The reason for your choice is the existential void you experiences? No pain, no happiness, no pleasure. Is you self-chastiding religion-inspired? Are you on the edge of accepting the damned gods?

Letting Go of Hedonism


One cannot let go of something unless one has something better to hold on to.

One cannot let go of something unless one has something better to hold on to — baker

You have a point! We know for certain (?) that pleasure is better than pain. What could be more desirable than pleasure in your opinion? My mind draws a blank. Is it the same for you?

The reason for your choice is the existential void you experiences? No pain, no happiness, no pleasure. Is you self-chastiding religion-inspired? Are you on the edge of accepting the damned gods? — Hillary

Gods? No pain, no happiness! :chin:

So no more avoiding and reducing and mitigating ... pain / fear / suffering? You're getting yourself lobotomized? radically desensitized via torture? euthanized? Having your CNS-brain's 'reward center' inhibited / excised? (Asking for an epicurean-spinozist friend) how are you going to just "let go" of that old conatus, Smith? :chin:

So no more avoiding and reducing and mitigating ... pain / fear / suffering? You're getting yourself lobotomized? radically desensitized via torture? euthanized? Having your CNS-brain's 'reward center' inhibited / excised? (Asking for an epicurean-spinozist friend) how are you going to just "let go" of that old conatus, Smith? — 180 Proof

I was hoping you'd have the answer 180 Proof. There's got to be a way, oui? Does your contradiction-meter give a reading? Mine does not, but that maybe because it's :broken: I'm used to contradictions in that I wouldn't be wrong if I said I've been exposed to a lethal dose of antinomies! Logic bombs going off in that thing between your ears ain't exactly a fun experience. I digress...or do I?

Eureka!

Nothing is better than pleasure! Sayonara Epicurus. See you when you get there!

Sunyata! Nirvana!

Epicurean =/= libertine (or hyper-consumerist / acquisitive), y'know.

Epicurean =/= libertine (or hyper-consumerist/acquisitive), y'know. — 180 Proof

:ok: Good to know and muchas gracias.

You have a point! We know for certain (?) that pleasure is better than pain. What could be more desirable than pleasure in your opinion? My mind draws a blank. Is it the same for you? — Agent Smith

There are different pleasures. Some more sophisticated than others, some with more harmful side-effects or consequences than others.

Understanding this principle, one would be prudent to opt for the less harmful pleasures, or to deliberately look for them in the first place.

There are different pleasures. Some more sophisticated than others, some with more harmful side-effects or consequences than others.

Understanding this principle, one would be prudent to opt for the less harmful pleasures, or to deliberately look for them in the first place. — baker

Good call! Merci beaucoup. Anything else?

One can't let go of something one doesn't have.

We know for certain (?) that pleasure is better than pain. What could be more desirable than pleasure in your opinion? My mind draws a blank. Is it the same for you? — Agent Smith

These seem to be truisms. ‘Better’ is synonymous with ‘pleasure’ , which is synonymous with what we desire or prefer. What could be more desirable that what we desire? What could be better than that which we prefer?
What’s needed here is an explanation of the basis of preference in terms of the organizational dynamics of perception and cognitionn. For instance, we could connect that which is desirable in terms of the goal-directedness of anticipatory sense-making.

truisms — Joshs

So, they're true. Sorry if I'm a bit slow, nothing's obvious to me at all.

‘Better’ is synonymous with ‘pleasure’ , which is synonymous with what we desire or prefer. — Joshs

Indeed! So, we could say nothing is more pleasurable (better) than pleasure which then takes us back to square one. I wish I could say more. This is baffling I tell you. Are we on the same page or not?

A maze of ideas/words, I'm flummoxed!

One cannot let go of something unless one has something better to hold on to. — baker

Yes. See Behavior Analysis and the concept of replacement behaviors (fulfilling behaviors that are incompatible with the target behavior) - crucial for ridding oneself of unwanted habits.

For example, the desire to remember more of what one reads is incompatible with toking up day and night. And the intellectual accumulations are far more fulfilling than the hedonistic oblivion of THC.

Yes. See Behavior Analysis and the concept of replacement behaviors (fulfilling behaviors that are incompatible with the target behavior) - crucial for ridding oneself of unwanted habits. — ZzzoneiroCosm

Much appreciated! Psychology, one of my favorite subjects. Unfortunately, it seems I haven't put in the right effort (8- fold path). Woe is me! Can you refer me to a crash course website on psychology? Danke.

Pleasure and pain :: Carrot (Reward) and Stick (Punishment)

Tools of manipulation? :chin:

Who in his right mind would endorse hedonism?

Either you're manipulated or you're manipulating.

Both not exactly things one would want.

Tertium quid?

In the US, Kindle has a psychology textbook for free. It's long but it's an easy read. Covers the basics. There really isn't a crash course as it's a sprawling, ever-expanding field.

For behavior analysis - connected to Skinner's behaviorism; proven to be successful in the field with problem behaviors of all kinds, especially those rooted in autism - probably the wiki has most of the basic concepts.

In the US, Kindle has a psychology textbook for free. It's long but it's an easy read. Covers the basics. There really isn't a crash course as it's a sprawling, ever-expanding field.

For behavior analysis - connected to Skinner's behaviorism; proven to be successful in the field with problem behaviors of all kinds, especially those rooted in autism - probably the wiki has most of the basic concepts. — ZzzoneiroCosm

Great! I was hoping for a psychology for dummies kinda respectable tome :smile: . I guess I'll have to do it the hard way then.

I was hoping for a psychology for dummies kinda respectable tome — Agent Smith

https://www.amazon.com/Psychology-Dummies-Adam-Cash/dp/1118603591

I would guess for most people, two or three names or subfields of psychology resonate the most. Just have to locate your favored subfields/names.

I would guess for most people, one or two names or subfields of psychology resonate the most. Just have to locate your favored subfields/names. — ZzzoneiroCosm

:up:

truisms
— Joshs

So, they're true. Sorry if I'm a bit slow, nothing's obvious to me at all. — Agent Smith

They’re truisms because they come by their ‘truth’ by not saying anything new. Better, pleasure and desire mean the same thing and that is why it is ‘true’ to say that pleasure is better than pain. It is a truism just like ‘Better means better’ is a truism.

Who in his right mind would endorse hedonism?

Either you're manipulated or you're manipulating. — Agent Smith

Not as simple as you might think. Pleasure and pain are intricately bound up with sense-making oriented around personal goals and purposes. You cannot reliable produce rewards and punishments that motivate and shape the behavior of others without understanding their own interests , aims and ways of looking at the world. This insulates agains the idea of hedonism as effective behavioral control, because it only works in superficial and limited situations. Mind control is a Skinnerian myth.

Since folks are a bit spooked perhaps a clarification is needed.

One can't let go of something one doesn't have. — skyblack

We find nowadays a mass of people whose whole manner of life shows they no longer have five honest senses, let alone any precision. When the senses are used to falsification, and perception is distorted, one doubts any truthfulness in their pursuit of this so called hedonism.

Some of my faves:

Existential: Rollo May (Man's Search for Himself, The Meaning of Anxiety); Karen Horney (Neurosis and Human Growth).

Humanistic: Erich Fromm (The Sane Society, Escape From Freedom, The Art of Loving); Abraham Maslow (The Farther Reaches of Human Nature) (Maslow also founded transpersonal psychology - the most spiritually-minded branch - and integrated Buddhist notions: Religions, Values and Peak Experiences).

Positive Psychology (aiming at making healthy minds healthier): Seligman, Flourish.

Viennese Schools: Obviously Freud and Jung but Adler's valuable contribution is sometimes forgotten: Social Interest: A Challenge to Mankind.

Mind control is a Skinnerian myth. — Joshs

Not as simple as you might think. — Joshs

They’re truisms because they come by their ‘truth’ by not saying anything new. Better, pleasure and desire mean the same thing and that is why it is ‘true’ to say that pleasure is better than pain. It is a truism just like ‘Better means better’ is a truism. — Joshs

I beg to differ; there are some like me who don't, well, get it in a manner of speaking. The word "obvious" doesn't make sense to me at all. Daniel Dennett has more to say on the matter.

Ok but I don't wanna go into too much detail. I easily miss the wood for the trees. Thanks though.

:cool:

Funny in its oddness but true: Epicurus’ hedonism was pretty much about aiming to be an ascetic to obtain the greatest state of pleasure that could be obtained. From the last paragraph of this section at IEP:

An example of a natural but non-necessary desire is the desire for luxury food. Although food is needed for survival, one does not need a particular type of food to survive. Thus, despite his hedonism, Epicurus advocates a surprisingly ascetic way of life. — https://iep.utm.edu/epicur/#SH5a

Emphasis mine. No indulgences in grandiose feasts or Roman orgies, or the like. Go figure.

And, from The University of Chicago Press, the more traditional rendition of Epicurus’ thoughts on the issue of sex (although, in fairness, the article argues that it is improperly translated): “They say that sex is never beneficial, and you are very lucky (or, “it is surprising”, or “it is marvelous”) if it does not do harm as well.”

From which you get this:

[...] when asked "why it was that pupils from all the other schools went over to Epicurus, but converts were never made from the Epicureans?" [the Academic Skeptic, Arcesilaus] responded: "Because men may become eunuchs, but a eunuch never becomes a man." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicureanism#Criticism

… and this, I think, only gets the ball rolling.

At any rate, history has a weird way of sometimes distorting people’s views.

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But to remain on topic, as to the issue of letting go of hedonism:

Pleasure is obtained from that which pleases one. It is, tmk, impossible to do without. If it pleases one to do away with being pleased, there is yet the pleasure that awaits when this goal is reached, as well as the pleasure held in the active pursuit of this goal … if only one could figure out how to obtain it. But I don't see how one can.

Funny in its oddness but true: Epicurus’ hedonism was pretty much about aiming to be an ascetic to obtain the greatest state of pleasure that could be obtained. — javra

Not really odd when you think about it. Many people think that true pleasure and happiness comes from moderation (rather than indulgence) and cutting out that which is unnecessary - hence the appeal of minimalism in this vulgar consumerist era.