If by "saner points" you mean parroting the mandatory pro-NATO line, then this should be stated in the OP. Anyway, I've got better things to do, so don't let me interrupt your "discussion" .... — Apollodorus
your saner points — Baden
their NWO agenda — Apollodorus
Who do you think the establishment is? It's just guys like me. Their desks are bigger, but their jobs aren't. They don't conspire, they buy boats. — Quentin (Cube (1997))
This may be hard for you to understand, but there is no conspiracy. Nobody is in charge. It, it's a headless blunder operating under the illusion of a master plan. Can you grasp that? — Worth (Cube (1997))
I'm not saying they make that explicit in their documents. It's my wording. As I see it, NATO represents an expanded pre-cold-war block and Russia a diminished pre-cold-war block of countries that were on friendly terms for about five minutes before reverting to pursuing separate and often conflicting interests. Putin has been more open about talking about this than the Western side who are a little more coy. I could probably dig up some quotes from him. — Baden
Just going by the destruction in various cities seems difficult to reproduce elsewhere. — Benkei
A ruin can be rebuilt, that is very easy, but a fascist regime cannot improve. It cannot be reformed into a less fascist one. Russia is now a fascist militarist petrostate, and will remain so for quite a while. This can't be good for them Russian, although of course it's good for the leaders.
If Ukraine manages to remain a democracy, it will rebound. Of course this reamains to be seen. — Olivier5
It’s a well-known fact that NATO was created by America “to keep Russia out of Europe and the Germans down” as admitted by NATO's own website:
Lord Hastings Lionel Ismay was NATO’s first Secretary General, a position he was initially reluctant to accept. By the end of his tenure however, Ismay had become the biggest advocate of the organisation he had famously said earlier on in his political career, was created to “keep the Soviet Union out, the Americans in, and the Germans down.”
Lord Ismay - NATO — Apollodorus
And there he stayed for 42 years, cultivating a group of disciples who called themselves members of “St. Andrew’s Prep.” By the 2000s, Marshall, then in his 80s, had earned the affectionate nickname Yoda. — The Return of the Pentagon’s Yoda, Foreign Policy
Nickname: Flies on the Eyeballs Guy
Real name: Cofer Black
position: Director of the CIA Counterterrorist Center — List of nicknames used by George W. Bush, wikipedia
To add to that, I don't see this as a "winnable" war. — Baden
Incidentally, Ferguson is a respected historian, though I'm sure the NATO jihadis on here would like to label him "Putin troll" .... — Apollodorus
I'm following the French news. There's nothing particularly original there that I can see. Of course they are not gung-ho like the Daily Beast or the WSJ, or the Sun. They try to be thoughtful and informative, as they should. There's a certain sobriety in French and more generally European media as compared to the US/UK.
The French government has kept its donations to Ukraine secret, probably because they didn't give much. The French state is pretty much broke.
The one and only French aircraft carrier +other ships are operating in the Black Sea, ostensibly to help protect Romania, Poland, etc. in case the conflict escalates.
All four French strategic nuclear strike submarines are out at sea (it's usually only one out at a time).
Most French analysts are satisfied that the Germans, at long last, are seriously investing in defence and trying to be less dependent on Russian gas. That's a good evolution, the way we see it, moving away from boy scout naivety.
On NATO, the French tend to act as the one disagreeing with the US. Other members would typically be shy to oppose the US in NATO, so the way it works is the French put out their objections informally on behalf of the other Europeans. It's all a bit fake. I don't know what the French position is re. Ukraine in NATO, but it would not surprise if they had been slow and uncommitted to it. — Olivier5
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1505396482274304000.html
The importance of taking China into account of any analysis of what is going on is made startlingly clear. — StreetlightX
The US, on the other hand only cares about Russia because they interfered in American elections, and they're sketchy to deal with on Middle Eastern security issues. — frank
And the following calculus doesn't really make sense: Putin's an evil madman + Putin has half the world's nuclear weapons = No need to care about Russia. — Baden
I don't think the US govt sees Putin as an evil madman. I think they see him as the dictator of a regional power. — frank
I was asking specifically about NATO's antagonism of Russia, the basis of it and the form it has taken. — frank
However, focusing on this historical minutia would be missing the forest for the trees. Mussolini, Franco, Hitler ... fascism was simply a popular movement and that's what brought about WWII, in conjunction with post-WWI policies that brought about the great depression. — boethius
What I think is at play for your reticence here is you're worried that in fact Boethius might be right all along, that cheerleading the continuation of the war and sending armaments (to "bleed the Russians" as Niall Ferguson quoted a US official), could be an immoral position. — Benkei
"Moscow still looked at Eastern Europe, which was now relabeled as Central Europe, as a security buffer between Russia and the West. — Baden
Russia’s efforts to maintain the status quo failed — Baden
In 2002, the George W. Bush administration decided to unilaterally withdraw from the ABM Treaty and started to deploy ballistic-missile defense systems, despite Russian protests. In — Baden
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