Artificial wombs
  • _db
    3.6k
    Pro-lifers and their ilk will contend that the right to life of a fetus requires that a women bring the creature to term. I have never heard any of them suggest alternatives to pregnancy. There is no discussion of artificial wombs. Even liberal women are freaked out by this. Fundamentally, the body of a woman is still widely perceived as a factory for producing the next generation.

    If the pro-life wingnuts really cared about the life of a fetus, then you'd think they'd be dumping all their money into R&D for artificial wombs. That way, the mother wouldn't have to get an abortion if she didn't want to go through the pregnancy. She could just dump the creature at the local womb facility and go on with her life. Win-win situation.

    It's things like this that make it clear that the anti-abortion crowd is motivated by something else besides care for the life of a fetus - namely, the desire to keep women oppressed. Possessing the only means of reproduction is an insanely heavy burden and crucial weakness in women, which is easily exploitable by men. The only future in which men and women are truly equal is one in which the means of reproduction are completely separated from the bodies of women.
    _db Options
  • Bartricks
    6k
    ↪_db
    Are you in favour of creating artificial wombs? And if one is available, would a pregnant woman who wanted an abortion instead be doing something immoral if she had the abortion?
    Bartricks Options
  • _db
    3.6k
    ↪Bartricks
    Yes to the first question, no to the second.
    _db Options
  • Bartricks
    6k
    ↪_db
    And if there was no artificial womb available she would not be doing something immoral?
    Bartricks Options
  • _db
    3.6k
    ↪Bartricks
    What, by having an abortion? No.
    _db Options
  • Bartricks
    6k
    ↪_db
    Why not? Presumably you think it would be immoral to abort if there was an artificial womb available because abortion kills an innocent person who does not deserve to die?
    Well, if there is no artificial womb available then surely it's entitled to the continued use of the natural one it is currently inhabiting?
    Bartricks Options
  • _db
    3.6k
    Presumably you think it would be immoral to abort if there was an artificial womb available because abortion kills an innocent person who does not deserve to die? — Bartricks

    Nope, dunno where you got that from.
    _db Options
  • Bartricks
    6k
    ↪_db
    Why do you think it would be wrong for a woman to abort if there was an artificial womb available then?
    Bartricks Options
  • _db
    3.6k
    Why do you think it would be wrong for a woman to abort if there was an artificial womb available then? — Bartricks

    Uhhh, I don't...? Are you trolling
    _db Options
  • _db
    3.6k
    ↪Bartricks
    Oh, I see you edited your post. I didn't see the second question.
    _db Options
  • Bartricks
    6k
    ↪_db
    I specifically asked you if it would be wrong for a woman to abort rather than transfer the baby to an artificial womb if one was available (see the content of my second response above). To which you responded 'yes'. Do you know what 'yes' means? Did you actually mean 'no'?
    Bartricks Options
  • Bartricks
    6k
    ↪_db
    ok, but why are you in favour of artificial wombs then?
    Bartricks Options
  • _db
    3.6k
    ↪Bartricks
    Re-read my original post.

    Possessing the only means of reproduction is an insanely heavy burden and crucial weakness in women, which is easily exploitable by men. The only future in which men and women are truly equal is one in which the means of reproduction are completely separated from the bodies of women. — _db

    But of course the pro-life chuds won't ever support artificial wombs, it would release women from their bondage as reproductive factories.
    _db Options
  • Bartricks
    6k
    ↪_db
    I don't see a lack of artificial wombs to be the problem. I see deciding to procreate to be the problem.

    Let's say a person freely decides to get themselves pregnant. And let's assume the fetus is a person. Well, isn't it wrong for that person to abort?

    If the decision to get pregnant was not free, then that's different. The woman does not owe the person the use of her womb or the inconveniences and pains of birth. And though it is still unjust that the baby dies, this is not an injustice the woman has any obligation to prevent.

    But if she freely got pregnant, why doesn't she owe it to the person she summoned into existence the continued use of her womb?
    Bartricks Options
  • _db
    3.6k
    But if she freely got pregnant, why doesn't she owe it to the person she summoned into existence the continued use of her womb? — Bartricks

    If she wanted to, she could go drop off the creature at the local artificial womb clinic. Or get an abortion, it's not a person so it doesn't matter if it gets terminated.

    And she didn't "summon" it into existence - a man was involved in some way as well.
    _db Options
  • Bartricks
    6k
    ↪_db
    If it's not a person then yes, it doesn't matter - but then why be in favour of artificial wombs? Should there be artificial mouths built for teeth we have removed?
    But if they are persons, then what seems to matter is not whether there's an artificial womb available, but how the person got to be inside the woman.
    Bartricks Options
  • _db
    3.6k
    Artificial wombs are just an extension of the process of de-mystifying procreation which has been in progress since science first started to uncover the actual reality of reproduction. The magical aura of motherhood is a cultural artifact that belongs to an age of ignorance and superstition.
    _db Options
  • _db
    3.6k
    but then why be in favour of artificial wombs? — Bartricks

    So that women don't have to get dangerous backstreet abortions in conservative shitholes like Texas.
    _db Options
  • Bartricks
    6k
    ↪_db
    Yes, but even a pro-lifer is opposed to those.

    So, if abortions are available, why would one build artificial wombs?
    Bartricks Options
  • NOS4A2
    9.3k
    ↪_db


    It’s it doesn’t follow that because one opposes the evisceration of a human fetus he ought to support the production of artificial wombs. It’s like saying that because one opposes the evisceration of an adult human he ought to support life support technology.
    NOS4A2 Options
  • _db
    3.6k
    So, if abortions are available, why would one build artificial wombs? — Bartricks

    That's the point though, safe abortions aren't available in conservative shitholes, pro-life cretins have made sure of that.

    ↪NOS4A2
    Simply banning abortions is not going to prevent all abortions. If you actually care about fetuses, then you should support the development of technology that will make it less likely that a women will choose to have one. But nobody in the pro-life movement supports this, because they don't actually care about fetuses - they care about keeping women controlled. They don't want women to be relieved of this crucial weakness. They want women to be vulnerable to becoming pregnant and make up a bunch of bullshit about the rights of fetuses to obscure it.
    _db Options
  • _db
    3.6k
    Right-wing women are the class traitors par excellence - willing to masochistically sacrifice their sisters at the altar of phallocracy, just to get the meager privileges and honors bestowed upon them by the patriarchs. Collaborationists and cowards to the core, right-wing women fiercely cling to their masters, and jealously despise any women who has the courage to live for herself.
    _db Options
  • baker
    5.6k
    a women — _db

    A womAn.
    baker Options
  • NOS4A2
    9.3k
    ↪_db


    Simply banning abortions is not going to prevent all abortions. If you actually care about fetuses, then you should support the development of technology that will make it less likely that a women will choose to have one. But nobody in the pro-life movement supports this, because they don't actually care about fetuses - they care about keeping women controlled. They don't want women to be relieved of this crucial weakness. They want women to be vulnerable to becoming pregnant and make up a bunch of bullshit about the rights of fetuses to obscure it.

    Every anti-abortion argument I’ve heard has to do with the termination of human life, so I’m not sure that’s accurate or a fair interpretation of what they care about or want.

    Who knows? Maybe they would support artificial wombs had they known about them. I see little to no evidence that they wouldn’t.
    NOS4A2 Options
  • baker
    5.6k
    Every anti-abortion argument I’ve heard has to do with the termination of human life, so I’m not sure that’s accurate or a fair interpretation of what they care about or want. — NOS4A2

    Yet many pro-lifers are in favor of capital punishment, so, clearly, the termination of human life is not all that repugnant to them. So it must be something else that leads them to oppose abortion.
    baker Options
  • NOS4A2
    9.3k
    ↪baker


    The phrase “pro-life” pertains only to the abortion debate, not to other matters. It’s the same same with “pro-choice”. If pro-choicere were to oppose populations from choosing to enact anti-abortion laws, it doesn’t mean they harbor hidden reasons for defending a woman’s right to choose to kill her baby.
    NOS4A2 Options
  • baker
    5.6k
    The phrase “pro-life” pertains only to the abortion debate, not to other matters. — NOS4A2

    And a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, so great minds are against abortion and in favor of capital punishment.
    baker Options
  • NOS4A2
    9.3k
    ↪baker


    The consistency here lies in wanting to deter the killing of human life. Punishment, capital or otherwise, is one such deterrent.
    NOS4A2 Options
  • Hanover
    12.9k
    It's things like this that make it clear that the anti-abortion crowd is motivated by something else besides care for the life of a fetus - namely, the desire to keep women oppressed. — _db

    I'm not sure what evidence you have that pro-lifers are opposed to artificial wombs. One reason such polling hasn't been done on that issue is because there's no such thing as artificial wombs. It's just a science fiction hypothetical you've created.

    I also don't know what evidence you have that women consider pregnancy oppressive. I think many find the whole process hugely rewarding.

    But sure, if you could incubate human embryos to birth with an artificial womb, the abortion debate would be moot.
    Hanover Options
  • Tate
    1.4k
    Right-wing women are the class traitors par excellence - willing to masochistically sacrifice their sisters at the altar of phallocracy, just to get the meager privileges and honors bestowed upon them by the patriarchs. Collaborationists and cowards to the core, right-wing women fiercely cling to their masters, and jealously despise any women who has the courage to live for herself. — _db

    I think you're just expressing your own frustration here. Pro-life women are just people like everyone else. They are our fellow citizens.
    Tate Options
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    Yep, on the right track, the OP is. — Master Yoda

    The idea is to deconstruct package deals which momma nature, for reasons I can't fathom, is very fond of - it's a good business model but becomes a royal pain in the arse!
    Agent Smith Options
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