• D2OTSSUMMERBUG
    40
    First, given the inference that the limit of current computational technology, in whatever form, lies in the boundary of precedented instructions or symbolic languages set by humans, what might be the cause of, if there exists, the creativity of AI? An analogy to a human kid undergoing academic education would help understand this inquiry: the academic ability of this kid used to be completely dependent on what the teachers offered, as the kid had no other sources of information or techniques. It kept on being such a way as the kid gained more and more knowledge, but at a certain point, the kid encountered a problem that none of what the teachers taught suffices to solve. Will it be possible for a “Eureka” moment when the kid started doing something that none of the teachers perceived as having either taught or seen before – and the kid solved it? What is this something “unprecedented”? What triggers it? Is it some extreme cases of hardly-traceable extrapolation from what the kid has been instructed, or is some intelligence or reasoning a priori that allowed the actual breakthrough from the boundary of previous educations? As for AI, does the structure of neural networks imply some kind of existence in it of reason a priori? Does the man-made intelligence itself need to understand what it is doing, rather than being the person in the Chinese Room to come up with such innovation? These are all questions worthy to investigate, especially out of the concern for artists and musicians. For if the AI “innovation” belongs to the unordinary cases of extrapolation, then the “innovation” is only an irregular projection of human intellectual achievement. But if otherwise, that AI does have reason a priori, the whole notion of art is facing fundamental reformation.
    1. Where does the creativity of AI come from? (2 votes)
        Novel inference from existed information.
        50%
        Intelligence that rather resemble that of human.
          0%
        Something else that I'm ignorant about.
        50%
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    Creative AI simply means there's an algorithm for creativity. Here's one: SCAMPER TECHNIQUE
  • D2OTSSUMMERBUG
    40

    I'm afraid I cannot arrive at an immediate agreement on this one. It is true that asking ourselves the questions in SCAMPER facilitates the activation of our creativity, but actually deriving the answers is what requires actual creativity. Using the same example as in the website: Supposing that the front-facing camera is not yet created, and you think: "what use is not yet adapted to the smartphone, but would be useful?" Then you came up with the idea "I can put a camera to the front". But how do you jump from the question to the resolution? You can justify with that "I observed that people like to take pictures of themselves, but they wouldn't be able to see what they are picturing with the screen turned away from them, so putting a camera in the same direction as the screen's would help." But what has led you to jump to considering selfies taking when the primary question is "how to improve the features of my cell phone?" It is the ability to somehow establish an unprecedented connection between multiple things that you know independently. Can any algorithm do that? I'd say if you could write out every step of how your thought switched from place A to B -- which I am unable to do.
  • hope
    216
    Where does the creativity of AI come from?D2OTSSUMMERBUG

    There is no AI because intelligence doesn't exist. It's just a process.

    Storing sense data as memory and then comparing current sense data to past memory in order to predict and therefore act "intelligently" which is really just 'predictively'. and the only reason this is needed is because our bodies are too weak to survive without it.

    We have to predict because we are so very weak.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    I don't see any difficulty. SCAMPER is a method i.e. a way to be creative and that in the coder's universe translates to algorithm.
  • D2OTSSUMMERBUG
    40

    I think we have a slip here in taking the concept of creativity. What I meant here, as well as in the OP was whether creativity can emerge by itself out of intellect, be it natural or artificial. SCAMPER can definitely be encoded in whatever ways into computers, as in the OP, instructions, but the point is whether computers can go beyond that. I would not take for granted that the answers to the SCAMPER questions can be formed via mere algorithms. From the limited experience I have in computer science, most of the programs that I saw or made only involved commanding the computer "In such and such condition, do this", but not asking the computer "now I have this and this situation, what's next?". We ask these questions to ourselves and translate the answer into codes so when another person has the same question, the computer can give the answer - but NOT ITS answer, right?
  • D2OTSSUMMERBUG
    40

    Weakly phrased my OP is, but I would consider your point as the first case that it discussed - creativity as a result of pre-existing instructions.
  • fishfry
    2.6k
    Where does the creativity of AI come from?D2OTSSUMMERBUG

    An algorithm can never be creative. In particular, there is no hope whatsoever that the current big data and machine learning approach to AI can ever achieve creativity. The current approach is entirely based on datamining and statistical analysis of things that have already happened.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k


    Creativity requires imagination. Is there an algorithm for imagination? What is imagination? It's obvious that much of what we call creative works have to do with vision (painting) and hearing (music) and AI has made tentative first steps in both these domains, more in the latter than in the former presumably.



  • D2OTSSUMMERBUG
    40

    That was the point of my discussion there. Is the apparent "creativity" forever a mere reflection of humans' own creativity through algorithms on the machines, or can the new structure of computers - not von Neumann but of neural networks - break itself through the wires of algorithms, just like the imaginary kid I mentioned in the OP (whom I did not assume to have complete been innovative either)?
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    As you can see from the video links I provided in the previous post, AI seems capable of creativity but there's something about there output, paintings & music, that's off. This is not so apparent in the painting of course but read the lyrics of the Eurovision song. It doesn't make sense or one has to work really hard for it to connect at an emotional and also a rational level. Truth be told it seems to make more sense to our hearts than our brains. Artists are said to be more feelings than reason. scientists are thought to be the opposite. :chin:

    Semantic coherence (SC) is what I'm getting at. SC simply means the words, the sentences, the whole composition (essay, song, etc.) has to cohere i.e. they should all come together to produce a unit of meaning. This seems to be lacking in the AI-composed Eurovision song.
  • fishfry
    2.6k
    not von Neumann but of neural networksD2OTSSUMMERBUG

    Neural nets run on conventional computers. They're a clever way of organizing data mining, but they are not a new paradigm of computation. They are physical implementations of Turing machines, in fact finite state machines. The hardware they run on is perfectly ordinary, off-the-shelf. There is no computational difference between a neural net and your laptop; or, for that matter, the 386 machines of the 1990's.

    There is so much AI hype out there it needs to be countered. This subject is on my mind because just last night I heard this guy on the radio.

    The Myth of Artificial Intelligence
    Why Computers Can’t Think the Way We Do
    Erik J. Larson
    .
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    In continuation, AI creativity seems to be missing the wood for the trees and it's telling (no?) how many real people make this mistake.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    Is the apparent "creativity" forever a mere reflection of humans' own creativity through algorithms on the machines, or can the new structure of computers [...]D2OTSSUMMERBUG

    The utlimate test of creativity is to create something equally creative. In other words, when humans create something that's as human as any real human (in the sense creative and also in other ways) we've reached an, one, endpoint of creativity. The next goal, the follow-up move, is to create something that's more creative than us (technological singularity).

    Sorry for the multiple posts.
  • D2OTSSUMMERBUG
    40


    It doesn't make sense or one has to work really hard for it to connect at an emotional and also a rational level.TheMadFool

    Yes, from the lyrics, I do find the program to be semantically incapable (assuming that it is not smart enough to form a new way of using words to communicate that humans do not understand). But derailing from the discussion, as a rock fan I have to point out that the lyrics of Nirvana and Radiohead are somewhat incoherent too lol.

    The next goal, the follow-up move, is to create something that's more creative than us (technological singularity).TheMadFool

    I would say the OP was developing toward this question without pointing it out: Can we ultimately make something more creative than we are?

    P.S. No need to feel apologetic. I've had some of my best conversations in this forum. I'd like it if they added a like button function though for remarks that I don't have an immediate response to.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    It doesn't make sense or one has to work really hard for it to connect at an emotional and also a rational level.
    — TheMadFool

    Yes, from the lyrics, I do find the program to be semantically incapable (assuming that it is not smart enough to form a new way of using words to communicate that humans do not understand). But derailing from the discussion, as a rock fan I have to point out that the lyrics of Nirvana and Radiohead are somewhat incoherent too lol
    D2OTSSUMMERBUG

    Yes, that was part of the message I wished to convey! Some people are very AI-like or, even better, AI has passed the Turing state completely or partially depending on how human Kurt Cobain was.

    I would say the OP was developing toward this question without pointing it out: Can we ultimately make something more creative than we are?D2OTSSUMMERBUG

    So, you're the mysterious type, huh? The audience has to figure out what you wanna say. Ok by me.

    Well, there's a paradox we need to work out. Remember, as per received wisdom, life emerged from inanimate matter and it was simple back then and by back then I mean 4.5 billion years ago (I hope I got that right). In other words, the simple produced, by accident scientists maintain, the complex. A creative entity producing another entity more creative then itself then seems possible and if time permits and it does also inevitable.

    However, humans haven't been able to achieve this "simple" task. Hence the paradox.
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