• Jack Cummins

    I can accept what you are saying and we are indeed so different. Obviously, our philosophies are connected to our basic sense of self, but it does possibly show how our own psychologies come into play in our thinking. Each of us comes with a subjective life, and this is involved and evolves during our engagement with others, as well as our being the starting point for the development of our construction of philosophies about everything in life. We cannot really escape the self while we are alive.
  • Andrew4Handel
    If there were no selves no one would know a reality exists. Knowing only happens because we are selves.

    "Objectivity is the view from nowhere" Thomas Nagel.
  • Andrew4Handel
    Many things are reliant upon self including language, perception, dreams, illusions and music.

    A unified perception is a cluster of different things like shapes, molecules and colours that become united to the perceiver as an object.

    Reality would be just confused mess of random incoherent experiences or unperceived interactions without united perception.

    An illusion requires a self to be subject to the illusion. Consciousness and and self denying positions just hold back the study of phenomena usually for ideological reasons. Other than the claims that consciousness and self are illusory there are the tactics of mischaracterising the phenomena and semantic games to also stunt the progress of investigation.
  • Pop
    If there were no selves no one would know a reality exists. Knowing only happens because we are selves.Andrew4Handel

    This sounds intuitively correct, like the Earth being flat, but it has logical problems.

    Any sort of self concept must arise as a product of understanding, where understanding is a body of integrated information . So a "self" comes after the fact, once a body of information is already established, so is not a primal entity. It is an emergent psychological entity in evolutionary psychology:

    The Symbolic Self in Evolutionary Context

    " Our central thesis in this article is that the symbolic self
    is an adaptation. That is, we argue that the symbolic self is a
    broad-based capacity that was selected and distributed in the
    human population because of its high adaptive significance."

    The self is so embedded in the psychology of modern humanity. The idea that it is a self that integrates information, and thus has thoughts is central to modern thought - "I think therefore I am" - But the "I" is an evolutionary adaptation. At some point in our evolution it did not exist, but we had thoughts just the same.

    If self awareness is an emergent aspect of consciousness, then so too must be a self concept.
  • Pop
    more unconscious activity going on than conscious— leaving aside more complex behavior, which is itself largely unconscious (though it does vary).
    — Xtrix
    There’s nothing to be convinced of— it’s a simple fact.
    — Xtrix
    :100: :up:[/quote]

    Unconscious doesn’t have to mean automatic and split off from consciousness. Enactive, embodied approaches to cognition reveal the body as integrated with mind in a complex and inseparable fashionJoshs

    In the driving example, something pays attention to driving even when one believes he is not, and that something is the very same person who believes he is not paying attention to driving.NOS4A2

    It is curious how we are able to accept that information self organizes everywhere else but in the human brain. :chin: though neuroplasticity tells us exactly this.

    See my post above.
  • Andrew4Handel
    Any sort of self concept must arise as a product of understanding,Pop

    Self is not a concept though.

    The concept of self is a concept but that goes for everything. Everything can be described in conceptual terms.

    We have experiences and try and conceptualise them but the experience require a self. We can reach this conclusion after starting to experience and seeing its necessity.

    Phrases like "Self concept" and "Sense of self" beg the question. they already assume what they claim. I describe self as an experience.

    However my argument was about how to have a coherent unified perception which must be had in front of an observer. That is not an intuition it is a logical necessity. If 5 people saw different parts of an object they may not be able to identify that object without communicating with each other. Information is integrated in front of the perceiver/thinker. Self is like pain though it is entirely first person and direct knowledge of it is had.
  • Andrew4Handel
    Here's an example. Who is the person you know the most about?

    The answer is you. It is self knowledge. Among the things you know is your thoughts, dreams feelings, how hot you feel, how cold you feel, your pains etc. The idea you have equal knowledge of someone else is implausible.

    Harold Shipman was one of histories most prolific serial killers. His wife slept next to him in the bed for years without knowing his murderous secrets. He was apparently the only person who knew about his rampage. This private knowledge doesn't make sense without a self.

    If something is truly unconscious no one knows about it and it is unavailable to consciousness and nothing can be said about. Unconscious knowledge doesn't make sense.
  • Pop
    The answer is you. It is self knowledgeAndrew4Handel

    It is generally accepted that what makes human consciousness distinct from lesser forms of consciousness is self awareness. At some stage we evolved from this lesser form to a "self" aware form.

    Skim the paper it is quite interesting. It is a mind bender for sure!

    If something is truly unconscious no one knows about it and it is unavailable to consciousnessAndrew4Handel

    Consciousness is information integration. Information integrates on its own everywhere.
  • Amity
    With regard to how I wrote about the idea of fearing doing 'badly' on the site, I will admit that this connects to my own fears of failure and rejection.Jack Cummins

    I am glad you seem to be taking some time out, so please DO NOT REPLY to this, it isn't necessary.
    Even one of the silly emoticons will do, if you want :smile:

    Re: failure and fear.
    I've added something to the 'Stuff' thread:

    You can also see the time and development aspects of the self, as we adapt to life changes in the film.
    Philosophy is out there and everywhere. TPF is just a small drop in the ocean.

    Best wishes.
  • Jack CumminsAccepted Answer

    Thanks for your entry, and I am just letting you and others know that I am really taking a bit of time out because my mum is in hospital. However, I can't go to visit her daily due to Covid_19 restrictions. So, I am logging onto the site but will probably have much less participation for a while. But, I am continuing to read the replies on the threads and I am glad that the thread is still going for any people who are still interested.
  • Amity
    ...I am really taking a bit of time out because my mum is in hospital.Jack Cummins

    Sorry to hear about this difficult time for you and your Mum.
    It is good that you are able to be near and to show that you care, even if visits are limited.
    This kind of reality hits home and can put things into perspective.
    A time to reflect on who and what is important.
    Threads can go to hell and back.
    But sometimes - this place can be a welcome distraction.
    Do what feels right for you.
    Time to be kind to your body and mind. Find the balance. All the better to help your Mum and any others.
    Best wishes :sparkle:
  • Jack Cummins

    Thanks, and life can be so difficult at times, throwing us into all kinds of philosophy conundrums. I plan to have some interaction on this site, even while my mother is ill and in hospital, although it is lower on my priorities.
    I do believe though, that the harshest lessons in life are probably the ones which give us the most scope for learning. I am not sure that life is meant to be easy at all, aside from any particular viewpoint which we may choose to adopt, to make sense of it all. But, I realise that it is a matter of perspective entirely and how the abstract entity known as the self is present as an essential factor in any such interpretation of life experience. This also is related to how we view the importance of self in relation to any larger cosmic order.

    As regards to the self, I also believe that we need a certain amount of sense of humour and need to try not to take our own selves too seriously. My own funniest dream , a couple of weeks ago, was one in which I saw all my own threads on this site, lying as long pieces of curled up pieces of paper on the floor, next to my bed, almost like scrolls.
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