That, at the very least, would require the person doing the translating being better at English than average. — Benkei

Then I could translate Gormans speech using Google Translate.

That said, I'm obviously less qualified to comment on such experience than other Americans, but more qualified to comment on it than you do on the Netherlands. — Benkei

We're not talking about an event that happened in the Netherlands. We taking about an event that happened in America that is translated to other languages, not just Dutch, dumb-ass.

Then I could translate Gormans speech using Google Translate. — Harry Hindu

Yeah, one wonders why we bother with translators at all. :roll: Sigh. Of course Google translate isn't sufficient. What part of my comment even remotely suggests this to be my point when the entire complaint was her skill was insufficient? Not absent, but insufficient, lacking, not good enough.

We're not talking about an event that happened in the Netherlands. We taking about an event that happened in America that is translated to other languages, not just Dutch, dumb-ass. — Harry Hindu

I know and that's how my comment should be read. I can comment on the US experience because I'm intimately familiar with its language and familiar with its culture and history because I read local, untranslated sources. You don't know shit about the Netherlands and even on this narrow subject failed to get your facts straight, first by basing yourself on a few foreign news sources and then failing to know Rijneveld doesn't publish in English. Maybe just accept you don't know what you're talking about for once.

I can comment on the US experience because I'm intimately familiar with its language and familiar with its culture and history because I read local, untranslated sources. — Benkei

Then any white person in America that knows Dutch should be able to translate it.

If you think that you would have even been considered to translate the speech, one look at your pale-white skin and you're automatically disqualified.

Have they found a replacement? With all those other names you provided you would think that they would have found a replacement by now. I still can't find any evidence of what your claiming. Other sites say they same thing - that it was about Rijneveld's skin color.

You don't know shit about the Netherlands and even on this narrow subject failed to get your facts straight, first by basing yourself on a few foreign news sources and then failing to know Rijneveld doesn't publish in English. — Benkei

Again, we're talking about events that happened in the US, not the Netherlands, that need to be translated into Dutch. So me knowing anything about the Netherlands is irrelevant. What is relevant is that the Netherlands seems to be having a tough time finding someone that can translate the spoken word of a black American.

It wasn't MY facts. It was CNNs, which you claimed to be incomplete, not wrong. (Then Trump was correct when he called CNN "Fake News"?) So all your other qualifiers that you claim Rijneveld doesn't have are irrelevant because if you don't have dark skin, all those other qualifications mean zilch.

Then any white person in America that knows Dutch should be able to translate it. — Harry Hindu

I never said that and again you're trying to make it about colour. I've made it very clear that experience with the subject matter is important. Learn to read. I'm done. Bye.

never said that and again you're trying to make it about colour. — Benkei

No. I'm not. I'm asking why CNN and all the other sites are making it about color, and why you can't provide evidence to the contrary (because there isn't any).

https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/books/story/2021-03-22/amanda-gorman-hill-we-climb-translation-backlash-sparks-controversy?_amp=true

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/books/2021/mar/06/marieke-lucas-rijneveld-writes-poem-about-amanda-gorman-furore

Ah, those two articles basing themselves on a single opinion piece from the Netherlands. Fantastic. You're such a cunt, you know that? You have no clue about what was being said on social media as I've repeatedly said, but you refuse to look into and are too fucking arrogant to accept you simply don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Here's another opinion piece: https://www.parool.nl/columns-opinie/telkens-wordt-steekhoudende-kritiek-van-mensen-van-kleur-weggezet-als-identiteitspolitiek~b537371c7/

Gorman positioneert zich nadrukkelijk als iemand met een natuurlijk bewustzijn van haar plek in de voortdurende strijd van zwart Amerika. Een bewustzijn, geworteld in persoonlijke historie, ervaringsdeskundigheid en kennis, dat zij onmiskenbaar deelt met zwarte dichters overzee. Zaïre Krieger bijvoorbeeld, of Babs Gons, net als Gorman spokenwordartiesten, voor wie de geschreven tekst zich voegt naar het ritme en de cadans van het gesproken woord. Relevant, evenals hun tweetaligheid, aangezien Rijneveld zichzelf (oergeestig) ‘de Louis van Gaal van de letteren’ noemt qua beheersing van het Engels. Het is dus flauw de critici huidskleurobsessie te verwijten, terwijl zij overduidelijk doelen op zeer specifieke ervaring en vakkennis van zwarte dichters in relatie tot Gormans werk.

Dat besefte Meulenhoff zelf ook, want de uitgever wilde ‘sensitivityreaders’ inzetten. Een lachwekkende term, waarmee feitelijk werd erkend dat er (vermoedelijk zwarte) meelezers nodig zouden zijn die een grotere affiniteit hebben met de materie, om tot de beste vertaling te komen. Die mochten dan achterin de bus meekijken: gênant, maar ook peak ‘progressief’ Nederland. — Johan Fretz

Gorman positioneert zich nadrukkelijk als iemand met een natuurlijk bewustzijn van haar plek in de voortdurende strijd van zwart Amerika. — Johan Fretz

Het is dus flauw de critici huidskleurobsessie te verwijten, terwijl zij overduidelijk doelen op zeer specifieke ervaring en vakkennis van zwarte dichters in relatie tot Gormans werk. — Johan Fretz

Why are you making it about skin color?

What's the matter, Netherlands have too much white privilege to find an qualified candidate to translate a speech made by a black woman in Amerika?

voor wie de geschreven tekst zich voegt naar het ritme en de cadans van het gesproken woord. — Johan Fretz

LOL, the written word is read at the pace of the reader, not at the pace of the speaker that is being translated. "Spoken-word-artist"? Phhhah! Art is in the eye of the beholder.

Why Nos is actually right:

Identity politics is ultimately at odds with a social justice agenda. Social justice can only be achieved through broad social solidarity. The more we pit ourselves against one another, the more impotent we become.

Those who draw you to focus on white vs black are appealing to your base, fearful nature. They're inviting you to turn away from the only path to truly improving things. They're leading you to give up because "it's always been this way.'. Roll in your victimhood.

Who stands to lose if you embrace social solidarity? The elite. They need for you to believe that only money is power.

If a hit man is hired and he kills somebody, the hit man goes to jail. But not only does the hit man go to jail, but the person who hired them does. It was an attack carried out on Jan. 6 and a hit man sent them. — US Capitol Police Sgt. Harry Dunn

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/5374754001

Wait, who sent who? The hit man is the one that is sent to make the hit, but on Jan. 6th the hit man is the one that sent them? Who did the hit man send, if it wasn't the hit man? Typically inconsistent gibberish made by those that are motivated not by truth, but by politics. :roll:

And isn't there supposed to be a money trail between the hit man and who sends the hit man? Very poor analogy made here, but what would you expect from those driven by hate and not truth?

The person you quoted should take some computer programming courses so that they understand how to use language in a more consistent manner. :lol:

Why Nos is actually right:

Identity politics is ultimately at odds with a social justice agenda. Social justice can only be achieved through broad social solidarity. The more we pit ourselves against one another, the more impotent we become.

Those who draw you to focus on white vs black are appealing to your base, fearful nature. They're inviting you to turn away from the only path to truly improving things. They're leading you to give up because "it's always been this way.'. Roll in your victimhood.

Who stands to lose if you embrace social solidarity? The elite. They need for you to believe that only money is power. — frank

Well put, Franky.

Do you see yourself in people of other races?
— frank

Absolutely. Maybe you haven't heard: Humans share over 99% of their DNA. Focusing on the small differences, which are just surface level, just shows how shallow you are. — Harry Hindu

So what changed your mind, Frank, in the past 5 months?

A little context certainly helps.

Insurrection: an act or instance of revolting against civil authority or an established government.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_revolutions_and_rebellions

I wonder what 180 thinks of the Bolshevik insurrection, the French and American insurrections of the 18th century, etc.

And isn't there supposed to be a money trail between the hit man and who sends the hit man? — Harry Hindu

That’s the saddest part, Trump didn’t do jack for his base and none of the wealthy who scored big under his administration stormed the capital.

Wait, who sent who? The hit man is the one that is sent to make the hit, but on Jan. 6th the hit man is the one that sent them? Who did the hit man send, if it wasn't the hit man? Typically inconsistent gibberish made by those that are motivated not by truth, but by politics. — Harry Hindu

I read this as your failure to understand English. Inasmuch as you seem to understand English, your criticism must based on something else. Given your invective and argument, that must be hate. If not hate, please make explicit what.

So what changed your mind, Frank, in the past 5 months? — Harry Hindu

It's like why is string theory right? bla bla. Why is string theory wrong? anti-bla anti-bla.

Apparently, all that philosophically sub-literate "computer programming" hasn't done shit for your reading comprehension or reasoning skills. :sweat:

Well put, Franky.

That’s the saddest part, Trump didn’t do jack for his base and none of the wealthy who scored big under his administration stormed the capital. — praxis

At least Putin had a fun time. Must have reminded him of his old job heading the FSB.

And isn't there supposed to be a money trail between the hit man and who sends the hit man? Very poor analogy made here, but what would you expect from those driven by hate and not truth? — Harry Hindu

How do you ask about a money trail and then complain about an analogy? The criteria for an analogy isn't a one for one literal comparison. Why not just make a needless personal attack without injecting additional ignorance. It's too much of a give away.

There was a white girl and she looked to adults as to what to do with her life. Most adult women were stay at home mums, nurses, librarians and school teachers. Nobody told her she can be anything. Her teacher didn't question why women or mums, nurses, librarians and school teachers. That's just how things were. The teacher thought mathematics, chemistry and physics weren't important to the girl considering where she was going. The girl became a nurse.

There was a black boy and he looked up to adults as to what to do with his life. Adult black men were slaves. The boy became a slave.

There is a white girl and she looks to adults as to what to do with her life. Most adult women still are stay at home mums, nurses, librarians and school teachers. Meanwhile, media portrayal of girls has changed; they are protagonists in stories, heroines, smart and beat boys regularly. Her parents tell her that what she sees isn't the way the world has to be; "you can be whatever you like honey". Her teacher knows what girls usually become but he/she too believes she can be whatever she can be. assume where she'll end up and discovers she happens to be really good at mathematics, chemistry and physics. The teacher also discovers girls learn differently then boys. The teacher changes how she teaches and the girl blossoms. She becomes a mum, with a Ph.D. in linear algebra teaching at university.

If the parents or the teacher didn't realise what the world looked like to the girl, precisely because she is a girl, and actively engaged her to allow her to have a different view from what is, she never would've gotten there (we're not all Marie Curie!).

Now what to do about that black boy? Society and media still tell him he's "less" than white boys. Black men overwhelmingly have lower paying jobs. The only way out seems to be rap or athleticism. Stories with black heroes are rare, criminals are predominantly played by non-whites, in fact, representation of black people is often about race because non-whites apparently are incapable of having universal experiences (notable exceptions exist of course!).

People suggesting to ignore this boy's view of the world by ignoring that he's in fact black are not helping him. If you want to improve his chances, you need to realise what the world looks like to him, as a black boy, and actively engage him (e.g. going the extra mile to undo all the socio-economic damage he grows up in) to allow him to have a different view from what is. And while you're doing that you also need to teach him how to deal with the racist fucks still out there and those that think ignoring that he's clearly black is in any way, shape or form helping to change society for the better.

Not talking about the problem does not make it go away. Slavery didn't disappear because people stopped pretending there were slaves.

It's like why is string theory right? bla bla. Why is string theory wrong? anti-bla anti-bla. — frank

So string theory is what changed your mind? I don't get it. Is string theory right or wrong? It can't be both, but it has to be one.

How do you ask about a money trail and then complain about an analogy? The criteria for an analogy isn't a one for one literal comparison. Why not just make a needless personal attack without injecting additional ignorance. It's too much of a give away. — Cheshire

The analogy states that the person who hired them should go to jail too.

Talk about needless personal attacks...

I read this as your failure to understand English. Inasmuch as you seem to understand English, your criticism must based on something else. Given your invective and argument, that must be hate. If not hate, please make explicit what. — tim wood

Not hate. Logic. Given what you said, I don't expect you to understand the difference.

That’s the saddest part, Trump didn’t do jack for his base and none of the wealthy who scored big under his administration stormed the capital. — praxis

The same can be said of Biden, who's been in power for 50 years, hasn't done jack for minorities except insult them, yet they keep voting for the promises made by the Democratic party. The only promises kept by either party is that they keep making you out to be the victim of someone else.

This is what I've been saying for awhile now and is the foundation of the problem as stated by - politics - dividing people based on identity and then making people think that everyone else that doesn't share your identity is out to get you. It's no different than religion. In fact, many religions make their followers out to be victims and most political arguments contain the same logical errors as religious arguments.

Abolish political parties and religions. Abolish group-think. Focusing on the things that make us different from one another and using it as an ideological weapon against each other is the status quo. If you are truly progressive then stop voting for the same people and groups that put us in this state of hate.

Emotion traps people. We want there to be recognition of racial bias in society so that DAs can't get away with just ignoring the murders of black men like Ahmaud Arbery.

But emotion clicks in and says that all white people are complicit, which isn't true, but it satisfies a bruised, frustrated heart to say it, and we just forget the more abysmal truth.

So string theory is what changed your mind? I don't get it. Is string theory right or wrong? It can't be both, but it has to be one. — Harry Hindu

There's two sides to the coin.

For me it’s not about ignoring phenotypes—an impossibility unless one is blind—but about refusing to make assumptions from them. One cannot assume someone’s experience, character, beliefs, desires, etc. from the fact of these phenotypes. “This man has such-and-such phenotypes, therefor he has this-or-that experience, behavior, beliefs, and so on”, is the logic of racism and other forms of prejudice, and I see no reason to continue using it.

One must use other means of discovery in order to better apprehend the truth about an individual, anyways. The fact of a boy’s phenotype doesn’t permit some white man to “actively engage him”, nor does it give the white man the authority “to allow him to have a different view from what is”. Like experience, beliefs, character, one can only discover whether another needs or even wants a white man’s help and blessings through basic communication and observation, not through making assumptions on the basis of race, which are specious classifications in any case.

@NOS4A2

Yeah, you just have a history of allying yourself with those who welcome racists with open arms. It makes it hard to take anything you say about race seriously. One suspects an ulterior motive, but one isn't interested enough to follow up on the suspicion.

the foundation of the problem... — Harry Hindu

... isn't identity politics, it's politicizing some issue, and that can be done with practically anything. Currently popular is vaccination vs antivaccination. Many Trumpian antivac supporters are themselves vaccinated, though they may decline to admit it, inanely claiming HIPAA rights violations or whatever, and apparently could care less if a portion of their followers die from not being vaccinated.

Even if there were a significant risk with getting vaccinated, shouldn't Trumpian "conservatives" be willing to take a health risk in order to get the economy going full-steam? Isn't that what a brave patriot would do for their nation's economy? That seemed to be their courageous logic at the beginning of the pandemic. How did it get turned around? If you have no actual principles and are merely a group-thinking follower, the Trumps of the world can make you dance like a mindless puppet on strings.