I can't pretend to understand this phenomenon experientially but I can support people and wish them the best. — Tom Storm

Yes!

I can't pretend to understand this phenomenon experientially but I can support people and wish them the best. — Tom Storm

You support thousands of young women including teenage girls having healthy breasts removed, the indoctrination of children, undermining women's rights, the existence of 100 genders and so on.

So there is nothing noble about your position. Maybe you didn't read any of the thread?


"Lia Thomas, 22, smashed two U.S. swimming records at an Akron, Ohio contest
Thomas won the 1,650 freestyle in a record time of 15:59.71 beating her closest rival Anna Sofia Kalandaze by 38 seconds
She left rivals floundering in a 500 freestyle beating them by 14 seconds "

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10282301/Transgender-UPenn-swimmer-Lia-Thomas-smashes-records-weekend-meets-14-SECONDS-ahead-rival.html

"A devastated young transgender woman says she has been left 'disfigured and feeling like a freak' following two botched gender reassignment operations.

Kia, 26, from Wales, says she was forced to seek private treatment after the NHS procedures left her in near-constant pain and with her urethra permanently exposed, which she says means she is unable to have sex or urinate properly.

She says doctors also failed to inform her she had effectively been 'castrated' by the operations - as the procedures have left her with limited sensation.

The 26-year-old, who is suffering from anxiety, says she is still a virgin, has never had a boyfriend, and is desperate to lead a 'normal life'."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-5191129/Transgender-woman-castrated-botched-surgery-NHS.html

"What eventuated was a botched job, mutilating her genitals to the point where she can't perform the simplest physical tasks and leaving her stranded on an invalids benefit."

https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/90412433/botched-overseas-sex-change-leaves-auckland-woman-mutilated-and-facing-lifetime-of-chronic-pain

"9 Transgender Patients Complain Of Mutilation, Botched Sex-Change Surgeries In Oregon"

All gender affirmations surgeries are botched because by nature the are mutilating healthy body parts. But I can link you to endless stories of the side effects of these surgeries which are being promoted as health care. Hippocrates would be rolling in his mausoleum.

https://thefederalist.com/2018/12/06/9-transgender-patients-complain-mutilation-botched-sex-change-surgeries-oregon/

Would you refer to someone with XX male syndrome using "he" or "she" (or both or neither)? — Michael

This person is intersex, as it says on the wiki. People with abnormal or mixed-sex characteristics/traits have always been "intersex". Intersex is uncommon and a fact. Just like male and female. There are males, females and then intersex. This is the only time the 'they/them' pronoun makes any form of sense outside of arbitrary made-up identities. I respect the intersex and they must be protected. The other arbitrary trivial identities are just that.

What are these "necessary" attributes? — Michael

It is very simple. The necessary attributes in order to constitute X, all said 'parts'. What are the 'necessary' attributes of Sodium? Sodium is not 'radium' because it lacks the necessary attributes to be so. There are factual distinctions that make a difference between males and females, which is why we make the scientifically interesting distinction between the two. This is untrue for 'gender', which is a completely arbitrary concept that anyone can insert anything into, which is why you are confused. I do not care about gender at all, or 'man and woman' because it is a made up concept. A male in a dress is not a female, so who gives a flying fk if he wears a dress to go against something abstract concept of 'man'. This is a trivial offensive way to view a female, and mockery of genuine transsexual individuals because the reality is, a 'male or female' without dysphoria can wear anything and still not feel a need to augment themselves.

Gender is a concept held dearly by those suffering from body-idealistic narcissistic solipsism, yes, including the trad-conservative cornballs and the trangenders, and other gender and race fetishtists.

The rich are making money off the people who genuinely think a woman in a suit that grunts is less of a woman in the factual, which is absolutely insane. These people are no different from the traditionalist disgusting conservatives reaffirming gender roles while dishonestly claiming to abolish them by being the male that wears a dress, who reaffirms the traditionalist conservative magical-thinking nutjobs that also think he is less of a man as a matter of necessary factual maleness because he put on a dress.

I am sex essentialist, and funnily enough, so are silenced transsexuals, which is why although impossible, I sympathize with their condition more than the transgenders that are completely made up unicorns, like 'man and woman', the concepts that are just magical-thinking trad-con fetishes the transgenders continue to reaffirm instead of progressively moving on from 'gender-thinking'.

In order to be considered 'trans', you must have the necessary traits and attributes to be so, if the medical professional is doing their job correctly, this is why a random cannot claim to be trans and receive hormones without meeting the necessary criteria. A trans that lacks X, Y, Z necessary traits is not 'trans'.

Females with strong male-like characteristics are known to have hormonal abnormalities, she is still female, but this is recognize medically as an abnormal deviation. This is not a 'transgender' or 'trans' person, this is a female with a beard, because she lacks the necessary attributes to be 'trans' (dysphoria), etc..

This question itself is a strong refute transsexualism as is, because if there are no necessary attributes that make X and Y, there are no necessary attributes to 'transition' to - or to lack/claim to have, which appeals to some form of agender society, which does not work, in so far as female and males (and this intuitive) distinction exists as a matter of fact in a non-arbitrary non-abstract world.

Transsexualism makes a direct claim, or implies to a series of series necessary attributes that exist in the opposite sex to either "be" or "not be," such as observed differences in trans brains that correspond with the 'sex' they claim to be (although not in fact), which justifies their transition or need to.

It appeals to a binary system, which is why the term was changed to be arbitrary and include 'gender' which does not exist in any real form.

There is nothing real about gender. There are no 'biological genders' like there are no 'biological races', it is a made up cash-grab like masculinity and femininity, yet nutjobs still think Transgenderism exists in any real fashion.

While it is impossible to transition from one sex to another, it is entirely reasonable to grasp the concept of transsexualism in so far male and female exists as a matter of fact, while transgenderism does not exist in no interesting way that is not solely mental dependent (or indistinguishable from mental disorder). Transsexualism falls a part where the trans individual starts making claims that a transition (of X to Y) has occurred.

The trans person has augmented themselves, not 'transitioned' because they lack the necessary attributes of the opposite sex to become one, hence, why they augment themselves.

Every little thing comes down to money. Companies scramble to present a PC image so as to avoid losing their share of the market. That's why I, a healthcare worker, have been trained to be sensitive to trans issues.

Sniff all you want. There's nothing you can do about it. — frank

Before retirement from social work, I occasionally provided services to trans persons. I treated them with respect and sensitivity, as expected, as trained. I've known a number of transsexual persons since... about 1974. I accepted them as part of the gay community (which early on was the only community they could belong to) just as I did fems, butches, fats, thins, drug users, hairy, hairless, straights, bisexuals, and so on. I've listened to trans people describe their situation, how it manifested itself in their lives, and have heard about and observed the difficulties they've had,

So I get it. And, sniff: no, there is nothing I can do about it. I checked my last long range plan, and fixing trans people isn't on my TO DO list. Just so you know.

Medical and social service workers should of course respect their clients. That doesn't mean believing everything they say, or accepting as truth everything they believe in. I don't believe everything that I have believed in the past, and some ancient truths now seem pretty crappy. So, I maybe buy half of what many trans people say about transsexualism / transgenderism.

Hey, I don't believe everything that gay people say about being gay, either. Or, straight people, or young people, or old people, or anybody else. In fact, I don't even agree with everything I'VE said about being gay.

Sure. Most humans are crazy, belligerent, and stupid as hell.

I'll go along with that.

It isn't from a scientific perspective. How has it become so accepted as a concept? — Andrew4Handel

It depends on educational system and how modernity has increased in the recent years. Until 1992 these people were considered sick for UN. but in the recent days, there is not problem at all for being a transexual, except for all of those countries which are religious.
I think it has become accepted because (Western civilization) made a tendency of inclusion during XXIth century. It is well seen when a country does not prosecute the so called minorities.
I the other hand, I do not really know if we really reached a good point of empathy towards LGBTIQ group because far-right political leaders and parties are increasing a lot... But why should they be bothered about transsexuals? I can't answer... They say, this system of progress destroy the traditional concept of "family"

More than being accepted, I guess we all should respect it, just for empathy

You support thousands of young women including teenage girls having healthy breasts removed, the indoctrination of children, undermining women's rights, the existence of 100 genders and so on.

So there is nothing noble about your position — Andrew4Handel

:100:

There are many, many cases of post-operation regret but for some reason that part never gets highlighted. (That would perhaps put a stop to the delusion that science can change sex organs). The operations are simply body mutilations. This is not something praiseworthy and neither is encouraging children to take puberty blockers.

There are factual distinctions that make a difference between males and females, which is why we make the scientifically interesting distinction between the two. — Cobra

What are these factual distinctions?

This person is intersex, as it says on the wiki. People with abnormal or mixed-sex characteristics/traits have always been "intersex". Intersex is uncommon and a fact. Just like male and female. There are males, females and then intersex. This is the only time the 'they/them' pronoun makes any form of sense outside of arbitrary made-up identities. I respect the intersex and they must be protected. The other arbitrary trivial identities are just that. — Cobra

Words like "male", "female", "him", and "her" existed long before we knew anything about DNA. DNA is just the blueprint that directs how a foetus develops. Typically the presence of a Y chromosome is required for a penis and testes to develop, but when the SRY gene is included in an X chromosome it also causes a penis and testes to develop.

On what grounds would you say that having a Y chromosome is a necessary characteristic of being a man? As someone who is partial to Wittgenstein's approach to language, I can't see the connection. I could (at least historically) understand the connection between the use (and so meaning) of the word "man" and the presence of a penis and testes (amongst other observable traits), and so that male and female refer to phenotypes, and so that an XX male is a male (as the condition explicitly says), but genotypes seem to me to be irrelevant.

There are many, many cases of post-operation regret but for some reason that part never gets highlighted. — emancipate

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/media-s-detransition-narrative-fueling-misconceptions-trans-advocates-say-n1102686

In a 2015 survey of nearly 28,000 people conducted by the U.S.-based National Center for Transgender Equality, only 8 percent of respondents reported detransitioning, and 62 percent of those people said they only detransitioned temporarily. The most common reason for detransitioning, according to the survey, was pressure from a parent, while only 0.4 percent of respondents said they detransitioned after realizing transitioning wasn’t right for them.

The results of a 50-year survey published in 2010 of a cohort of 767 transgender people in Sweden found that about 2 percent of participants expressed regret after undergoing gender-affirming surgery.

The numbers are even lower for nonsurgical transition methods, like taking puberty blockers. According to a 2018 study of a cohort of transgender young adults at the largest gender-identity clinic in the Netherlands, 1.9 percent of adolescents who started puberty suppressants did not go on to pursue hormone therapy, typically the next step in the transition process.

A survey conducted by by a trans rights activist organisation is sure not to have a pro trans agenda. Right? Surely not a conflict of interest. This is propaganda. Just like all western mainstream media has a pro trans agenda.

Then could you link me your non-biased source that shows a high degree of transition regret?

Also I don't think https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24872188/ or https://www.jsm.jsexmed.org/article/S1743-6095%2818%2930057-2/fulltext were surveys conducted by a trans rights activist organisation.

The survey in 2015 was conducted by national center for transgender equality. I would present you a non-bias source but unfortunately the entire western media is pumping out pro trans propaganda

The survey in 2015 was conducted by national center for transgender equality. — emancipate

And the other two surveys weren't.

I would present you a non-bias source but unfortunately the entire western media is pumping out pro trans propaganda

Are you saying that you don't have a source? If not then why do you believe that there is a high rate of regret? If your opinion is based on some evidence that show me the evidence.

Studies about trans regret from unbiased sources get blocked due to fears about political correctness. For example

A therapist says he is "astonished" by a university's decision to stop him studying people who decide to reverse gender reassignment operations.

James Caspian wanted to write a thesis on "detransition" as part of his master's degree in counselling and psychotherapy at Bath Spa University.

He said it was rejected by the university's ethics committee because it could be "politically incorrect".

Mr Caspian, a counsellor who specialises in therapy for transgender people, told Radio 4: "I was astonished at that decision.

"I think that a university exists to encourage discussion, research - dissent even, challenging perhaps ideas that are out of date or not particularly useful."

He says he wanted to study people who had swapped gender and then changed their minds after coming across evidence of a growing number of people who regretted having the surgery and finding no research had been done into the subject.

Better 'not to offend

He amended his proposal - to include people who had transitioned to men and reverted to living as women but without reversing their surgery - and resubmitted it, but it was rejected by the ethics committee.

"The fundamental reason given was that it might cause criticism of the research on social media and criticism of the research would be criticism of the university and they also added it was better not to offend people," he said.

According to the Times, it was rejected because "engaging in a potentially politically incorrect piece of research carries a risk to the university".

American transgender activist Riki Wilchins said studies on transgender people could have a "political undercurrent" and potentially have a negative effect on the way they are treated.

"People have been launching studies that undercut transgender people's access to surgery for decades now," she told Radio 4.

But Mr Caspian said older studies were out of date and the research was necessary "to help people".

He added: "The whole field has completely changed over the last few years.

"The idea that we might use the information from the research I was going to do in a way that wouldn't help people is completely wrong."

He is considering a legal challenge but is waiting for the university to conclude an internal investigation.

This researcher ultimately submitted and lost a legal challenge. Go free speech!

Are you saying that you don't have a source? If not then why do you believe that there is a high rate of regret? If your opinion is based on some evidence that show me the evidence — Michael

Vandenbussche, Elie (2021) - "Detransition-Related Needs and Support: A Cross-Sectional Online Survey"

Singh, Devita Bradley, Susan and Zucker, Kenneth, (2021) - "A Follow-Up Study of Boys With Gender Identity Disorder"

Cantor, James (2016) - "Do Trans Kids Stay Trans When They Grow Up?"

Clarke, Anna Churcher (2019) - "‘Taking the Lid Off the Box’: The Value of Extended Clinical Assessment for Adolescents Presenting with Gender Identity Difficulties"

Davenport, Charles W (1986) - "A Follow-Up Study of 10 Feminine Boys"

Delay, Dawn; Martin, Carol Lynn; Cook, Rachel E; Hanish, Laura D (2018) - “The Influence of Peers During Adolescence: Does Homophobic Name Calling by Peers Change Gender Identity?”

Dhejne, Cecilia; Lichtenstein, Paul; Boman, Marcus; Johansson, Anna LV; Långström, Niklas; Landén, Mikael (2011) - "Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden"

Drummond, KD; Bradley, SJ; Peterson-Badali, M; Zucker, KJ (2008) - "A Follow-Up Study of Girls with Gender Identity Disorder"

Green, R (1987) - "The 'Sissy-Boy Syndrome' and the Development of Homosexuality"

Kosky, RJ (1987) - "Gender-disordered Children: Does Inpatient Treatment Help?"

Lebovitz, PS (1972) - "Feminine Behavior in Boys: Aspects of Its Outcome."

Marchiano, Lisa (2017) - "Outbreak: On Transgender Teens and Psychic Epidemics"

Money, J; Russo, AJ (1979) - "Homosexual Outcome of Discordant Gender Identity/Role: Longitudinal Follow-Up."

Singh, Devita (2012) - "A Follow-Up Study of Boys with Gender Identity Disorder"

Steensma, Thomas D; McGuire, Jenifer K; Kreukels, Baudewijntje PC; Beekman, Anneke J; Cohen-Kettenis, Peggy Tine (2013) - "Factors Associated with Desistence and Persistence of Childhood Gender Dysphoria: A Quantitative Follow-Up Study"

Wallien, Madeleine SC; Cohen-Kettenis, Peggy Tine (2008) - "Psychosexual Outcome of Gender-Dysphoric Children"

Zuger, B (1978) - "Effeminate Behavior Present in Boys from Childhood: Ten Additional Years of Follow-Up"

Zuger, B (1984) - "Early Effeminate Behavior in Boys: Outcome and Significance for Homosexuality"

Only one of those has something to do with what we are discussing.

https://www.docdroid.net/57t8V1q/clarke-2019-extened-clinical-assessment-pdf#page=6

A total of 156 cases met age criteria and were undergoing assessment in the specified time period (47 male-bodied young people; 109 female-bodied young people). Four cases were excluded due to dropping out after one session, 20 female-bodied young people were excluded due to intending to pursue medical interventions in adult services, 4 cases that gave practical reasons as to why they were not seeking medical interventions at that time were also excluded (two males; two females). Of the remaining 128 cases, 12 cases (9.4%) met criteria for GD emerging in adolescence, were actively requesting medical interventions at outset of assessment and ceased wishing to pursue medical interventions and/or no longer felt that their gender identity was incongruent with their biological sex.

...

Out of the 12 cases, the majority had not received a formal diagnosis of GD.

So only 9.4% wanted to pursue medical intervention but then changed their mind, and of them a majority had never even been formally diagnosed with gender dysphoria.

And from that you want to conclude that of the people who have been formally diagnosed with gender dysphoria and have actually transitioned there's a high rate of regret? That's very bad logic.

Do you have an actual study that concludes that there is a high rate of regret amongst people who actually transitioned?

It took you 3 mins to come to a conclusion that affirms your biases. Nope I will not provide you with more studies that you will not read.

Would you refer to someone with XX male syndrome using "he" or "she" (or both or neither)? — Michael

Easy. Male = he/him

When pronouns, "he" and " her" are a reference to one's sex, not gender - whatever that is if it's not the same as sex.
— Harry Hindu

According to who or what?

How we actually use language determines what words mean and pronoun-usage in the modern age is more complex than it may have been historically. — Michael

You say "complex", I say "confused".

This person is intersex, as it says on the wiki. People with abnormal or mixed-sex characteristics/traits have always been "intersex". Intersex is uncommon and a fact. Just like male and female. There are males, females and then intersex. This is the only time the 'they/them' pronoun makes any form of sense outside of arbitrary made-up identities. I respect the intersex and they must be protected. The other arbitrary trivial identities are just that. — Cobra

Intersex people do not have an equal amount of male and female characteristics. They have mostly one or the other, therefore they would fall into one of two clusters I mentioned in my post to Michael.

When pronouns, "he" and " her" are a reference to one's sex, not gender - whatever that is if it's not the same as sex.
— Harry Hindu

According to who or what?

How we actually use language determines what words mean and pronoun-usage in the modern age is more complex than it may have been historically.
— Michael
You say "complex", I say "confused". — Harry Hindu

How is it that "gender" became part of a discussion on changing "sex" if they aren't both related or the same thing?

Would you refer to someone with XX male syndrome using "he" or "she" (or both or neither)? — Michael

Easy. Male = he/him — Harry Hindu

So it's one's physical appearance that determines whether or not one is a man or a woman (rather than one's genes)?

How is it that "gender" became part of a discussion on changing "sex" if they aren't both related or the same thing? — Harry Hindu

You said that pronouns refer to sex. In modern usage pronouns refer (also) to gender.

I don't know why everyone makes such a big issue out of sex chromosomes. The majority of people have not had chromosome tests and would not even know if they had an abnormality. Such abnormalities only come to light if there is some reason to do a test. Just imagine someone realising that their chromosomes were not as they thought late on life. What effect would it have on their identity? I am sure that would be variable to a large extent on many factors.

This thread is an utter nonsense. People freely express their transphobic views, using extreme examples to make gross generalisations. Moderators engage in an argument instead of reinforcing the site guidelines:

Racists, homophobes, sexists, Nazi sympathisers, etc.: We don't consider your views worthy of debate, and you'll be banned for espousing them.

People express negative attitudes towards the minorities. No one is unhappy about surgeons in general, or the government, or about straight people who endanger their bodies to accentuate their sex. Straight men ruin their bodies with steroids. Straight women overdo plastic surgeries and suffer from bulimia. No one has expressed their disapprovement of straight people, but the thread is filled with negative attitude towards transgenders. I'm disappointed in some forum members and even more so with the moderators who allow clear violations of the site guidelines to happen.

Point out one example of transphobia in this thread.

Tom Storm expressed support towards transgender people, and got criticized with a dumb argument that being transgender equals to a specific set of extreme examples. That's a gross generalization, and it's a clear example of inappropriate transphobia.

I can't pretend to understand this phenomenon experientially but I can support (transgender) people and wish them the best. — Tom Storm

You support thousands of young women including teenage girls having healthy breasts removed, the indoctrination of children, undermining women's rights, the existence of 100 genders and so on. — Andrew4Handel

:100: — emancipate

Tom Storm expressed support towards transgender people, and got criticized with a dumb argument that being transgender equals to horrible things. That's a gross generalization, and it's a clear example of inappropriate transphobia. — pfirefry

Apparently your reading comprehension is lacking. So desperate to virtue signal..