Or the other side does it. Or maybe they even already did it.
I actually don't know whether to prepare for planting season or not.

Could Ukraine be his Afghanistan? :grimace: — frank

No, those are orthodox and blonde! :eyes:

Your second point seems to contradict your first point. And I have not engaged in any act of tribalism, thank you so much.

how significant is 'significant' — Isaac

You tell me... :-) Once you're done, I have other questions for ya: how heavy is 'heavy'? How beautiful is 'beautiful'?

If there's a neo-nazi problem in Ukraine — Isaac

Is there? I don't think there is. I think there are neo-nazis in many countries.

I think in Ukraine there is a "Your neighbor wants to de-nazify you" problem.

I think that problem is far more severe than anything else, which ought to be the topic...

But of course we can talk about Ukraine and for example Climate Change. Or Ukraine and Covid. Or wokeness in Ukraine... Or neonazis...

What??? Ukrainians aren't all perfectly woke? Well then, Putin is fighting the right fight!

I call it: Trollin for Putin.

Joking aside, I fear that Putin, cornered and desperate, will turn to the tried and true solution - perhaps the only one that he has left: terror, the likes of which we haven't seen since Stalin. — SophistiCat

Do you know how genocidal the war in Checnya was? The Second Chechen War was Putin's war. First among many.

You can look up the widely varying casualty estimates, but they have to be understood in the light that there are only 2 million Chechens. The Second War, Putin's Presidential election campaign basically, shows directly what kind of war Putin is capable of. And how a war can deteriorate into slaughter and brutality. At first (at the First Chechen war) the Chechens applied similar things that Ukrainians are doing now in Kherson etc, go openly to talk to or demonstrate at the soldiers and present their outrage. Chechen Women stopped some armored columns by creating human walls on the road. Yet once the casualties grew, such actions disappeared.





The longer the war goes, the more the hatred increases and the truly ugly side of war is shown. Now it's been just a week and a few days, so it's just the start of this.

:up:

Could Ukraine be his Afghanistan? :grimace:
— frank

No, those are orthodox and blonde! :eyes: — javi2541997

I don't think that is relevant, is it?

Sorry, I was joking but I committed a mistake.

Is there? I don't think there is. I think there are neo-nazis in many countries. — ssu

So there are Neo-Nazis in many countries but not in Ukraine? Or there are Neo-Nazis in Ukraine but it's fine, we're happy to have a few Neo-Nazis here and there, life's rich pageant and all?

Which is it?

think in Ukraine there is a "Your neighbor wants to de-nazify you" problem.

I think that problem is far more severe than anything else — ssu

Right. And? What has the severity of the problem got to do with anything? We're talking about diplomatic solutions to try and stop the war, it's not a competition.

The point is that Putin has used the Neo-Nazi issue as a pretext for war. Constantly saying there's no Neo-Nazi problem just plays into that rhetoric, it makes it sound like a cover-up, like there's just two equal sides playing the same propaganda game.

But of course we can talk about Ukraine and for example Climate Change. Or Ukraine and Covid. Or wokeness in Ukraine. — ssu

All of which would be pointless because the person with whom we have to negotiate if we're to have a hope in hell of avoiding more bloodshed hasn't mentioned any of those issues. Seriously, this isn't LARPing, this is grown up international relations. If the best you can come up with is to keep whining "...but...but...he lied"... well welcome to the fucking adult political world. They all lie, all the fucking time. So.

The question, the only question is what the diplomatic response should be.

...

A little news from the border of the country where far-right nationalism is apparently not a significant problem.

It’s very emotional for me because I see European people with blue eyes and blonde hair being killed — Ukraine’s Deputy Chief Prosecutor, David Sakvarelidze

Osarumen, a father-of-three, said he, his family members and other refugees were told to disembark a bus about to cross the border on Saturday and told, “No Blacks”.

Twenty-four Jamaican students who yesterday arrived in Lviv from Kharkiv by train are now being forced to walk 20km to Poland. The country’s foreign affairs minister, Kamina Smith, said they were blocked from boarding the bus that was carrying the students to Poland.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-refugees-racism-russia-invasion-b2024175.html

So I guess Rosa Parks was just blowing it all out of proposition, yes?

So there are Neo-Nazis in many countries but not in Ukraine? — Isaac

Read properly. Neo-nazi problem.

There's more likely a problem with the foreigners running around with de-nazification on mind.

Right. And? What has the severity of the problem got to do with anything? — Isaac

So there's a war going on in Ukraine.

Isaac: And? What has the severity of the problem got to do with anything?

Just remembering the first comment you made on this thread, just 18 days ago:

What! Governments exaggerating a threat so that powerful industries can benefit. Sounds like some kind of crazy conspiracy theory to me.

Best just trust what the official experts have to say on the matter...

https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/russia-ukraine-news-latest-today-nato-us-reject-putin-claims-withdrawl/

...so that's settled then. The experts say Russia is preparing for war and I'm sure the billions that the pharmaceuticalarms industry will make is just a coincidence.

Of course, you might find some experts disagreeing, but with none of you being military strategists, you wouldn't want to be 'doing your own research', would you?

Besides, have you not read the news? Those nasty truckers are funded by the Russians, best be on the safe side, lest they fund any more peaceful protestsdomestic terrorists. — Isaac

Shell has defended its decision to purchase Russian crude oil despite the invasion and bombardment of Ukraine.

The oil giant said in a statement that the decision to purchase the fuel at a discounted price was "difficult".

It confirmed that it had bought a cargo of Russian crude oil on Friday but it had "no alternative". — BBC

Read properly. Neo-nazi problem. — ssu

Yep. So is it not a problem that there's Neo-Nazis in Ukraine, or is there no problem because there's no Neo-Nazis? It's not clear which is your claim.

Are you claiming that denying African people a place on the bus is 'not a problem'?

So there's a war going on in Ukraine.

Isaac: And? What has the severity of the problem got to do with anything? — ssu

Yes. You're dodging the issue. How do we stop wars? Is it by measuring how severe they are and hand-wringing about how bad it all is? Or is it by successful peace negotiations?

Just remembering the first comment you made on this thread, just 18 days ago: — ssu

Not sure the point you're trying to make here?

The oil giant said in a statement that the decision to purchase the fuel at a discounted price was "difficult". — BBC

Poor Shell. I hate to think of how 'difficult' a time those poor board members must have had.

What is the world coming to? One minute thousands of innocent people dying painful deaths, the next, corpulent profiteers having to make 'difficult' decisions. Isn't one tragedy enough!

Indeed, we maybe forced to consider the possibility that the invasion of Ukraine was likewise a difficult choice and there was "no alternative".

How do we stop wars? Is it by measuring how severe they are and hand-wringing about how bad it all is? Or is it by successful peace negotiations? — Isaac

Peace negotiations happen either when a) one side has had enough and is facing at least the possibility of unconditional surrender / total defeat or when b) both sides have had enough of it.

This isn't a border clash or some remote island, when the other side is trying to take the capital of one side. So I'm not seeing either a) or b) happening yet.

Yep. So is it not a problem that there's Neo-Nazis in Ukraine, or is there no problem because there's no Neo-Nazis? It's not clear which is your claim. — Isaac

Who cares at this moment? There are neo-nazis everywhere, especially in nations that have free speech, there will always exist a number of outliers and yes, all of these bad groups should be dealt with. But nothing of this has anything to do with the war. The neo-nazi liberation narrative is Putin propaganda, nothing else. To even consider that perspective as valid is falling for that propaganda as valid reasoning when discussing the war. People should be more rational than doing so. Putin lies all the time but people seem to use that as valid perspectives or counterpoints. :shade:

How do we stop wars? — Isaac

Not by debating whether the west is to blame through ill-conceived arguments about Nato, that's for sure. Stopping a war requires action on the part of people in power. As far as I can see I think the west is actually doing good in this regard. Sanctions are hard, help gets to Ukraine, pressure on Putin is everywhere. We see hints in Russia of support for the war dropping.

How else do you stop a war without starting a bigger one? There are only two options really. Either fight or help without fighting.

:100:

I'm sure Putin's got to be thinking about how the USSR's demise was related to its protracted war in Afghanistan.

Could Ukraine be his Afghanistan? — frank

It looks that right now, there are just two possible scenarios:
1)Putin swiftly changes the narrative, declares Martial Law, and transforms his regime into a Stalinist dictatorship.
2) The conflict will keep its primary military, ideological, and organizational parameters for a few more weeks. In this case, there will be more and more protests in Russia itself,
Russian resources will be depleted, and Putin will be defeated.

So is it not a problem that there's Neo-Nazis in Ukraine, or is there no problem because there's no Neo-Nazis? — Isaac

We had to destroy the village in order to save it.

Russian resources will be depleted, and Putin will be defeated. — Number2018

Hmmm... that might take a bit of time. Just to give an example: let's think of the T-72 tank. It's 50 years old. About 18 000 tanks were produced in all. About 2 000 are in use. So how much are in reserve?

Over 7,000 T-72s are in storage, but the Russians believe they can be upgraded to the T-72B3 variant package with little difficulty. This means that the modern T-72B3 variant will be a workhorse in the coming years.

And then there are the T-80, T-90 and the tiny batch of Armata tanks about in all 5 000 added to the T-72. For comparison, the US has 2,000 Abrams tanks in use and 3,000 in reserve. Now the tank production has been low, that is true. But then again, Russia is in a new situation: it's engaged in a large conventional war. It just might simply start to produce tanks by putting people into "military" service and change the production into war-time economy. Decreases a lot of your costs when you can pay a cleaners salary to your mechanics and engineers. The production won't be on the level of WW2, but I think they can in few years replenish what they are losing now.

Peace negotiations happen either when a) one side has had enough and is facing at least the possibility of unconditional surrender / total defeat or when b) both sides have had enough of it. — ssu

1993 Cambodia, 1996 Guatemala, 1998 Northern Ireland, 1999 Columbia...

Peace talks work. They work better when adolescent-level idealists aren't bleating about the fact that one of the parties lied.



Forget it. It's like talking to children. Can you seriously not get your heads round the idea of diplomatically taking account of the stated grievances of one party without agreeing with them?

Can you seriously not tell the difference between working out what we could do (or could have done) to fix this and deciding who's to blame?

Maybe so. I'm clueless right now as to what will happen next.

Another one of Chapatte's great graphic work, on the same theme:

Forget it. It's like talking to children. Can you seriously not get your heads round the idea of diplomatically taking account of the stated grievances of one party without agreeing with them?

Can you seriously not tell the difference between working out what we could do (or could have done) to fix this and deciding who's to blame? — Isaac

How did that in any shape or form relate to what I wrote? Putin pushes a propaganda narrative to justify his actions, there's no reality to that narrative. Why can't people understand this?

1993 Cambodia, 1996 Guatemala, 1998 Northern Ireland, 1999 Columbia...

Peace talks work. They work better when adolescent-level idealists aren't bleating about the fact that one of the parties lied. — Isaac

And which of the conflicts would reject my hypothesis?

With Cambodia you mean 1991? The Cambodian-Vietnamese War went on for 10 years. Decisive victory for Vietnam and collapse of the Khmer rouge and it's Democratic Kampuchea. An obvious example of a).

Guatemalan Civil War went on for 36 years. You somehow object it to be the case of b)?

1998 Northern Ireland: The Troubles went on from the late 1960's to 1998. That's also 30 years. I think it was also a case of b).

1999 Columbia is surely different. No peace agreement was achieved! Yes, FARC has signed a peace accord in 2016 and laid down their arms in 2017, but then in 2019 still a few continue the struggle against the evil capitalists...

Peace talks have their role as I said: in of either case a) or b).

On Friday the wholesale price of domestic energy was nine times what it was a year ago. But the cost of production of energy hasn’t changed. The entire excess is due to profit taking that exploits shortages.

Are we really just going to stand by and watch this exploitation happen?

We only import 4% of our gas from Russia. A third comes from Norway. Nearly half is from our own North Sea supply.

Why then are we being stuck with obscene price rises?

Yes, the message about neo-Nazis is not a reference to antisemitism. Putin's version of national identity is more along the lines of the Falangists in Spain than a celebration of Stalin's atheistic republic. Putin has much support within the Russian Orthodox Church. It is more of a civil war in the fashion of Franco than a model of an imperium.

In that sense, maybe it is more like the American Civil War than the conflicts which have consumed that area of the globe for time out of mind.