belief's about oneself and the world. Simply saying that none of them are true is just rubbish because one (a depressed individual) already supposes them valid on face value. — Question

Okay I understand you. So can a depressed person provide reasons for considering those beliefs valid at face value? For example:

• Why is it that you feel powerless?
• Why is it that you feel lousy?
• Why is it that you think you can't change?
• Why is it that you think you can't fulfil desires?
• Why do you even need to fulfil all desires?

Is a depressed person willing to, scientifically, suspend judgement and question those beliefs through actions?

• Powerless: go run for whatever you think is a long time for you. Push yourself to do something that makes you feel uncomfortable and you feel you can't do. Feel all the uncomfortable feelings, the feeling of giving up, etc. but ignore them.
• Lousy: Eat right. Exercise. Do something you enjoy - a small thing, something easy to do. Help someone, and then ask them how they felt. Pause and ask yourself how you're feeling.
• Think you can't change: Find a way to change in something small. Can you exercise for 20 mins every day and stick to it? If you can, then there you go, you show your mind that it's possible.
• Can't fulfil desires: Think of a regular desire you have - the desire to eat ice-cream for example. Fulfil it, and pay attention, in the moment, to the joy you get out of fulfilling it.

Remember that mountains are climbed step by step - you don't hop from the bottom to the very top in one go. You can't question your beliefs purely in an intellectual way - you have to make your body FEEL that your beliefs are wrong. That level of feeling is different than merely considering matters abstractly in your head. That's why I've emphasised doing something - taking action!

Another was something my father used to often quote from Thoreau, that 'most people live lives of quiet desperation' (which I'm sure he often felt.) — Wayfarer

It is actually telling that you mentioned Thoreau. Well over a decade ago now when I was young, I picked up Thoreau in an effort to embrace the solitude that I was experiencing. I abandoned the material in a bid to strengthen the subjective hollowness that I had felt and I thought that after years of practice I had mastered this 'separation' and conquered the fear of aloneness. Indeed, I was quite comfortable being in completely quite environments where I was alone. That was until several years ago when I met a young man who - rather paradoxically - knew of Thoreau (which utterly surprised me at the time considering his persona as a 'bogan') and mentioned the very same quote, but his universe was split between this unknown desire for more and the identity he formed as part of his reality.

As such, his pathology also became divided and it was almost impossible to get him to understand that the reality he believed in so wholeheartedly that causally made him doubt himself was actually the illusion and thus as his confidence was so small because of this false innate perception of the world around him where social networking and the image he portrayed were all profoundly important to him, there was a part of him consistently screaming out as though the real 'him' was trying to articulate the anxiety he felt for having no voice. But this 'screaming out' was all wrong because of the power of the false representations he had of reality, whereby he was verbally abusive and consistently aggressive, he played games and lied, stepped on people who were weaker than him as he physically 'showed' a prowess by taking drugs for muscle growth, even though he would completely doubt himself enough to follow the opinions and suggestion made by others, just like a little child.

Most of the time when I meet such people, I immediately turn the other way because of the dangers -particularly the aggression - but his mention of Thoreau and a few other things made me, for some strange reason, believe that he had a chance of strengthening within and embracing his independence and autonomy. I mistakenly wanted to be his friend and show him some sisterly love. I have no idea why, but his consistent failures, just watching him play games with me (and himself) thinking I was too stupid to figure him out, it genuinely made me feel sad and hopeless not just for him but for humanity too. There was nothing I could do to enable him to feel empathy and that was when I learnt it is the key to autonomy.

This sadness he induced made me feel more lonely than I had ever felt before and I was forced into an existential crises due to him and a number of other external circumstances that made me realise I had never embraced my own autonomy or separateness either. The paradox is that while we attempt to find this autonomy, it is not by being alone and embracing the 'I' but rather appreciating that there is no 'I' but rather a 'we' and the autonomy is only how we perceive and understand the world around us, that therefore reason strengthens autonomy and to transcend the illusions of society. While I fought very hard to not allow the crises to overcome me, I soon realised that the disillusionment was merely a practical weakness and now I am solid because my understanding of the world is about my part to play in this world, which has pulled a focus on dedicating myself to justice, love and the betterment of society and myself and mind. That is only possible by feeling empathy or moral consciousness, being a friend to everyone in a world where no one is my friend.

This is a very radical position; one does not normally require that a doctor suffers from every complaint he treats, let alone a philosophical enquirer. But there is certainly some validity, to the extent at least that those who pontificate without either experience or listening will probably miss the mark. — unenlightened

True. Maybe I don't mean for it to be radical; the listening bit is certainly what I was getting at more so. I think with depression, a professional needs to practice open listening, which would be analogous to a medical doctor being thorough in their assessment of a physical malady. I do see too much "pontificating" about depression without first-hand experience. Maybe not so much in this thread.

This is a very clear characterisation that immediately suggests to me a way of understanding depression in terms of an active response to an intolerable and inescapable situation. One creates a dissociated identity as a refuge to preserve oneself from an overwhelming world. 'I' take refuge in the safety of an inner world that cannot be touched by the outer world, only to discover that I have become isolated and cannot in turn touch the world. And from there, one can see at once that there is no help for this dissociated self, either from itself or from the other in the outer world, and the only solution is for it to die.

Fortunately, this psychological death can be accomplished without physical death; indeed physical death does not do it at all. The inner self cannot by any means reach the outer world, but the inner self can end, and then one finds one is already in and part of the outer world. This is a terrifying prospect, to become, as one once was, completely vulnerable to the world, and this terror is what makes it seem impossible. — unenlightened

Thanks, and yes, this is all very accurate I think.