E > I [ e.g., putting materialism ahead of people; caring more about stuff or money than about a person.]
S > E [giving a dogma, an opinion, or an ideology higher priority than a thing, a possession, a meal, etc.] — Marvin Katz
Isn't it the case that the first E > I, is itself a dogma or ideology? So the only way to see a person as higher than a material thing is to allow that dogma and ideology are also higher than material things. But this contradicts the second, S > E.
""...how can it also be wrong tp prioritize an ideology or dogma as higher than a material thing? — Metaphysician Undercover
That valid, coherent formula is:
I > E > S. — Marvin Katz
In other words, your proposal, that I ought to accept your system, I > E > S, is incoherent, or at best hypocritical, because your proposal is to put your system (S) as higher than my personal values (I).[/quote]
...Your formula, I > E > S, is itself an instance of S.
Agent Smith
4.8k
Most interesting! —
A formula, précisément, mon ami, préciséme[/quote
Thanks. ---Build on it. Let's cooperate here to build a superior ethics theory to that which is taaught in classrooms, i.e., the traditional approach. — Agent Smith
S > E [giving a dogma, an opinion, or an ideology higher priority than a thing, a possession, a meal, etc.] — Marvin Katz
Much of what you write is correct, but it fails to take into account logical type levels. — Marvin Katz
Question of ethical relevance at an ethics site: Why is this your will??
Is your character (moral nature) - ethikos- such that you go about rejecting what people say when they make a philosophical assertion in their attempt to contribute to a better comprehension? — Marvin Katz
So I ask: is this looking to poke holes in people's efforts, or to find fault, or to be negative and argumentative ...is that your idea of 'being ethical'? — Marvin Katz
Is that the conduct of one who has a good character? Why not just ignore what seems to you to be stupid remarks? I hold that that would be the more-ethical procedure.} I will explain that your personal choice to reject is on a higher type-level than the S-value you are rejecting. — Marvin Katz
BTW, that is not my formula. Professor R. S. Hartman, a logician and formal axiologist, worked it out. I am not the only one, though, who finds that formula to be useful in the field of Ethics: an entire institute is dedicated to honoring him and doing further research to extend his work. See the academic Journal of Formal and Applied Axiology. — Marvin Katz
Why not just ignore what seems to you to be stupid remarks? — Marvin Katz
So I ask: is this looking to poke holes in people's efforts, or to find fault, or to be negative and argumentative ...is that your idea of 'being ethical'? — Marvin Katz
Correct! Well said!! Yes, Dr. Hartman does use a system to "put down" (dis-value) a system. His formal Axiology does find that, of the three basic Value Dimensions, systems have the least positive value. It took a system to prove that fact. Ironic, isn't it. It looks like something has to be contradictory; but strictly speaking, there is no contradiction. His deductions also show that to rate an S-value above an E-value is a mistake: It results in getting the one who does that very, very little value ...fractional value close to zero.It is a philosophical outlook, I seek the truth. So, I don't simply accept as a matter of course, what someone else proposes. To begin with, I don't succumb to the illusion of "authority", because this is a known fallacy. — Metaphysician Undercover
.This is just subjective babble to me.
MCK: Granted. I had that coming.
— Metaphysician Undercover
Hartman's purpose is that he wanted to live in an ethical world, one where most people have high moral standards. He believed that education might be the route for bringing it about. He published dozens of papers in Kant Studien, a rigorously-edited-by-peers philosophical journal.I am generally not impressed by axiologists. They tend to produce axioms designed for a purpose — Metaphysician Undercover
I agree. And I've learned a lesson. I won't try to dialogue when overtired at a late-night hour. It won't happen again. What I scribbled was very unprofessional. Thank you for eldering me. Your critique is spot on.Cuthbert — Cuthbert
I think this approach to ethics presupposes a metaethical view. In particular, it assumes the value of life and perhaps the value of complexity as your last sentence indicates. However, in order for things such as racism, sexism, etc to be an ethical fallacy (i.e. ethical error), you must assume that there is a universal ethical correctness or standard to judge deviance as errant. What is this standard and where does it come from? Why does life have any moral worth or deserve moral consideration?...there are indeed ethical fallacies. (Fallacies are errors in thinking.) "These are
confusions that human beings often commit: fallacies such as racism, sexism, rankism, ageism, speciesism, male chauvinism. Another fallacy is to regard persons as mere things -- and thus it's okay to abuse them, or discard them -- or, even worse, treating them as numbers -- and thus
it's okay to erase them.
Persons are not just things or numbers. They are much more complex."
For many good reasons, Dr. Hartman arrived at the conclusion that the most-appropriate measure of human life is Aleph-sub-One, which is the power of the continuum. For one thing, when we attempt to describe a person, as we are getting better acquainted with the subject of our attention so as to describe with some accuracy, there is so much there to talk about, the deeper we explore the mind, body, and spirit (enthusiasms, inspirations, etc.) of our subject,, that we in theory would never finish the description; we, in fact, form a continuum with that which we are valuing when we properly value a human personality -- in the sense that you can't tell where the one the valuer leaves off and what s/he is valuing begins.What is this standard and where does it come from? Why does life have any moral worth or deserve moral consideration? — Paulm12
You get it.If we presuppose that hypocrisy (expressing beliefs, but not enacting them, implying underlying motives) is an ethical fallacy, "an eye for an eye" and "the ends justify the means" are ethical fallacies. — Tzeentch
You are on to something important here, Agent Smith.Ethics and reason may be connected at a deep level. — Agent Smith
E > I [ e.g., putting materialism ahead of people; caring more about stuff or money than about a person.]
S > E [giving a dogma, an unsubstantiated opinion, higher priority than a thing, a possession, a meal, etc.] — Marvin Katz
These two are .. inconsistent — Metaphysician Undercover
That is one reason why my writings emphasize the Intrinsic values: creativity, autonomy, and individuality. It turns out that they correlate with one another in all having a very-high degree of value in my theory ...some careful readers of the work tell me they noticed that fact.,...top priority in education is conformity. Every student must learn to do things in the very same way — Metaphysician Undercover
Those who have excellent values correlate highly with those who are very intelligent according to empirical studies. It is predictable that someone who has what people rate as usually possessing "a good character" will also be considered as "a reasonable" individual (most of the time.)" — Marvin Katz
The Philosophy Department at Stanford University publish an Encyclopedia of Philosophy. It might pay for readers here at the Forum to get acquainted with the standards they set for their articles and entries: Here is a sample: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-free/logic requires the use of symbols, language, and using language is essentially a communicative activity. Because of this, any system of logic will rely on communion rather than individuality, so it cannot assign priority to the individual — Metaphysician Undercover
The Philosophy Department at Stanford University publish an Encyclopedia of Philosophy. It might pay for readers here at the Forum to get acquainted with the standards they set for their articles and entries: Here is a sample: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-free/logic requires the use of symbols, language, and using language is essentially a communicative activity. Because of this, any system of logic will rely on communion rather than individuality, so it cannot assign priority to the individual — Metaphysician Undercover
They are not incompatible; though you will gain more value in life by complying with Mill's conclusions than with Kant's formulation of a procedure to follow in each instance. Mill in his writings said he believed there could be a science of ethics. He was strongly-influenced by Bentham who was very--inclined to be highly-systematic. In the masthead of of one of my books I do quote Kant where he is teaching that we need theory as well as mere experience. (Having one without the other, he implies, would be, so to speak, "flying blind.") Therefore, in my new approach to Ethics I do propose a logical framework and a systematic process.The project on ethics you've undertaken should be scaled down to something more manageable in my humble opinion. Rather than starting from scratch why don't you try and reconcile Kant (deontological ethics) & Bentham-Mill (utilitarianism)? Perhaps you already tried...and failed. They do seem incompatible. — Agent Smith
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