Golden Dime rule:
I want others to treat me as I want to be treated, therefore I will treat others as they want to be treated — Yohan

:up: Great manifesto. Where do I sign up? :smile:

:up: Great manifesto. Where do I sign up? :smile: — TheMadFool

No membership required. However, consider purchasing a good plated dime online to serve as a memento.

No membership required. However, consider purchasing a good plated dime online to serve as a memento. — Yohan

Like a serial killer? :scream:

Like a serial killer? :scream: — TheMadFool

Serial killers treat people the way they want to be treated to make them trusting and vulnerable, so that they can eventually treat them as they(the serial killer) wants to treat them.

So maybe the golden rule is better?

2. The Diamond Rule: Do unto others as others would like to do unto themselves (Others define your actions. You do what others want you to do to them. Others are the measure of your actions] — TheMadFool

If taken to extremes this creates problems as well. What if I would like you to have sex with me? Are you duty bound to do so? Or perhaps I’m narcissistic and think you should greet me by bowing when I enter the room, and bid me farewell by kissing my ass on the way out. Is that acceptable?

As an alternative, let’s try the Platinum Rule: Treat others however you want, but adjust your behavior when asked to do so (trial and error).

If taken to extremes this creates problems as well. What if I would like you to have sex with me? Are you duty bound to do so? Or perhaps I’m narcissistic and think you should greet me by bowing when I enter the room, and bid me farewell by kissing my ass on the way out. Is that acceptable?

As an alternative, let’s try the Platinum Rule: Treat others however you want, but adjust your behavior when asked to do so (trial and error). — Pinprick

:lol:

Rules are meant for everyone. The narcissist who wants people to bow before faer and kiss faer ass must consider the fact that other people don't want to bow to faer or kiss faer ass. Thus, a narcissist shouldn't demand such things.

Morality is based on the recognition of the value/sacredness of life.

Rules are meant for everyone. The narcissist who wants people to bow before faer and kiss faer ass must consider the fact that other people don't want to bow to faer or kiss faer ass. Thus, a narcissist shouldn't demand such things. — TheMadFool

This doesn’t seem to jive with the Diamond Rule though, at least as you’ve described it, or perhaps as I’ve (mis)understood it.

If we’re to let others define our actions, that holds us accountable for treating them the way they want to be treated independent of how we actually want to treat them. I don’t see where the obligation of the narcissist to consider others wants when he decides how he wants to be treated is derived from.

This doesn’t seem to jive with the Diamond Rule though, at least as you’ve described it, or perhaps as I’ve (mis)understood it.

If we’re to let others define our actions, that holds us accountable for treating them the way they want to be treated independent of how we actually want to treat them. I don’t see where the obligation of the narcissist to consider others wants when he decides how he wants to be treated is derived from. — Pinprick

Perhaps we can compare the golden rule with the diamond rule to see how they stack up against each other.

First off, understand rules are meant for everyone.

1. The golden rule is formulated on the preferences of the person who wants to know how fae should act towards another person. Put simply, your personal idiosyncracies and peculiarities will manifest in your actions i.e. if you're of unsound mind (sick) you might hurt people e.g. a masochist might go around inflicting pain (most people avoid pain).

2. The diamond rule is crafted to circumvent the problem of the golden rule - your personal quirks won't be something other people have to deal with. This rule essentially treats people the way they wanted to be treated. So, yes a narcissist may want you to treat faer in odd ways but he can't demand it of you because fae has to act in ways that you want and you want to be treated with respect, the normal kind, and so won't want to constantly bow and kiss ass.

Morality is based on the recognition of the value/sacredness of life. — EnPassant

:up: You should've told me this about 20 years ago! I wouldn't have made as many mistakes as I have. :sad:

Ok, but why does the person’s wants the narcissist encounters trump his own? The narcissist demands X (ass kissing), the other person demands Y (respect), but only Y is honored.

Ok, but why does the person’s wants the narcissist encounters trump his own? The narcissist demands X (ass kissing), the other person demands Y (respect), but only Y is honored. — Pinprick

Good question. X wants ass-kissing and Y wants no ass-kissing. So, what happens when the two of them meet? X would think, I can't let Y kiss my ass. Y would think, I have to kiss X's ass. This'll happen: Y will try and kiss X's ass but X won't let Y kiss ass. Both are happy!

Ironically, I think a lot of the world's problems are due to people trying to 'help' others by meddling and violating the will of other people.
So first, mind your own business. Then, only help those that can't help themselves, and want to be helped. And even then, aim at helping them help themselves.

You should've told me this about 20 years ago! I wouldn't have made as many mistakes as I have. :sad: — TheMadFool

I'm paraphrasing Simone Weil. It is obvious when you think about it!

Morality is based on the recognition of the value/sacredness of life. — EnPassant

To be honest, when I read this I felt the same way as a famished homeless person would have felt when fae finds a half-eaten 2-day-old hotdog at the end of a desperate hour of going through the trash. Mayhaps it's just an illusion but still, I quite like that feeling. :smile:

Good question. X wants ass-kissing and Y wants no ass-kissing. So, what happens when the two of them meet? X would think, I can't let Y kiss my ass. Y would think, I have to kiss X's ass. This'll happen: Y will try and kiss X's ass but X won't let Y kiss ass. Both are happy! — TheMadFool

:lol:

But seriously, the narcissist can’t both want Y to kiss his ass, and not want Y to do so. You’re assuming X wants to treat Y as Y wants to be treated, but that isn’t the case. It results in an imbalance. Y gets what Y wants (respect), but X doesn’t.

Maybe in cases like these, where how one wants to be treated conflicts with how someone else wants to be treated, the Golden Rule should be used as a Plan B? X doesn’t want to be forced to kiss someone’s ass, so shouldn’t force Y to do so. Problem solved!

del

@Pinprick

You're on the right track.

A few points:

1. Rules, their raison de'tre, is to achieve some kind of order and one requirement for that is a rule must either apply across the board or to the majority. Let's keep it real and ignore the rare/impossible - the former - and focus our energies on the latter (rules must apply and make sense to the majority).

If so, given the majority seems to express identical or very similar likes/dislikes, formulating a rule seems feasible.

That, however, isn't what I want to discuss. Once we concentrate our efforts on a (moral) rule for the majority, the minority is being deliberately sidelined, ignored i.e. the few oddballs that exist in every group, community, or society are to be taken out of the moral equation. Ergo, trying to critique/fault the golden rule or the diamond rule using masochism and narcissism respectively is to misunderstand the rationale behind such rules. They were never designed for ALL, they were crafted for the MAJORITY, the underlying assumption being most people have a good handle on morality. To hell with the minority, they don't matter! seems to be the rather rude sentiment being expressed herein.

Given what I said above, which of the two rules (the golden rule/the diamond rule) is the better?

The golden rule presupposes that

1. A person X belong to the majority and possesses an adequate understanding of right and wrong

2. The person X is dealing with another person Y who too is in the majority and has knowledge of good and evil that deserves a passing grade.

Isn't that why X decides how to act towards Y based on X's own feelings/beliefs/etc.? This is the essence of the golden rule.

So far so good.

Let's see how the diamond rule fares.

2. The diamond rule, at the very least, makes no assumptions about ourselves. Indeed, you maybe the most erudite moral theorist in the whole god damn world but all that means zero for the diamond rule. What matters is how other people want done unto them.

At this juncture, it must be pointed out that the diamond rule is the mirror image of the golden rule; one treats the self as the benchmark of conduct, the other considers others as the same. Insofar as the majority and how that notion is based on identity/similarity of those in that section of the population is concerned, there's no difference between someone using the golden rule and another person adhering to the diamond rule.

3. However, what's special about the diamond rule is it acknolwedges the minority - the oddities, the quirks that define minorities. For instance, a person who's following the diamond rule is making the statement "you may be different" when fae meets a masochist/narcissist; after all, the diamond rule is about how others may want to be treated.

The golden rule fails in this respect.

I think it's only Christianity that states the Golden in the positive. I think it's less confusing stated in the negative.

Golden
In the same way that you don't want to be harmed, you yourself should refrain from harming others.

Diamond
In the same way that you don't want people to ignore your preferences, you yourself should not ignore the preferences of others.

In this case, the diamond rule seems to clarify what not harming entails. It entails paying attention to other people's specific needs or preferences.

It entails paying attention to other people's specific needs or preferences. — Yohan

It could be useful but sometimes “good intentions” don’t matter at all and even the other person can feel intimidated for asking some questions.
I guess the diamond rule can fit better if we just respect other’s privacy and businesses

Moral behavior is performative, not a science. But of course, like most principles, you can always find a way to push them and distort the point.