So that is what you think trans folk are like? That is what you would base your opinion on?

Is yours an argument to refuse to acknowledge the existence of trans people, or for improvements in the prison system?

Then the fault is with the trans people. — baker

The "fault" is with folk such as you who are overly concerned with the contents of other people's underpants. You are the reason nearly half of transexual children have attempted suicide. Your attitude is the reason for the abominable statistics on the treatment of trans folk.

I’m a gay male. Plenty of men tried to teach me to throw like a guy. I spent hours trying to teach myself. I was desperate to get rid of such ‘feminine’ traits but it worked out about as well as that John Wayne scene from La Cage Aux Folles. — Joshs

I'm not going to insist you have some hidden throwing talent, and I'll accept you are a particularly terrible athlete, but I did have the task of coaching little league, and we used the (1) Point, (2) Step, (3) Throw method to some success. I also watched the girls play softball, and they definitely could throw.

At any rate, let give this one more go.

So stand up and let's do this. Assuming you're right handed, put a crumpled up piece of paper in your right hand. Square your shoulders with your feet squared underneath with your arms hanging by your side. Now, extend your left arm as if pointing forward directly at the wall with your left index finger pointed forward at the wall. Now step very far forward with your left foot forward, stepping so far that your left knee bends and your right leg is dragged forward and your right shoulder is angled back.

You're now going to spring forward and unravel that tightly spun up manly body of yours and use that pent up energy to propel the ball crushing through the wall.

Now take your right hand and bring it in a circular motion back and then make it pass just above your ear. This part is important! Move it above your ear. If you come in low, you're going to flip your elbow and look, well, like a girl.

Release the paper when the right arm is almost fully extended. Release too early and the paper is going to arc up toward the ceiling, and you'll look like, well, a girl. Release too late and it'll go straight to the ground, and you'll look, well, like a girl.

And this part is important, when you release the paper, growl like an angry tiger, look at the damage you did to the room, and then do a victory pirouette.

↪baker So that is what you think trans folk are like? That is what you would base your opinion on?

Is yours an argument to refuse to acknowledge the existence of trans people, or for improvements in the prison system? — Banno

One against political correctness.

The "fault" is with folk such as you who are overly concerned with the contents of other people's underpants. You are the reason nearly half of transexual children have attempted suicide. Your attitude is the reason for the abominable statistics on the treatment of trans folk.

So for you, society and social norms exist and must be obeyed when it pleases you, and should be regarded as non-existent and discarded when it doesn't please you, eh?

You are the reason nearly half of transexual children have attempted suicide. Your attitude is the reason for the abominable statistics on the treatment of trans folk.

No, yours is, your bad faith, and your ascribing to people stances they don't hold. Fuck you for this.

One against political correctness. — baker

Balls. I'm talking about children killing themselves. Get that through your thick head.

Also, in my native language, an idiomatic phrase like "you throw like a girl" doesn't exist. — baker

Is baseball a popular sport in your country?

I don't see that as "feminine", but as physically clumsy, perhaps even a neurological problem or otherwise poor eye-body coordination. A problem that is not limited to either sex — baker

Not a neurological problem, and not clumsiness. Rather, a perceptual-affective style that differs along a masculine-feminine spectrum. That is, the issue isn’t with the arm, the stance, the coordination. It is with a primordial level of perceptual processing. That is why such a wide range of behaviors ( speech pronunciation, posture, walk, throwing, general bodily comportment, response to stimuli) all are involved and tied together as gender-associated via primordial perceptual-affective style which one is born with.

To understand this is to understand why we recognize a different behavioral style in male vs female dogs and cats.

Read the whole thread and refute the evidence I have presented and arguments I have made.

Otherwise I can't take thee seriously.

Yes, children, ordinary or "trans", killing themselves because of other people's bad faith.
I wonder how many people you drove into misery with your bad faith.

So stand up and let's do this. Assuming you're right handed, put a crumpled up piece of paper in your right hand — Hanover

You’re missing the point. Im not denying that with enough training I could learn to ‘throw like a boy’. The point is that my natural tendency to throw the ball like a girl is related to my natural
tendency to walk in a feminine way, to speak in a way that has feminine characteristics, to have a bodily posture and comportment that tends in the same direction. I could add hundreds of particular behavioral
tendencies to this. What they all have in common is that they are all generated by a primary perceptual-affective neural style that manifests along a masculine-feminine spectrum. A gender-related style of perceptual processing is a fundamental component of , but not the entire basis of, the execution of such things as throwing a ball.

This is why female dogs have recognizably different behavioral styles than male dogs.

What causes the appallingly high suicide rate amongst trans people, including children, is the failure of others to recognise and acknowledge their existence. Here's an example of just that:

Then the fault is with the trans people. — baker

Rhetorical claims of bad faith will not cut it. The attitude towards trans people you have shown here is unethical, callous and shallow.

So for you, society and social norms exist and must be obeyed when it pleases you, and should be regarded as non-existent and discarded when it doesn't please you, eh? — baker

The shear hypocrisy of this is astonishing. You would refuse to allow trans folk to express their identity. You are imposing your preconceptions of sexuality and gender on others, creating "society and social norms [that] must be obeyed when it pleases you". So are you a hypocrite or just incapable of clear thinking?

Is baseball a popular sport in your country? — Joshs

No. Soccer is, but we have no "you kick like a girl".

Not a neurological problem, and not clumsiness. Rather, a perceptual-affective style that differs along a masculine-feminine spectrum. That is, the issue isn’t with the arm, the stance, the coordination. It is with a primordial level of perceptual processing. That is why such a wide range of behaviors ( speech pronunciation, posture, walk, throwing, general bodily comportment, response to stimuli) all are involved and tied together as gender-associated via primordial perceptual-affective style which one is born with.

To understand this is to understand why we recognize a different behavioral style in male vs female dogs and cats.

I don't buy this.

I've had cats for almost forty years, males and females, intact and sterilized, but I wouldn't ascribe the differences in behavior to their biological sex. Sure, I'm talking about a sample of altogether about twenty cats, which isn't much, but still. I would ascribe the differences primarily due to size, physical fitness, position in the hierarchy, past experiences of the animal with humans and other animals, character of their owners and upbringing style.

(I know a family that has had German shepherds for years, males and females. All their dogs were the same, regardless of age, size, and sex. All the same aggressiveness and superiority, just like their owners.)

Rather, a perceptual-affective style that differs along a masculine-feminine spectrum.

I know people say this, but it's not clear it is possible to actually empirically prove it. One thing I find most striking about many women nowadays, esp. the younger ones, is that they are so much like what would normally be regarded as male. Rough, stiff, voice in a lower registry, no waist, aggressive, unkind.

Many people nowadays have poor posture and poor gait. This is due to a lot of factors, notably, little exercise (so weak, short muscles and tendons, thus poorer coordination and suboptimal movement), cheap shoes (that force the person to pronate), and tight clothes. I see this in men and in women.

The point is that my natural tendency to throw the ball like a girl is related to my natural
tendency to walk in a feminine way, to speak in a way that has feminine characteristics, to have a bodily posture and comportment that tends in the same direction. — Joshs

Or, alternatively, you just feel ashamed, self-conscious. Over a long period of time, this can result in a kind of rigidity of bodily movements, with a lesser range of movement, less physical exertion, which then indeed "looks feminine".

Indeed, women are often taught to feel ashamed of themselves and to be self-conscious, but that doesn't make those traits and their physiological expression "feminine".

You attitude towards trans people is unethical, callous and shallow. — Banno

Yours has been, toward me, from the beginning.
You deserve a hundred more Scotties.

You would refuse to allow trans folk to express their identity. You are imposing your preconceptions of sexuality and gender on others, creating "society and social norms exist and must be obeyed when it pleases you". So are you a hypocrite or just incapable of clear thinking? — Banno

You just want things to be politically correct and shallow. That pays your salary or something?

"Their identity". We're at a philosophy forum. Identity is a construct.

Also, since we're at a philosophy forum, there's that about getting to know the other person's position first before criticizing it, rather than jumping the gun.

I've had cats for almost forty years, males and females, intact and sterilized, but I wouldn't ascribe the differences in behavior to their biological sex. — baker

(I know a family that has had German shepherds for years, males and females. All their dogs were the same, regardless of age, size, and sex. All the same aggressiveness and superiority, just like their owners.) — baker

Maybe you’re not very observant.

“From the data included in this review, it appears that males tend to be more aggressive and bolder than females, whereas a lower level of intraspecific sociability in males was reported. Females seem more inclined to interspecific social interactions with humans in tasks that require cooperative skills, whereas males appear more likely to interspecific social play. Studies of spatial skills underlined a higher flexibility in resorting to a particular navigation strategy in males in an outdoor environment; however, females appear to be better at spatial learning tasks in restricted areas. Lateralization studies seem to support the view that males are preferentially left-pawed and females are preferentially right-pawed; however, some studies have failed to replicate these results. Reports on visual focusing rank females as superior in focus on specific social and physical stimuli. In olfactory monitoring activity, only male dogs are able to discriminate kin.”

https://www.pedigree.com/getting-a-new-dog/getting-an-adult-dog/male-female-dogs-personality-differences#

https://www.thewildest.com/dog-behavior/what-are-differences-between-male-and-female-dogs

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6162565/

"Their identity". We're at a philosophy forum. Identity is a construct. — baker

And you would refuse to allow trans people to construct their identity, insisting that you do it for them.

You just want things to be politically correct and shallow. — baker

No; I want children not to feel so disenfranchised that they try to kill themselves. I want the same for trans adults.

If you would to be understood, be understanding. You may deal with the contents of your underwear as you please. Extend that privilege to others.

“From the data included in this review, it appears that males tend to be more aggressive and bolder than females, whereas a lower level of intraspecific sociability in males was reported. Females seem more inclined to interspecific social interactions with humans in tasks that require cooperative skills, whereas males appear more likely to interspecific social play. Studies of spatial skills underlined a higher flexibility in resorting to a particular navigation strategy in males in an outdoor environment; however, females appear to be better at spatial learning tasks in restricted areas. Lateralization studies seem to support the view that males are preferentially left-pawed and females are preferentially right-pawed; however, some studies have failed to replicate these results. Reports on visual focusing rank females as superior in focus on specific social and physical stimuli. In olfactory monitoring activity, only male dogs are able to discriminate kin. For other stimuli, the use of olfactory recording may be related to the differential relevance that olfactory signals have for males and females.” — Joshs

Appear, seem.

I find that so much depends on the relationship one has with the animal, however short the interaction. The same animal will act very differently, depending on what human is around and how the human behaves.

For example, one of our male cats gets relatively little cuddling from us, because the rest of the family somehow believe that it is unbecoming to cuddle with a male cat, but much more appropriate to cuddle with a female cat. I surmise that it is because of this that the male is more socially withdrawn than the females, and not because of something inherently male.
I've witnessed female cats fight ferociously over territory.

"Their identity". We're at a philosophy forum. Identity is a construct.
— baker

And you would refuse to allow trans people to construct their identity, insisting that you do it for them. — Banno

Nonsense. More of your bad faith.

Identity is a construct, it's a means to an end. And we live in a world where resources are limited. This is why it is only prudent to construct one's identity in line with that.

No; I want children not to feel so disenfranchised that they try to kill themselves. I want the same for trans adults.

Ordinary people don't simply get that kind of enfranchizement, they have to earn it, by submitting to social norms.

Why should one category of people be granted that enfranchizement for free?

If you would to be understood, be understanding. You may deal with the contents of your underwear as you please. Extend that privilege to others.

You've always had the American strategy: The best defense is a good offense. You do that. You start with that. You throw the first stone. Then you cry foul.

And we live in a world where resources are limited. This is why it is only prudent to construct one's identity in line with that...
Ordinary people don't simply get that kind of enfranchizement, they have to earn it, by submitting to social norms. — baker

Yours is a simple demand, that folk conform to you expectations.

In the end, the only genuine response to your posts is pathos. It is tragic that you have had to adopt the attitude you have, that you cannot accept the divergence of others.

I've witnessed female cats fight ferociously over territory. — baker

The question isn’t whether there are individual
differences in personality. It is whether, a robust gender-correlated difference can be extracted , above and beyond these individual differences that you cite. Study after study shows such robust gender-related differences in many different mammals. We already know of the link between testosterone and aggression.

I was once pregnant with a food baby and I am a man.

There is no delusionary thinking and there is no confusion. — Hanover

What an astonishing comment. Detransitioners have said that they were deluded about their identity.

However. Delusionary thinking can be identified by the content of speech.

If a statement is untrue or concerns an impossibility, speculating about what is in the speakers mind is irrelevant.
The idea that a man can become in any way near to being a biological female or that enacting female stereotypes earns someone the right to be called she is either delusion or pure misogyny. Real women experience what thousands of years of biological females have faced which is often second class status to men (or worse). No man should be entitled to claim that identity. That is why white people claiming to be black are scorned for trying to claim an identity of great historical importance due to persecution.

Nevertheless you apparently have limited access to claims made by trans identified people where several, in the case of men , are adamant that they are biological women and experience period cramps and the menopause. Apparently a man in France has one the right to the legal fallacy of being identified as the child's mother so the child now has no legal biological father. A completely narcissistic, self absorbed request and verdict celebrated by many in the trans community.

The reason I won't call you "king" is that you don't think yourself a king. — Hanover

Schizophrenics have real delusions so are you going to affirm a paranoid schizophrenics delusion that they are being hunted by the mafia because it is a firmly held belief?

You don't know what exactly the content of another persons mind is when they make statement.

I just refuse to make/utter untrue statements unless they are a little white lie to spare someone's feelings or a fiction for entertainment purpose.

If a trans identified individual said they would commit suicide if not called the correct pronoun that would suggest they were very mentally ill. Most biological males and females don't care about misgendering because they don't have a problem with recognising the immutability of their sex or need their identity propped up by others.

What is classed as misgendering is usually correctly recognising someone's sex and what is considered preferred pronouns is being forced to indulge in someone else's fantasies. I will always side with reality and the truth, telling people they can change sex/gender will just increase the number of people fostering and trying to enact this belief.

Schizophrenics have real delusions so are you going to affirm a paranoid schizophrenics delusion that they are being hunted by the mafia because it is a firmly held belief? — Andrew4Handel

Since I have never been deluded into thinking that MtF transsexuals believe they were born with vaginas and that they are actually biological females, helplessly wondering why others don't share their delusion, I can't respond to any of your nonsense.

They view gender as a mental designation. That you use the term differently is obvious, but your attempt to impose your usage on them and then to suggest they must mean what you mean when you use the term is an absurd equivocation fallacy.

If I call dogs "cats," that doesn't mean I think dogs meow. The question becomes what the user of the word wishes to convey with its usage.

Either transsexuality does not exist, or it is incoherent. A male and female cannot transition to the opposite sex because they lack the necessary attributes of the opposite sex to do so.

If a transsexual male claims they have the necessary attributes of a female, then he cannot transition to a female, and the word is essentially redundant.

It only works if matters of fact are mental-dependent. If no females existed as matters of a fact, it would be impossible for a male to 'claim to be one'.

Addressing this incoherence, the word was morphed to 'trans-gender' which includes a series of over 100 different arbitrary identities in order for trans ideology to make sense. Now, anything under this umbrella can make pragmatic 'social sense' because they view man and women are purely arbitrary abstract mental-dependent constructs in spite of clear logical incoherence and incorrectness.

I do think there are legitimate transsexuals, but I do not think transgenderism exists outside of socially normative abstractions. The majority of trans, especially the bored edgy kids today are not trans, and the actual legitimate transsexuals who are much less in number, have been silenced because they reaffirm sex essentialism that makes posers uncomfortable. The silenced minority of legitimate transsexuals have admitted they are incorrect in their thinking with integrity, but not 'wrong' in who they are.

I think there's something terribly wrong about this whole homosexual/transsexual affair.

One possible reason why a woman/girl thinks she/he is a man/boy (transsexual) is that she/he is attracted to other women/girls, but then lesbians (homosexual) don't go through a gender crisis even though they too like women/girls.

The same goes for men/boys who think they're women/girls.

The long and short of it:

Transsexual men have something against lesbians. They don't want to be lesbians.

Transsexual women are anti-gay (secretly, unknowingly, homophobic). They're unhappy being gay.

It's literally scientifically impossible to change sex. Sewing a sausage dick on isn't going to change that. Such a thing is delusional and we should treat it as such.

I'm probably going to get banned for stating this fact.

That you are paying undue attention to the contents of other folk's underwear is terse, but right on point. It's not your business. — Banno

It is our business when asking someone out on a date. Straights, lesbians and gays each deserve the right to know what sex they're bringing home with them. If we didn't live in a society where it was law to wear clothes, it wouldn't be an issue.

Sewing a sausage dick on isn't going to change that. — emancipate

:lol:

It is our business when asking someone out on a date. — Harry Hindu

So... ask.

It's not that simple.

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/gender-identity/sex-gender-identity/whats-intersex
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/232363#gender

The issue at hand might well be the inability of some folk to deal with the complexities of the real world.

Just wait. CRIPSR will change everything soon enough (as in easily within the century).