Why is the misgendering of people so commonplace within society.

Bradaction

As someone who identifies as non-binary, and understands that Gender is separate to Sex, it is astounding to me how people who claim to be in support of the LGBTQIA+ community continue to misgender and use incorrect pronouns. What is most concerning about this, is that it seems to be a systematic denial and refusal to accept Gender non-conforming people into society.

I provide the following example

Person A goes by they/them
Person B goes by he/him
Person B and A are in a group setting
Person B refers to A as he or she, on countless occasions.

There are several explanations for this type of behaviour the first being quite simply a mistake, or error which is understandable. The issue comes from when Person B is consistently informed of the correct pronouns and continues making the same error.

Is this then a person continuously making the same mistake over a short time period?

What about when people, through ignorance, intentionally ignore someone's preferred pronouns, despite having knowledge of their gender non-conformity. Is this still a mistake of fact?

Finally we come to the most important question.

Intentional mis gendering and the usage of incorrect pronouns is assumed as a weapon by those who wish to showcase that they don't believe in the existence of GenderQueer people. For example Person C may 'non maliciously' refer to Person A as he/him, simply because there is a belief against the existence of, or whether or not Pronouns should be used. This is of course on it's own discriminatory, yet, often these people will justify it as, 'basic biology.'

Questions
Is there a legitimate, philosophical reason for one to use the incorrect pronouns? (Excluding cases where someone's safety may be in danger.)
Should people simply refer people to their correct pronouns regardless of their belief on the matter, given how little the usage of pronouns affect other people?
How much does the continuous usage of the incorrect pronouns suggest a large amount of transphobia and xenophobia within society, even if the circumstance, is unintentional, but continuous?

1. There is not legitimate philosophical reason to use someone's incorrect pronouns, as whether or not someone can debate someone with pronouns that don't conform to general society, does not matter at all on the pronouns of that person. Whereas is many other philosophical debates, this would be important. For example, in religion, the question of God cannot be asked without literally questioning God, and often people arguing for the non-existence of God are non-believers.

2.Yes, referring to people by their correct pronouns is simple, and easy to do, it should be done in order to help foster positive relationship, discourse and debate.

3.The continuous use of incorrect pronouns, regardless of intention, showcases a large amount of xenophobia and transphobia exists within society, even when these are found to be unintentional, repeated cases of unintentional mis-gendering are still problematic.

Banno

Speaking for myself, I can only keep one issue in my head at a time. If I am telling someone you want coffee instead of tea, I am focused on the coffee and the tea, not on the pronoun; and hence will say "She wants coffee".

The habits of a long life. For you the issue is gender. For me, beverages.

James Riley

As someone who identifies as non-binary, and understands that Gender is separate to Sex, it is astounding to me how people who claim to be in support of the LGBTQIA+ community continue to misgender and use incorrect pronouns. What is most concerning about this, is that it seems to be a systematic denial and refusal to accept Gender non-conforming people into society. — Bradaction

I stopped there and did not read the rest of your post. My wife and son and I were just talking about this the other day. I'm sure you and they are right, and I am wrong, but when it boils down to it, I'm just lazy and I don't give a shit.

For me to use the proper pronouns makes the improper assumption that I care about you more than I care about anyone else. Unless and until you do something that really makes me want to remember you, then we'll all be lucky if I remember your name two nano-seconds after you tell me as I look you in the eye and shake your hand. For the life of me, I can't understand why anyone would expect anyone to give more than two shits about their name, much less pronoun preference.

I've always been astounded (and looked up to and admired and respected) people who remembered other people's names without having really developed any kind of relationship with them.

But that doesn't mean I don't support people's rights to swing any damn way they want.

Now maybe I'll go back and read the rest of what you wrote to see if it changes my position any.

Joshs

↪Bradaction

Is there a legitimate, philosophical reason for one to use the incorrect pronouns? ( — Bradaction

How do you distinguish between philosophy and politics?
Would you say that we use philosophical worldviews to guide our political choices?

Intentional mis gendering and the usage of incorrect pronouns is assumed as a weapon by those who wish to showcase that they don't believe in the existence of GenderQueer people — Bradaction

Haven’t you answered you own question? There are many who don’t understand the philosophical-empirical underpinnings of gender as a separate category from sex. Thus, they justify their political decisions on the basis of this philosophical limitation.

referring to people by their correct pronouns is simple, and easy to do, it should be done — Bradaction

In order to answer the question of how to get people to use correct pronouns, you first have to deal with how to get people to understand the concept of psychological gender. Even when you achieve this , it will still
be a slow process to get the language to evolve. Edicts, pressure , cajoling and threats arent enough. Language changes on the basis of pragmatic usefulness. As people see for themselves the various advantages of changing pronouns , they will go along.

Jack Cummins

↪Bradaction

I completely agree with you, but from what I saw on the thread on changing sex, there are individuals on this site who have their own agenda, and for their own wishes, would like to rule out any individual definitions of gender identification. I believe that we have the right to choose our identity, and I hope that you are not bombarded with replies which tell you that we should only define ourselves accordingly to chromosomes and other so called aspects of essential gender. My own view is that we should be able to choose our own identity, and, of course, we live in a social world of bodies, but we may justify our identity rather than simply being told who we are, and who we may become.

Tom Storm

In order to answer the question of how to get people to use correct pronouns, you first have to deal with how to get people to understand the concept of psychological gender. Even when you achieve this , it will still
be a slow process to get the language to evolve. Edicts, pressure , cajoling and threats arent enough. Language changes on the basis of pragmatic usefulness. As people see for themselves the various advantages of changing pronouns , they will go along. — Joshs

Yep. Nail on the head. This is an issue many people won't be able to understand and, even if sympathetic, will struggle to practice.

James Riley

Okay, I went and read the rest of your post and no, it did not change my opinion. It's almost Trumpian, to me, for someone to assume they are important enough for others to remember their name, much less their preferred pronouns. But I was wrong once, so it's possible I could be wrong again. If you jump to the conclusion that I hate you or don't respect how you understand yourself just because I don't track along with you on your little journey, then you would be making the mistake. I'll back your hand if someone gives you shit about your journey. Other than that, I say get over yourself.

Kenosha Kid

↪Bradaction

For the vast majority of people, there is no distinction between sex and gender. For you, the pronoun denotes gender roles and identities, not birth sex, while for most that distinction doesn't really exist. I agree that people who deliberately use the wrong pronoun are prejudiced people, but then I don't think accusing people of using pronouns in the way they've been taught as weapons when there are more obvious and realistic reasons why someone might not care to make pronouns an individualist concept is any better.

K Turner

↪Joshs

Edicts, pressure , cajoling and threats arent enough. Language changes on the basis of pragmatic usefulness. As people see for themselves the various advantages of changing pronouns , they will go along. — Joshs

Sometimes a little pressure and ostracism goes a long way: How long would it take you to notice the issue if people started referring to you as a different pronoun when you misgendered someone? People learn quickly when the feedback is quick and direct. First offenses may be forgivable, but beyond that it's becoming egregious.

↪Bradaction

It's because dumb boomers don't care - even the leftist ones. Misgendering is cruel and unusual and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I'm sorry you're around those types of people and hopefully as the new generation comes of age they spread their message and norms and the older generation dies off.

James Riley

How long would it take you to notice the issue if people started referring to you as a different pronoun when you misgendered someone? — K Turner

Water off a duck. Call me anything you want, just don't call me late for dinner.

It's because dumb boomers don't care - even the leftist ones. — K Turner

Bingo!

K Turner

↪James Riley

Bingo! — James Riley

This is a serious issue @James Riley, the younger generation is suffering and the Boomers ignore their cries of pain/calls for reform. Denying someone's identity is tantamount to genocide.

T Clark

What is most concerning about this, is that it seems to be a systematic denial and refusal to accept Gender non-conforming people into society. — Bradaction

Gay people have come to be accepted in society by most of us. That's a very good thing. Although I have a lot of sympathy for some people who suffer from gender dysphoria and similar conditions, society as a whole has not come to accept those conditions. If an adult biological man identifies as a women in a committed fashion, I'm willing to refer to her as a female using female pronouns.

It is my understanding that people who refer to themselves as "genderqueer" don't consider themselves either males or females. Is that correct? Many, including myself, don't consider that a legitimate social distinction. It seems much more like a political statement than a social one. Perhaps over time it will come to be accepted. You're really young. Perhaps if you had a better understanding of what gay people have had to go through to get where they are today, it would give you a better perspective.

James Riley

Denying someone's identity is tantamount to genocide. — K Turner

You should refer to me as "Your Majesty."

Joshs

↪K Turner

Sometimes a little pressure and ostracism goes a long way: How long would it take you to notice the issue if people started referring to you as a different pronoun when you misgendered someone? People learn quickly when the feedback is quick and direct. First offenses may be forgivable, but beyond that it's becoming egregious. — K Turner

That would work if there were a strong consensus in favor of the new pronouns, but this is not the case society-wide yet. It is currently concentrated in academia , some larger corporations and among younger populations. Conservative and rural communities are not applying any peer pressure or ‘ ostracism’ in this direction. Most likely the opposite is the case. Neither is the senior population likely to go along quickly.

Isaac

Is this then a person continuously making the same mistake over a short time period?

What about when people, through ignorance, intentionally ignore someone's preferred pronouns, despite having knowledge of their gender non-conformity. Is this still a mistake of fact? — Bradaction

You're treating the issue as if it were a matter of naming, it's not, it's a matter of method. Old folk like me have had upwards of fifty years practicing the method of choosing a pronoun on the basis of visual cues (or things like names if those fail us). What we're being asked to do now is not just learn the correct term, it's to change the entire method by which we've spent the last fifty years determining the right term. It's not easy, even for those of us willing to give it a try, not too hard either, we'll get there in the end. It's one thing to re-invent an aspect of language - language changes all the time - but it's another entirely to treat those still trying to catch up with very fast moving changes as if they were the enemy.

The fact of the matter is that people, back in my younger days, were misgendered all the time. It was the fashion for boys to have long hair (as I did), and I, along with many others, were frequently referred to as she, using the say-what-you-see method which did for us back then. No one gave a fuck. We knew we were boys, we knew why they'd used 'she', there was nothing more to it.

I don't question why language and gender concepts are changing, they always do, and what you now think of as progressive will itself be seen as stubbornly conservative one day. What I do question is why there's such a strong desire to make enemies of anyone not waiving the flag for your chosen cause. To use the infamous but apposite cliche - there are children dying from poverty by the millions, who gives a fuck if pronoun evolution isn't happening quite as fast as you'd like.

Isaac

the younger generation is suffering and the Boomers ignore their cries of pain. — K Turner

No. This is what young people suffering looks like.

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Joshs

↪K Turner

Misgendering is cruel and unusual — K Turner

It may be cruel but hardly unusual. It is still the norm in many places. Until only a decade ago it was the new pronouns that were unusual. I wouldn’t be surprised if i. another few decades a fresh set of pronouns become ‘correct’ and the ones you are using are considered cruel and unusual.

jgill

Denying someone's identity is tantamount to genocide — K Turner

Are you comparing someone who fails to call a non-binary person "they" to a guard at Auschwitz locking a Jew in a gas chamber in the 1940s?

As with the thread on climate change, staying calm and sticking to facts is more convincing than excessive hyperbole.

Just my opinion.

James Riley

No. This is what young people suffering looks like. — Isaac

:100: :up:

Banno

For something about which no fucks are given, this topic attracts a lot of posts.

tim wood

LGBTQIA+ community — Bradaction

By far most folks are born equipped a certain way. Considering those people alone, as a group their behaviors vary, and for individuals over time behavior can vary. But this is just to start with a fact and depart into the psychology of choice and behavior. For this group the usual titles preserving identity, not behavior or choice or psychology.

For fewer people, the equipage is not-so-determinate. And that's a problem, and one may easily sympathize and attempt to empathize with that problem. But at least the usual titles are available to them as safe harbors, for them that choose to use them.

And there seems a larger group of people, apparently belonging on the basis of equipage to the first group, who don't like the group they're in. And in this I wonder if there is not fundamentally a confusion of psychology - of choice and behavior - with biology. That is, bluntly, identity confusion or disorder as a personality dysfunction.

But the insistence on recognition by having society recognize and use private labels contra ordinary usage seems to me just an expression - and an intrusive expression - of that dysfunction and its attempts to legislate it not a dysfunction.

If you're a guy who likes guys, or gal who likes gals, or either who likes both, good for you. Why should the rest of us have to acknowledge that in your title, your pronoun?

Jack Cummins

↪Isaac

I think that your post raises the important point that people can be misgendered even if they are not gender dysphoric or transgender at all. We live in a world in which people are perceived in gender categories and mistakes will occur. I have a gender dysphoric friend who used to get into arguments if they were not perceived in the chosen gender, but the truth of the matter is that we are all referred to as he or she on the basis of appearance most of the time, and this is more a matter of convenience rather than on any basis of philosophies about gender choice. But, in some cases, people are requesting that this framework is cast aside entirely. Some people find this easier than others.

K Turner

↪Joshs

I agree with your empirical assessment, but this can be changed with social action. As the population ages the elderly conservative population dies out. Additionally, if we can make it a norm through social action to e.g. yell at people who misgender others, I believe we can bring about meaningful change especially if we organize.

Also I agree with your point re: "cruel and unusual" punishment. Only cruel, not unusual. :up:

Bradaction

The habits of a long life. For you the issue is gender. For me, beverages. — Banno

Shouldn't the person still make an effort to use and refer to the person as the correct pronouns however, regardless of the focus? And of course, if the focus means that the person unintentionally uses the wrong pronoun, should they still apologise?

K Turner

↪Isaac

So what Isaac -- is poverty in the US not a problem because poverty in Africa is more severe? Suffering is suffering.

Banno

↪Bradaction

Put simply, I wish I had your problems.

Do you want the coffee or not?

Bradaction

\but when it boils down to it, I'm just lazy and I don't give a shit — James Riley

This seems like it is quite ignorant, you may not give a shit, but when it has been proven that using the correct pronouns can reduce the chance of that person becoming depressed and committing suicide, would you still claim that you have no moral responsibility if one of these actions are committed? Regardless of this, is it still right to not give a shit when these actions do affect the potentially safety of an individual?

When you talk about not giving a shit, are you implying that you would make no effort whatsoever to use the correct pronoun, and would not apologise for using the incorrect pronoun, or that where possible you would use the correct pronoun(i.e. remembering that pronouns)?

Also it does not seem accurate to imply that it is too difficult to refer to someone as 'they'. This is because they is very commonly used in place of a gender pronoun, when one does not have any knowledge of the gender of the person they are referring to. I.e. Whose phone is that? 'I don't know, they left in a hurry."

Bradaction

Do you want the coffee or not? — Banno

Would prefer a hot chocolate thanks!

Ciceronianus

In order to be completely gender-neutral, the use of pronouns should be discontinued. Just stop using pronouns. For example, instead of "Do you want some coffee?" simply say "Coffee, yes or no?" Instead of "I disagree with you" simply say "Disagree." Hand gestures may come in handy (get?) as well.

Think so, or don't think so?

Bradaction

For me to use the proper pronouns makes the improper assumption that I care about you more than I care about anyone else. — James Riley

Using the correct pronoun is simply commonplace regardless of the gender of the person. A woman misgendered as a 'he' would be immediately apologised to and the statement of incorrect genders would be retracted.

Isaac

For something about which no fucks are given, this topic attracts a lot of posts. — Banno

Oh I definitely give a fuck about the loss of focus. The shift in the 'big issues' of the day from third-world poverty to first-world individualism is literally killing people. I just don't give a fuck about being misgendered.

Why is the misgendering of people so commonplace within society.

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