See the shoutbox for further updates on Canada.

Yeah, right.

Good to see the Canadian government really pull out all the stops to sort out these terrorists.

The sooner these extant threats to civilization are dealt with the better. Then Canada can get back to decent civilzed behaviour. Like...

Letting it's major mining companies shrug off gang rape...http://protestbarrick.net/article.php@id=971.html and collude with slave labour...https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/eritrea-fifth-estate-1.3444779.

Letting oil companies walk over tribal rights.. https://www.aptnnews.ca/national-news/85-first-nations-tribes-call-on-trudeau-to-condemn-enbridge-for-involved-in-dakota-pipeline-project/.

Selling arms to regimes responsible for human rights abuses...https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/canada-now-the-second-biggest-arms-exporter-to-middle-east-data-show/article30459788/.

All without touching a penny of their money.

But protestors disagreeing about public health strategy, well...clearly they must be stopped at all costs.

The act gives the federal government sweeping powers, such as to regulate and freeze an individual’s bank account... — NOS4A2

Nothing new there. Ever been audited by the revenue department?

Selling arms to regimes responsible for human rights abuses... — Isaac

Second largest arms exporter...hmmm. From 2016. That sounds a bit fetched when you think that Canada would be pass then Russia, France or UK in arms deals.

You do know that General Dynamics and Prat& Whitney are American corporations? It's not like there is an Canadian owned arms industry, but the following:

most of what Canada produces in the way of military components and parts goes to the U.S. The bulk of Canada’s military subcomponents are for U.S. systems

Hence Canada doesn't show up on any ordinary list.





But coming back to the actual topic, seems that the Canadian government hasn't noticed that after omicron the attitudes have changed and this is the time when ordinary, let's say even non-Trumpian not populist-governments, are easing the restrictions and are going the way Sweden went long ago.

Sure. I've just been getting some continuing education about tobacco abuse. It's stands out starkly that governments do nothing about it when it's clearly killing people: about half a million Americans each year.

It's not like there is an Canadian owned arms industry, but the following: — ssu

Well we hear now that the truckers are all American infiltrators, or Russian plants, or both possibly, so clearly Canada has no limits as to the jurisdictional scope of it's clampdown on terrorists. Not really the point, though.

the Canadian government hasn't noticed that after omicron the attitudes have changed and this is the time when ordinary, let's say even non-Trumpian not populist-governments, are easing the restrictions and are going the way Sweden went long ago. — ssu

Yep, the narrative is losing it's sway. It's as if some other distraction has come along to take its place. Oh look...https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-a-full-invasion-by-russia-could-trigger-world-war-three-warns-government-minister-in-kiev-12496570. Look over there! Another shock crisis the solution to which will make the largest industrial lobbies even richer, who'd a' thought it, what a coincidence.

I've just been getting some continuing education about tobacco abuse. It's stands out starkly that governments do nothing about it when it's clearly killing people: about half a million Americans each year. — frank

Yep. 8 million deaths a year and still no simple ban on sales. But not only tobacco.

Obesity (4.7 million deaths) - fuck all, not even a sugar tax, let alone any restrictions on advertising.
Pharmacuticals pushing opiods (half a million deaths) - fuck all, they're back at it pushing for even less oversight.
Banks laundering money for drug cartels (tens of thousands of deaths) - fuck all (to be fair HSBC did get a very stern look from the AG)
Endemic alcohol abuse (3 million deaths) - fuck all, not even so much as funding support groups
Companies supporting child slavery (79 million in hazardous work) - fuck all, voluntary schemes for whitewashing.
Pesticides, PCFEs, greenhouse gases... all treated like side-issues which must be weighed carefully against economic interests and personal freedom

And yet the idea that the mandates, lockdowns and censorship over covid are all done out of our government's concern for human welfare is somehow supposed to be not only plausible, but so much so that alternative narratives are dismissible as 'conspiracy'.

Well...they really have had a Damascus moment haven't they, what a stroke of luck. I guess we're all saved.

No doubt they'll be flexing their new found legislative muscle on all those other issues any minute...but I won't hold my breath.

Yep. The US is starting to drop mask mandates. It's becoming thoroughly endemic here.

Nothing new there. Ever been audited by the revenue department?

Have you ever had your bank account frozen for participating in a protest?

From Vinay Prasad (the well known fringe extremist and far-right agitator - apparently!)

Omicron has 3 characteristics different than prior variants. First, it spreads very fast. Second, it is less lethal, and, third, vaccines do less to stop symptomatic infection. These 3 features mean that in this wave, or in a series of subsequent waves, the virus will eventually reach all people. You cannot avoid it forever. There are 5 key policy lessons from all this.

First, mask mandates make no sense. Almost all community wide mask mandates this entire pandemic asked people to wear any mask, and most people chose a cloth one. Cloth masks never worked to slow the spread of the virus. We analyzed all relevant studies months ago, and found no benefit, and a cluster randomized trial in Bangladesh found that cloth masks failed. Recently, CNN admitted as much.

Now, some argue that we need to wear higher grade masks, such as n95s or equivalent. Anyone who wishes should be free to do so, but they should not be mandated. We have no evidence such population wide mandates will help, and the truth is, even if worn perfectly, the mask might only delay the time until you are eventually are infected, and not avert it. Worse, along the way you will suffer the discomfort and inconvenience of the mask.

Second, schools should not close. Closing schools was always a fool’s errand. High quality studies show school closure does not even slow spread in communities. Kids, working moms and society suffer significantly when schools close. Kids have bigger worries in life than COVID19. Outcomes for healthy kids are excellent and on par with seasonal flu. School closure in the USA was disproportionately an indulgence of liberal cities with strong teacher’s unions.

Third, we cannot keep the brakes on society. People are voting with their feet, and outside of urban liberal enclaves, people are enjoying restaurants, bars, and vacations. In many regions, you would not know a pandemic is going on. This reflects a fundamental exhaustion of the public. Given that so much of the public is done with restrictions, placing extremely harsh ones on college campuses, for instance, makes no sense. Colleges are full of the healthiest members of society. Asking these kids to be imprisioned in their rooms or dorms or on campus neither helps them or broader society.

Fourth, we have to focus on the most vulnerable people in society, as we always should have. The CDC director has now admitted this, in a remarkable turn. Nursing homes should get booster shots right now. We should think about improving staffing and infection control at these settings.

Fifth, hospitals should improve their capacities. Some health care workers were fired or forced out because of not receiving the vaccine. Some of these people had already had COVID19. These people should be permitted to return to work, with appropriate precautions, because at this juncture we need them far more than any risk they pose.

It's as if some other distraction has come along to take its place. — Isaac

No, that's just how the modern media works.

First it was leaders of countries who held media briefings about corona-virus. Then it was the ministers and officials in charge of health issues. Then a lower ranking officials who held the meetings with lower media participation. Then the media didn't report it anymore as the most important news and goes on to other news. And in the end, you might find information about the coronavirus and the pandemic just by going to your national health officials website.

That's how pandemics end....not with a bang, but with a whimper, like a famous poet said.

But if we point to the failure of governments to do anything about the sugar and tobacco industries, we're saying the government should have far reaching power to protect the health of citizens. Measures taken to control the pandemic were exactly that.

Have you ever had your bank account frozen for participating in a protest? — NOS4A2

No, but I've had a lot worse, I've been beaten and kicked all over my body. Believe it or not, that's what quite often happens when you protest the authorities.

I think the fact that freezing their bank accounts might hurt them says a lot about the type of people that are protesting there. Who are they, a bunch of spoiled rich kids, who feel so entitled as to be excluded from having to take their medicine? Oh the poor children, we ought to feel so sorry for them, now that the government has decided to put an end to their three week long rave party, up on the hill. They'll become a lot more informed about what it means to lose one's freedom, when they find themselves in a jail cell.

I've walked through three different freedom convoy protests where I live and it is nothing like what you describe, so I can reject your characterization out of hand. All walks of life and background were in attendance. I suppose I can understand your position, though, because perhaps you've never had to use a bank account, which is used to store something called "money", the prevailing means by which many of us buy food and pay bills. A little bruise is nothing in comparison.

The protests have been so peaceful that the Ottawa had to make honking illegal in order to impose any punishment. Now anyone who donates to it will be subject to investigation and the seizure of money without due process or court order, and all for donating some money to a bunch of truckers parking their trucks and honking their horns.

No, that's just how the modern media works. — ssu

Uh huh, nothing to see here, everything as it should be, always was, always will be...

Appeal to mediocrity isn't an argument, no matter how well it fits with the script for the 'worldly wise voice of centrism' character you like to play.

if we point to the failure of governments to do anything about the sugar and tobacco industries, we're saying the government should have far reaching power to protect the health of citizens. Measures taken to control the pandemic were exactly that. — frank

Not at all. The point I'm making is that it's ridiculous to argue that the government's draconian interventions in this pandemic are all for our own good and not for any other motive when the history of successive governments has been an unbroken run of unwillingness to even so much as lift a finger to prevent the deaths of millions every year.

Those who argue that the suggestion of ulterior motives is 'paranoid conspiracy' are asking us to believe that governments who have done absolutely nothing about the deaths of millions again and again, from crisis after crisis are suddenly possessed of a hand-wringing concern for humanity which somehow eluded them when millions were dying from opioids, obesity, smoking...or simple poverty.

The common theme is that in those other issues, corporations (who spend billions lobbying those very governments) stood to gain by the government dragging its feet. This time they stand to gain by the government laying it on thick.

Cui bono.

Uh huh, nothing to see here, everything as it should be, always was, always will be... — Isaac

It doesn't mean that. The media operates how it does. Then there is the reality that is happening, which is important.

Appeal to mediocrity isn't an argument, no matter how well it fits with the script for the 'worldly wise voice of centrism' character you like to play. — Isaac

Sorry for being centrist and not going with the given stereotypical characters.

Sorry for being centrist and not going with the given stereotypical characters. — ssu

You realise passing off moderate centrism as the only truly wise assessment in all situations is a 'stereotypical character'. It's pretty much the archetype.

Some things actually are bad, sometimes there is massive collusion, sometimes the group that seem like the 'bad guys' seem that way because they actually are the bad guys.



Wealthy corporate CEOs and shareholders lobby, bribe and coerce governments and media outlets to act in ways which increase their wealth, that's not even in dispute. Every time you explain away some situation of benefit to them as something that just 'happens anyway' you take the spotlight away from that behaviour, you underplay it's significance.

If you had a portfolio of absolutely conclusive evidence that no collusion took place I'd understand your position, you might want to take down the unmitigated greed but are compelled by the evidence to admit no such thing this time...

...but you're not. There's no wealth of evidence either way, so the question is why your default position is to underplay the influence of the super wealthy. Are you hoping they'll let you into the club if you show a decent amount of servility?

Not at all. The point I'm making is that it's ridiculous to argue that the government's draconian interventions in this pandemic are all for our own good and not for any other motive when the history of successive governments has been an unbroken run of unwillingness to even so much as lift a finger to prevent the deaths of millions every year. — Isaac

It does not follow that since government has failed in some ways to protect public health that it can't be doing that with pandemic measures.

I can point out ways that the US government has been very diligent and effective on some public health issues, but I want to highlight the logical issue above.

It does not follow that since government has failed in some ways to protect public health that it can't be doing that with pandemic measures. — frank

I didn't say it did. It's a constant theme here (in reflection of wider society)... Glance back over my contributions on this thread. Who's making the claims? It's not (largely) the anti- side, it's the pro- side. I'm happy for you to think the government are being super helpful this time. The problem here is that you (generic you) are not so happy for me not to think that. It's my legitimacy in reaching different conclusions that's being constantly called into question, not your legitimacy in reaching the mainstream ones.

What I'm arguing against is not your opinion that the government have it right this time, I've no problem with you thinking that. I'm arguing against the repeated assertion that I can't even argue the opposite without having my mental health called into question.

I'm not arguing that the government actually are colluding with corporations for their benefit in managing this crisis, I'm arguing for the far lesser claim that it's not 'paranoid conspiracy' to think that they are... It's absolutely uncontested fact that that's what they do at least some of the time.

didn't say it did. It's a constant theme here (in reflection of wider society)... Glance back over my contributions on this thread. Who's making the claims? It's not (largely) the anti- side, it's the pro- side. I'm happy for you to think the government are being super helpful this time. The problem here is that you (generic you) are not so happy for me not to think that. It's my legitimacy in reaching different conclusions that's being constantly called into question, not your legitimacy in reaching the mainstream ones. — Isaac

Wait. We were talking about intentions and you jumped to effectiveness. It's two different things.

I'm not surprised that mistakes were made starting from China's original fuck ups regarding recognition and containment.

Humans do fuck up on the way to getting it right. But even if they fuck up completely, they can still have good intentions.

Is this something you accept?

Is this something you accept? — frank

Absolutely. What I object to is the insinuation that it's paranoid conspiracy simply to argue that people haven't had good intentions in any given case. They might have, they might not have. It's perfectly legitimate to argue either case in any given set of circumstances.

Personally, here, I see a lot of effort being put into silencing opposing narratives and that immediately makes me suspicious that intentions are not good, but it's only a suspicion, I'm only arguing for the right to hold such a suspicion and not be branded a lunatic or anti-social for doing so.

Absolutely. What I object to is the insinuation that it's paranoid conspiracy simply to argue that people haven't had good intentions in any given case. They might have, they might not have. It's perfectly legitimate to argue either case in any given set of circumstances. — Isaac

Sure.

Personally, here, I see a lot of effort being put into silencing opposing narratives and that immediately makes me suspicious that intentions are not good, but it's only a suspicion, I'm only arguing for the right to hold such a suspicion and not be branded a lunatic or anti-social for doing so. — Isaac

Ok. We're lifting mask mandates in a couple of weeks where I live. Yay!

I suppose I can understand your position, though, because perhaps you've never had to use a bank account, which is used to store something called "money", the prevailing means by which many of us buy food and pay bills. A little bruise is nothing in comparison. — NOS4A2

That's an expected reply, which sums the attitude very well: 'money is more important than a healthy body'. Obviously the proclaimed "freedom" is not even relevant, it's a money issue. And having money in the bank account is prioritized over having a healthy body. Thanks for the demonstration, NOS.

The protests have been so peaceful that the Ottawa had to make honking illegal in order to impose any punishment. — NOS4A2

Right, you'd categorize a bunch of 120db air horns and train sirens blowing 24/7, right outside your front door as "peaceful". I'd classify that as torture. You know, one of those horns can be heard miles away (literal truth), imagine a bunch of them right outside your door. Now torture is illegal, but those who engage in it always find new ways of doing it, and claim what they're doing does not qualify, in the attempt to avoid reciprocal punishment.

That's an expected reply, which sums the attitude very well: 'money is more important than a healthy body'. Obviously the proclaimed "freedom" is not even relevant, it's a money issue. And having money in the bank account is prioritized over having a healthy body. Thanks for the demonstration, NOS.

That’s the expected reply. It suits perfectly well a pampered culture. A bruise is worse than poverty. Getting a spanking is worse than the government stealing your property.

Right, you'd categorize a bunch of 120db air horns and train sirens blowing 24/7, right outside your front door as "peaceful". I'd classify that as torture. You know, one of those horns can be heard miles away (literal truth), imagine a bunch of them right outside your door. Now torture is illegal, but those who engage in it always find new ways of doing it, and claim what they're doing does not qualify, in the attempt to avoid reciprocal punishment.

They are torturers now. I guess the protesters are much stronger than the rest of the population because they are right next to the horns instead of miles away. So they are torturing themselves, and they still look as happy as clams.

You realise passing off moderate centrism as the only truly wise assessment in all situations is a 'stereotypical character'. It's pretty much the archetype. — Isaac

Far more typical is simply to see everything as a racket of the rich. Either it's leftist or the right-wing populism, but for both it's the elite that is against the ordinary people. And that's all basically what one has to say.

If being against the "everything" part, but admitting that there are indeed rackets and obviously many want to influence the public discourse (and those with money have more ability to do it) is a bit too complicated, well, sorry.

I'm open for discussion and as this is a corona-virus thread, do notice that a) I was first doubtful about the corona-epidemic and thought it might be something similar to what we have seen earlier. And people here (and naturally the events) did make me change my mind. Then b) I have considered the lab-leak hypothesis to be totally possible, perhaps even probable even before it was totally politically incorrect.

Have you ever had your bank account frozen for participating in a protest? — NOS4A2

Do you mean those GoFundMe accounts?

... scrolled by the other day.

The protests have been so peaceful that the Ottawa had to make honking illegal in order to impose any punishment. — NOS4A2

The lives of local residents were interrupted by the noise.
There were counter-protests and locals that wanted them to quit keeping them up at night.
They spoke, were heard, interviewed, discussions took place; now they're no longer interested in that, only that others hear them.

• 5G and QAnon: how conspiracy theorists steered Canada’s anti-vaccine trucker protest (The Guardian; Feb 8, 2022)
• There Is Nothing Normal about One Million People Dead from COVID (Scientific American; Feb 10, 2022)

I'd kind of like to conclude my personal pandemic tracker, it's getting long.
Juvenile adults doing theatrics ain't helping.

Do you mean those GoFundMe accounts?

No, I mean bank accounts. Bank accounts are being frozen for the crime of donating to a protest.

Bank accounts are being frozen for the crime of donating to a protest. — NOS4A2

Correction, the bank accounts are frozen for contributing to illegal activity. That's the point of the emergencies act, it allows the government to make declarations as to what is illegal, like the torture described above. Sorry NOS, but you seem to be out of sync with the reality of the situation, just like those people I saw on TV, getting arrested today. They keep insisting, we're in the right, we're not doing anything wrong, they can't arrest me. Like you, they just don't seem to understand, it's the government who decides what constitutes a crime, not the criminals.

Bank accounts are being frozen for the crime of donating to a protest. — NOS4A2

Correction, the bank accounts are frozen for contributing to illegal activity. — Metaphysician Undercover

If BLM blockaded the US capital NOS would be singing a different tune.*

Just more ingroup-outgroup posturing.


*The I Just Lost My Shit Hebe-Jitterbug Threnody