This is the thing though I appreciate what you say if the big guy really wanted to give us clues about his existence he easily could do that throughout the universe with the laws of physics and the maths that drives it which through science we as humans are starting to unravel and discover and describe using maths as a language. — Deus

If there is a god, shouldn't his presence be overwhelmingly apparent?

And indeed, theists often do make this claim, adding the corollary that atheists are being wilfully infelicitous (atheists lie).

This position, although fanatical, has the advantage of at least being consistent.

...miracles... — Gregory

By definition, the results of science are not miraculous.

If you are a believer you are obviously going to prefer agnosticism because there appears to be room for the apologist's familiar arguments. — Tom Storm

Yep.

That's the god of the holes; invoking god to explain something for which there is at present no scientific explanation. — Banno

Did not wish to invoke God but life arising from mere inanimate matter is a big leap for sure…and secondly thermal vents which started all sorts of wonderful chemical reactions to lead to simple organic life…these conditions were not there earth early on was full of lava. Yet planetary conditions allowed transformations to earths surface to happen. Where am I going with this?…Yes back to thermal vents…the odds of going from non organic rock to an organism that is able to self replicate …huge I tell you … so where does God come into this ? He doesn’t! What’s my point ? Exactly …just odds from rocks (non-life) to human beings all because of those thermal vents without invoking God at all, yet the atomic interactions between the different molecules ! Science …but how did this happen in the first place you ask…no God? Surely these elements were designed in such a way by a higher power to bind together and create something useful. Hydrogen and Oxygen combining together to form water? That’s useful … still though … God ? Nahhh

Did not wish to invoke that.

If your faith is based on science, then to be consistent your would be obliged to reject your faith. — Banno

Big Bang! We will never know nor have the capacity to know what happened before it. It’s not unreasonable to invoke a first mover.

There's for options for any second-order predicate. So you left out "I don't believe that god doesn't exist"...presumably a weak form of atheism.

Nor is it reasonable to attempt to entirely seperate knowledge and belief (@Tom Storm). Knowledge requires belief, in that you cannot know something you do not believe.

life arising from mere inanimate matter is a big leap for sure — Deus

I don't agree. It arrises from my inanimate breakfast, for sure. Your incredulity is not an argument.

And we would do well to steer clear of the evolution debate, for fear of rendering the thread impotent.

As for a first mover, see this thread on causation: Causality, Determination and such stuff.

And we would do well to steer clear of the evolution debate, for fear of rendering the thread impotent. — Banno

Good idea let’s stay clear of it … I have no further arguments to present here for my theistic beliefs without sounding silly I guess it boils down to faith and personal opinion whether you believe in God, are a smart arse Atheist or a Prudent Agnostic.

The Agnostics will never know, the atheist simply doesn’t and the theist is damn sure.

I guess it boils down to faith and personal opinion — Deus

...and that's were morality enters the discussion, since we would then be considering what one ought to believe and how one ought to act. When faith is belief despite the facts, it is unconscionable.

I gather this thread is not going the way you thought it might.

One writer once wrote here that theism is "please spank me daddy" syndrome. A lot of the past has gone with the winds of time so physical explanations for life are tentative because it happened so long ago

Oops. Rookie mistake. Second time this month.

A lot of the past has gone with the winds of time — Gregory

You said it, Greg.

It seems to me there is no "better" and the "best".

Not knowing isn't the same as knowing. Whether that knowing affirms or denies.

There is simply the fact, or the non-fact (belief). Anyone that sets aside facts isn't reason-able, whether they affirm or deny

I don't think this trend is isolated to this subject. — Cheshire

I agree.

@Deus
So......let's get back to the intelligence of intelligences.

I gather this thread is not going the way you thought it might. — Banno

Is it not ? I don’t delve into the nature of the almighty his ways are mysterious. As to how a human being should conduct himself well that’s up to them … although compassion should be valued highly. Do good deeds not for the sake of reward and just remember Santa knows if you’ve been a good boy! Above all though do not preach nobody likes that.

and how one ought to act — Banno

An adult should have realised this by now, respect all. Value life recognise virtue do not feign affection be on good terms with all. Forgive mistakes give praise when it’s merited…enjoy life we only live it once.

So......let's get back to the intelligence of intelligences. — skyblack

Yes let’s! An omnipotence owes nothing to us especially proof to its existence…the proof is in the pudding.

Apatheism

Nonsense

An omnipotence owes nothing to us... — Deus

Is that so? I had been told he loves us. Doesn't that involve his taking on some obligations towards us?

Hearsay is silly.

Hearsay is silly. — skyblack

As is heresy.

Mere technicality, don't get lost in silliness.

the proof is in the pudding. — Deus

Problem with that is the pudding is used to prove either argument.

Is that so? I had been told he loves us. Doesn't that involve his taking on some obligations towards us? — Banno

Who told you that ? He’s a funny guy got a wicked sense of humour I tell you. If he told us he existed all scientific progress would come to a halt and we would be to dependable on him…this is the reason why there are so many atheists it’s all a bit hush hush. What’s love gotta do?

@Deus

Alright., i have no investment in this game....so will remove myself.

Are you a deist or a theist?

Problem with that is the pudding is used to prove either argument. — Tom Storm

Existence itself buddy where did we come from…poof pops the universe out of nowhere don’t you find it interesting. Bigger question…who created god how did existence itself come to be why is there something rather than nothing. How did it come into existence out of nowhere ? Very interesting questions to me

He’s a funny guy got a wicked sense of humour I tell you. If he told us he existed all scientific progress would come to a halt and we would be to dependable on him…this is the reason why there are so many atheists it’s all a bit hush hush. — Deus

You suppose to know the outcome of God undeniably presenting itself to the world? Seems bold, like you imagine God thinks just like you. I think the atheists are being honest.

Are you a deist or a theist? — Tom Storm

Theist all the way, although the degree of his involvement in his creation is sometimes questionable.

You suppose to know the outcome of God undeniably presenting itself to the world? Seems bold, like you imagine God thinks just like you. — Cheshire

Just making an assumption I do not think the almighty would reveal himself to everyone all at once. Perhaps to the occasional individual.