That would actually be a good one if I’d described something resembling a conspiracy theory. — AJJ

Read the thread. There's not much else you could hang your hat on.

To be honest, I didn't devote much time to reading what you had to say. I found my eyes rolling so much for the umpteenth time that I couldn't make it out. My bust. Carry on.

I guess that proves it. Please take your discoveries to the AMA, CDC, or WHO. You could win the Nobel Prize.

I don’t derive my opinions solely from myself. Some of those who informed my thinking probably deserve a prize.

Yeah, I hear Alex Jones is in the running this year.

John Ioannidis and Jonathan Sumption are two good examples of reputable persons who have advocated for caution and freedom since the beginning.

But are stumped by your questions, despite their having been answered repeatedly.

I’m sure you’ve understood them well.

They haven’t to my awareness dealt with those questions—I thought of those because I think. If my second question in particular has an answer then it isn’t easy to find. Feel free to direct me to it.

It won’t make a shred of difference. Why? Because the very fact that you have decided to “question” this issue, but don’t do so in almost any other area of your life, means you’re one more person who’s jumping in with a “side” — and you’ve happened to pick the wrong side, probably because of political or religious reasons and, hence, in bad faith. You’re not interested in learning anything. You’ve taken a side, and are now out to prove what you want to prove.

But just in case, this is what we know:

Vaccines are effective.
Vaccines are safe.
Vaccines slow the spread of COVID.

Even if one is otherwise healthy— it’s not simply about YOU, it’s about the community. Same reason we wear a mask— YOU may not care if you get it, but that’s not the point of a mask.

It won’t make a shred of difference. — Xtrix

It would.

Because the very fact that you have decided to “question” this issue, but don’t do so in almost any other area of your life — Xtrix

I question in all areas of life. I enjoy it.

means you’re one more person who’s jumping in with a “side” — Xtrix

We all have a “side”.

and you’ve happened to pick the wrong side — Xtrix

Have I though?

probably because of political or religious reasons and, hence, in bad faith. — Xtrix

This is basically saying I believe things for reasons. This is true. I hold my political and religious beliefs for reasons too.

You’re not interested in learning anything. — Xtrix

I am.

You’ve taken a side, and are now out to prove what you want to prove. — Xtrix

This is what you’re doing. It’s what everyone does all the time.

Vaccines are effective. — Xtrix

Not that effective. People still get ill and a train of booster shots is on the cards.

Vaccines are safe. — Xtrix

Debatable. Lots of documented side-effects, some truly awful.

Vaccines slow the spread of COVID. — Xtrix

Perhaps, but if they do this by reducing viral load and a healthy person’s immune system does this anyway then they’re a superfluous risk for those people.

Even if one is otherwise healthy— it’s not simply about YOU, it’s about the community. — Xtrix

It might be *about* the community, but whether they’re overall good for a community is debatable.

It might be *about* the community, but whether they’re overall good for a community is debatable. — AJJ

What would be the grounds for such a debate?

It would. — AJJ

No it wouldn't.

I question in all areas of life. — AJJ

No, you don't.

I enjoy it. — AJJ

No, you don't.

We all have a “side”. — AJJ

No, we don't.

Have I though? — AJJ

Yes, you have.

This is basically saying I believe things for reasons. — AJJ

No, it's not.

This is true. — AJJ

No, it's not.

I hold my political and religious beliefs for reasons too. — AJJ

No, you don't.

I am. — AJJ

No, you're not.

This is what you’re doing. — AJJ

No, it's not.

It’s what everyone does all the time. — AJJ

No, it's not.

Not that effective. — AJJ

Very effective.

People still get ill and a train of booster shots is on the cards. — AJJ

No, they don't.

Debatable. — AJJ

No, it's not.

Lots of documented side-effects, some truly awful. — AJJ

No.

Perhaps, but if they do this by reducing viral load and a healthy person’s immune system does this anyway then they’re a superfluous risk for those people. — AJJ

No, it's not superfluous.

It might be *about* the community, but whether they’re overall good for a community is debatable. — AJJ

No, it's not.

See, I can play the disrespectful, inconsiderate, selfish child too. The difference is, you enjoy it and adults don't. Carry on. :roll:

What would be the grounds for such a debate? — Janus

Whether vaccinating the young and healthy on balance helps the vulnerable community enough to warrant the death and debilitation that occurs within the former group.

Whether vaccinating the young and healthy on balance helps the vulnerable community enough to warrant the death and debilitation that occurs within the former group. — AJJ

That question has been answered. The allegations of death and debilitation that supposedly occurs within the former group are tenuous, at best, whereas the aid to the vulnerable community is proven.

But, since we are crunching numbers on human life, let's try this: If the death and debilitation that supposedly occurs within the former group are less, by huge orders of magnitude, than the death and debilitation that occurs in that group from Covid, and if their occupation of hospital beds and their drain on resources kills other people suffering from non-covid related injury or disease, then is it okay to rip the vents out of their yaps and dump their bodies out the hospital window to make room for human beings?

The allegations of death and debilitation that supposedly occurs within the former group are tenuous, at best — James Riley

How so?

whereas the aid to the vulnerable community is proven. — James Riley

Then I find odd the reluctance to provide an answer to my question about why viral loads are supposedly lower in vaccinated individuals compared to unvaccinated asymptomatic (or mildly symptomatic) individuals.

If the death and debilitation that supposedly occurs within the former group are less, by huge orders of magnitude, than the death and debilitation that occurs in that group from Covid, and if their occupation of hospital beds and their drain on resources kills other people suffering from non-covid related injury or disease, then is it okay to rip the vents out of their yaps and dump their bodies out the hospital window to make room for human beings? — James Riley

It’s been long known that young healthy people aren’t particularly troubled by this virus so I’m not getting the intended force of this hypothetical.

What death and debilitation?

The type caused by blood clots, for example. Are you disputing that blood clots are a potential side effect of these vaccines?

How so? — AJJ

Because, like those who challenge Covid deaths based upon comorbidities, any death and debilitation that supposedly occurs within the former group have not been shown to be the result of the vaccine. There were a few allegations of some hearth inflammation, but that has not been proven either. Regardless, even if, the numbers are within a statistical norm for people who didn't get the shot.

Then I find odd the reluctance to provide an answer to my question about why viral loads are supposedly lower in vaccinated individuals compared to unvaccinated asymptomatic (or mildly symptomatic) individuals. — AJJ

You sound like Isaac who likes to find things "odd". Are you sure you are not him? I find it odd that two people in the same thread find so many things to be "odd." In any event, I haven't seen a reluctance t provide an answer to you question about why viral loads are supposedly lower in vaccinated individuals. It could be because we aren't experts in the field.

It’s been long known that young healthy people aren’t particularly troubled by this virus so I’m not getting the intended force of this hypothetical. — AJJ

That's because you have been paying attention. Go to Idaho. Go to any other location where people like you are coming in sick, begging for the vax, taking up beds, getting treated and sometimes saved by medicines that are not fully approved by the FDA, and sometimes dying; all while others are turned away because of the likes of you.

They occur in about 1 in a hundred thousand with Astra Zeneca. I haven't heard of blood-clotting occurring with other vaccines.In contrast I have read estimates of 8 to 10 times greater likelihood of blood-clotting for the unvaccinated covid infected compared with the vaccinated.

Because, like those who challenge Covid deaths based upon comorbidities, any death and debilitation that supposedly occurs within the former group have not been shown to be the result of the vaccine. — James Riley

This in turn casts doubt on the claimed severity of the virus if both sides are inflating the figures in this way. But presumably those numbers will include actual vaccine deaths/injuries just as the others will include actual Covid deaths.

Regardless, even if, the numbers are within a statistical norm for people who didn't get the shot. — James Riley

I’d be interested to see where you’re getting this from.

I find it odd that two people in the same thread find so many things to be "odd." — James Riley

I think it’s a common polite way of telling someone they’re dodging something.

In any event, I haven't seen a reluctance t provide an answer to you question about why viral loads are supposedly lower in vaccinated individuals. It could be because we aren't experts in the field. — James Riley

That’s fine, but it’s a pertinent question and without an answer the claim that a vaccinated individual will be less likely to spread the virus than an unvaccinated asymptomatic one is suspect.

Go to Idaho. Go to any other location where people like you are coming in sick, begging for the vax, taking up beds, getting treated and sometimes saved by medicines that are not fully approved by the FDA, and sometimes dying; all while others are turned away because of the likes of you. — James Riley

Where are you getting this from? It makes no sense according to my own experience of those around me catching the virus. If “young healthy people” in Idaho are as a rule becoming seriously ill then they’re for some reason in the vulnerable category instead.

One example is a runner called Sage Canaday who developed a blood clot after his second Pfizer dose. From what I’ve just gathered it wasn’t confirmed as being caused by the vaccine, which could mean that it wasn’t or that it was and went unreported as such.

This in turn casts doubt on the claimed severity of the virus if both sides are inflating the figures in this way. — AJJ

No, it does not cast doubt. It just shows what a child you are to think so.

But presumably those numbers will include actual vaccine deaths/injuries just as the others will include actual Covid deaths. — AJJ

Go get your advance degree in the area, along with decades of experience. Then you can presume. Until then you are just "odd."

I’d be interested to see where you’re getting this from. — AJJ

Do your research. LOL! You're a researcher, aren't you?

I think it’s a common polite way of telling someone they’re dodging something. — AJJ

I've only seen it from "two" (?) people on this board. You and Isaac. Not so common, at least in my experience. And, since it's my experience, like your experience with covid, I must be right. After all, my curiosity is oh so sincere. Like yours.

That’s fine, but it’s a pertinent question and without an answer the claim that a vaccinated individual will be less likely to spread the virus than an unvaccinated asymptomatic one is suspect. — AJJ

If it's pertinent, then it has been asked and answered by those with the expertise to study and opine on the matter. Do your research. Ask Fauci. That's where I heard it. Google "CDC" and read their site. They are infinately more knowlegable about this and all your questions about it than you will ever be. Or, you could ask Tucker Carlson. I hear he's an expert too.

Where are you getting this from? It makes no sense according to my own experience of those around me catching the virus. If “young healthy people” in Idaho are as a rule becoming seriously ill then they’re for some reason in the vulnerable category instead. — AJJ

You need to do your research. Oh, and asking a bunch of people like me on TPF does not count as research.

Your argument is based on just one case then, not even confirmed to have been caused by the vaccine?

My point is that, regarding blood clots, there’s cause for concern with the other vaccines and we don’t know how many clots are going unreported. I take this same concern to apply to the other side effects also.

So your argument is based on supposed information that is not available? Sounds sensible!

If there are figures showing these side effects are occurring and also anecdotal reports of ones that have gone unreported then this is worth considering when we talk of (I would say unnecessarily) vaccinating the world multiple times.

there’s cause for concern — AJJ

worth considering — AJJ

In a world of such causes and considerations, it's a wonder you aren't hiding under your bed. The electronical that you are using poses a threat, you know. You should research that and let us know what you think. By gum, it's important! Why, I hear tell . . .

(I would say unnecessarily) vaccinating the world multiple times. — AJJ

You, who know nothing about virology, immunology or epidemiology would say "unnecesarily"? On the basis of anecdotes that may or may not be accurate? Are you serious?

You’ve taken a side, and are now out to prove what you want to prove.
— Xtrix

This is what you’re doing. It’s what everyone does all the time. — AJJ

Not even close. On most issues in the real world — ones that haven’t been politicized— we allow the possibility of being wrong, since our identities don’t hinge on it.

Vaccines are effective.
— Xtrix

Not that effective. People still get ill and a train of booster shots is on the cards. — AJJ

Vaccines are very effective against COVID. The fact that people "still get ill" does not detract from this statement. Nor do booster shots.

The odds of a breakthrough infection from COVID are very small, in fact. When breakthroughs do happen, they're much milder. This is what the data show, which you would know if you cared to learn about this instead of trying to prove an anti-vaxxer ideology, which is what you're doing.

Vaccines are safe.
— Xtrix

Debatable. Lots of documented side-effects, some truly awful. — AJJ

It's not debatable -- again, it's a matter of fact. 173 million people have been vaccinated. How many deaths?

Vaccines slow the spread of COVID.
— Xtrix

Perhaps, but if they do this by reducing viral load and a healthy person’s immune system does this anyway then they’re a superfluous risk for those people. — AJJ

They don't.

"Even when the size of the viral loads are similar, the virus behaves differently in the noses and throats of the vaccinated and the unvaccinated."

But again, it's not simply about YOU and your "healthy immune system," even if it were true. Same as with getting an annual flu shot -- I used to think I didn't need one, because I could handle getting sick, until a doctor (rightly) pointed out to me that it's not simply about me.

Even if one is otherwise healthy— it’s not simply about YOU, it’s about the community.
— Xtrix

It might be *about* the community, but whether they’re overall good for a community is debatable. — AJJ

Everything's "debatable." Maybe the Earth is flat too, that's "debatable."

Why you want to debate only some things you don't understand is obvious -- it's because you're part of this anti-vaxxer crowd. Just be brave enough to own up to it. Stop pretending like you're interested in learning anything, and "just asking questions."

These questions have been answered, as a simple Google search will show. There's hundreds of millions of people vaccinated, and plenty of data on this now. Numerous studies. This is why we have the CDC, the WHO, and human beings who specialize in things like diseases and viruses and the immune system -- call them "doctors," "virologists," and "immunologists," if you will. I think it prudent to perhaps listen to what they have to say about this.

The real issue here, as mentioned before, is that you simply don't trust the overwhelming scientific and medical consensus. Fine -- that just means, in my view, that you have terrible instincts. But so be it.

Vaccines are safe, effective, and slow the spread of COVID. That's good for the community, anti-vaxxer "skepticism" (delusions) notwithstanding.

Whether vaccinating the young and healthy on balance helps the vulnerable community enough to warrant the death and debilitation that occurs within the former group. — AJJ

There is no "death and debilitation." You're talking nonsense.

The allegations of death and debilitation that supposedly occurs within the former group are tenuous, at best
— James Riley

How so? — AJJ

Because there's no evidence to support that claim whatsoever. So not only "tenuous," but an outright delusion.

True, I'm sure you can find some freak cases out of hundreds of millions of vaccinations where something is claimed to have gone wrong. I'm sure you can do the same with the polio vaccine, the flu vaccines, the TB shot, etc. Someone died a week later of a heart attack, someone committed suicide, someone got hit by a bus (who knows -- could there be a connection?). Fortunately, anecdotes aren't evidence.

If you're worried about stuff like that, then the answer to your question is a very easy one indeed: everyone should get vaccinated, old and young.

The type caused by blood clots, for example. Are you disputing that blood clots are a potential side effect of these vaccines? — AJJ

Yes. That was one claim about the Johnson and Johnson vaccine, for example, which is not the Pfizer or Moderna vaccine, and it was shown to be extremely infrequent. It has nothing to do with younger people, or their "death and debilitation." So you'll now retract that ridiculous claim, I assume? (Given that you're sincerely just looking to have your questions answered, of course.)

I won't hold my breath.

You, who know nothing about virology, immunology or epidemiology would say "unnecesarily"? On the basis of anecdotes that may or may not be accurate? Are you serious? — Janus

Couldn't have put it better myself.

Vaccines are very effective against COVID — Xtrix

For how long?