• tryhard
    7
    It seems that the problem of evil is the most powerful argument against the theist argument. To provide context to the dialectic, the problem of evil argument at its simplest looks something like this:

    1.If God exists, he would remove evil from the world
    2.Evil has not been removed from the world
    3.Therefore, God cannot exist [1,2]

    The support for the first premise is the assumption that God is a perfect being by definition. God has the ability to remove evil, and the attribute of benevolence attached to his nature seems to compel God to remove evil. Otherwise, he is complacent in allowing his creations to suffer and responsible for creating a world in which suffering is inevitable.

    Assuming that we grant the theist position that God does exist, how can we reconcile the fact that evil exists in the same reality as a perfect God?

    It seems that the only hope of combatting this objection is for the theists to justify evil's existence. Evil exists because a world without evil would somehow be worse than the world we currently inhabit. Evil exists because it’s necessary for soul building, saint creating, or the possibility of free will.

    However, my objection is this:
    1.If God exists, he would have created the best possible world.
    2.There are cases where evil does not lead to the fruition of some greater good (ex: holocaust, starving children, etc.)
    3.God could have created a world without these types evil
    4.Therefore, God did not create the best possible world [2,3]
    5. Therefore, God does not exist. [1,4]

    My objection rests heavily on the inconsistency of there existing a perfect being in the same reality as an imperfect world. Can anyone provide an argument that provides justification for the existence of evil while taking into account the unnecessary evils, or gratuitous evils, that we seem to observe throughout our life experiences?
  • Bartricks
    6k
    By a 'perfect being' do you mean a person who is omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent?

    If so, could that being exist without having created anything? For instance, is the following scenario coherent: God exists and billions of other minds exist that God did not create?

    If not, why not?
  • EugeneW
    1.7k


    If God is omnipotent he can do anything. That includes creating minds that are not created. He can be self contradictory and do contradictory things.
  • EugeneW
    1.7k
    1.If God exists, he would remove evil from the worldtryhard

    This is an unwarranted premise. Which makes 2. a triviality and 3. a false conclusion.
  • 180 Proof
    15.4k
    The PoE is only a problem for an omnibenevolent deity. It does not necesarily follow that a theistic deity is omnibenevolent (e.g. "the God of Abraham" according to the Tanakh, New Testament Bible & Quran). Of course, a deity that is not omnibenevolent is akin to a negligent sadist, or devil, and therefore not worthy of worship. (Btw, I'm a nonbeliever, not a Gnostic.)

    Magical thinking on top of magical thinking. Good job! :sparkle:
  • Bartricks
    6k
    Why are you saying things?
  • EugeneW
    1.7k


    Because God made me have a mouth.
  • EugeneW
    1.7k
    1.If God exists, he would have created the best possible world.tryhard

    Again, an unwarranted assumption. Which makes the argument invalid.

    And suddenly I understand the atheist. It's the OOOO character that makes him repulsive.
  • EugeneW
    1.7k
    no he didn'tBartricks

    Indirectly.
  • Bartricks
    6k
    no.
    Not following this are you?
  • EugeneW
    1.7k


    They created the universe. So indirectly me. We all evolve(d) in the universe.
  • DingoJones
    2.8k
    Of course, a deity that is not omnibenevolent is akin to negligent sadist, or devil, and therefore not worthy of worship.180 Proof

    I don’t see that…sadist? Because god is letting some bad things happen? So if you are omnipotent then you are either omnibenevolent or a sadist/devil?
  • Bartricks
    6k
    no they didn't.
    Like I say, you are not really following this.
    Let me explain. God not create anything. See? God exist. God not create anything. God exist. Other things exist. God not create the other things. See? Once again: God exists. Other things exist. God did not create the other things.
    Take you. God would not create a person like you. Yet you exist. And God exists. And that's consistent.
  • EugeneW
    1.7k
    Of course, a deity that is not omnibenevolent is akin to negligent sadist, or devil,180 Proof

    Are you omnibenevolent? If not, are you a sadist?
  • EugeneW
    1.7k


    That's all personal opinion, while I know they created the world.
  • Bartricks
    6k
    No, because you are in the world and no one who knew what they were doing would create you.
    So, God exists and you exist and God didn't create you.
  • EugeneW
    1.7k
    Take you. God would not create a person like you.Bartricks

    Why not? Tell me your thoughts... I'll listen. Don't worry.
  • EugeneW
    1.7k
    So, God exists and you exist and God didn't create you.Bartricks

    They only created the universe. Not the people in it.
  • 180 Proof
    15.4k
    So if you are omnipotent then you are either omnibenevolent or a sadist/devil?DingoJones
    If its creation is ravaged by suffering and its creatures have been made capable of freely making each other and themselves suffer gratuitously, then how could a 'non-omnibenevolent omnipotentate' not be "a sadist/devil" (i.e. malignantly omni-negligent)? :eyes:

    Are you omnibenevolent? If not, are you a sadist?EugeneW
    Even on my best days, lil D-Ker, I'm not omnipotent, so the question is (charitably) missplaced. :roll:
  • EugeneW
    1.7k
    Let me explain. God not create anything. See? God exist. God not create anything. God exist. Other things exist. God not create the other things. See? Once again: God exists. Other things exist. God did not create the other thingsBartricks

    You must go see a doctor... You clearly show the signs...
  • Bartricks
    6k
    If you order toast in a restaurant and you receive a cold, urine soaked piece of mouldy bread, is it reasonable to conclude that the chef is the best chef in the world? No.
  • Bartricks
    6k
    If you say so. That's how philosophy works. We just sit around and wait for Eugene to squawk truths at us.
    Argue something.
  • DingoJones
    2.8k


    Well wouldnt God be evil if he denied free will to human beings as well?
    Do we just chalk this up to the inherently nonsensical nature of omni-god or is there space for a more fair assessment than god being evil or evil?
  • EugeneW
    1.7k


    I think having an argument with you isn't good for my healh. I only can say, if the universe coexists eternally with the gods and they haven't created the universe, then the universe would be devoid of life.

    As you might conclude one day for yourself, when the gap is closed, we can receive gods.
  • EugeneW
    1.7k
    If you order toast in a restaurant and you receive a cold, urine soaked piece of mouldy bread, is it reasonable to conclude that the chef is the best chef in the world? No.Bartricks

    I'm convinced. Go ASAP! Call him or her now you still show some signs of sanity.
  • EugeneW
    1.7k
    Even on my best days, lil D-Ker, I'm not omnipotent, so the question is (charitably) missplaced180 Proof

    I just don't understand why not being omnibenevolent means being a sadist, 180booze. :chin:
  • EugeneW
    1.7k
    Even on my best days, lil D-Ker,180 Proof

    WTF is lil D-ker?!?
  • Bartricks
    6k
    I only can say, if the universe coexists eternally with the gods and they haven't created the universe, then the universe would be devoid of life.EugeneW

    Again, just another squawk and not an argument. You seem incapable of arguing for anything. Why the hell would any of that follow?

    You exist. God exists. And God would not create someone like you. if you think God created you, then you're even more misguided than the person who thinks the cold urine soaked piece of bread they've been served is toast by the finest chef in the world. Conclusion: God did not create you.

    Now, stop blurting things and try and engage with the argument. So, that means not just blankly stating your rote learned beliefs, but showing how something you believe follows from premises that have some independent plausibility.

    Or, alternatively, you could just try and follow my reasoning and learn something. God exists. Stupid, ignorant immoral people exist. A dangerous world exists. God would not create stupid, ignorant immoral people and create a dangerous world and plonk the stupid ignorant immoral people in it, would he? If you think he would, provide an argument.

    So, God exists and stupid, ignorant immoral people exist and a dangerous world exists and God did not create the latter. See? Can't you see how that follows? And if you think that's a problem - that God somehow 'must' have created all other things - have the decency to provide an argument to that conclusion. This is a philosophy forum - do some.
  • EugeneW
    1.7k


    Goddamnit Bartricks! Are you comparing me with a urine soaked piece of bread? What kind of argument is that? The chef might not have created that piece, but he might have created that urine.
  • EugeneW
    1.7k
    So, God exists and stupid, ignorant immoral people exist and a dangerous world exists and God did not create the latter. See? Can't you see how that follows? And if you think that's a problem - that God somehow 'must' have created all other things - have the decency to provide an argument to that conclusion. This is a philosophy forum - do some.Bartricks

    Read my word, dear Tricks. If the gaps are closed there is nothing other to conclude the universe is created. I closed the gaps. My conclusion: Gods exists and the created the universe.
bold
italic
underline
strike
code
quote
ulist
image
url
mention
reveal
youtube
tweet
Add a Comment

Welcome to The Philosophy Forum!

Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.

×
We use cookies and similar methods to recognize visitors and remember their preferences.