Attempt at a coherent question here. Maybe best to leave it simple. What is an infinite ordinal? — tim wood
0 1 2 3 4 5 ... ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ... | | | | | | ... v v v v v v ... 0 2 1 3 4 5 ...
The system Ω of all [ordinal] numbers is an inconsistent, absolutely infinite multiplicity. — Georg Cantor
and eventually to the coolest number that I know, an ωω-sized exponental tower of ωω's. This number is called ϵ0=ωωω⋰ϵ0=ωωω⋰. Then there's a hierarchy ϵ1ϵ1, ϵ2ϵ2, and on and on. These are the epsilon numbers.
Now here is the punch line.
Every one of these ordinal numbers that I've shown so far is a countable set. It represents some well-ordering of NN. — fishfry
I have to pause here because you have said explicitly what I thought was an error on a video.[/url]
What vid, I'll take a look. Youtube giveth and Youtube taketh away.
— tim wood
An ordering has a first element (yes?).[/url]
A well-ordering, yes. Orderings in general need not have first elements, for example the usual < on the integers. But well-orderings always have a first, second, third, ..., element.
— tim wood
At some point candidates for the second element are exhausted, how then going forward does it remain uniquely orderable? — tim wood
And if it does, then how do you get to ε? — tim wood
Btw, for clarity on a difficult subject, you're hitting it out of the park! — tim wood
OK, I'm not reading all that... but thank you. — Banno
↪fishfry Well done! Handy reference for an oldtimer, Too. :cool: — jgill
An ordering has a first element (yes?) — tim wood
At some point candidates for the second element are exhausted, — tim wood
uniquely orderable — tim wood
Every one of these ordinal numbers that I've shown so far is a countable set. It represents some well-ordering of NN. — fishfry
But now the modulo remainder trick doesn't work; and it's clear that there are going to be a lot more ordinals than there are obvious ways to reorder the naturals to represent them. We need new ideas. — fishfry
The core concept of ordinals is the idea of a well order. A well-order is an order relation on a set such that every nonempty subset has a smallest element. — fishfry
First? Or least but not necessarily first?A well ordering of set S provides that every non-empty subset of S has a first element. — TonesInDeepFreeze
I was thinking naively that well-ordering means the set can be and is ordered lexicographically. But with the OP I'm thinking the "and is" isn't part of it. E.g., I thought 1,2,3 is well-ordered when presented as {1,2,3}. But now I'm thinking that 1,2,3 is well ordered in each, and all, of six variations. If the latter is true, then my "uniquely orderable" is just a mistake.What does "uniquely orderable" mean? — TonesInDeepFreeze
Hmm. New for me: well-ordered does not mean in-order, yes? — tim wood
! Is it correct to think of all the well-orderings to be the same thing as all the permutations? — tim wood
For the natural numbers, that would just be ω! (or maybe better aleph-0!), yes? The image I have - that maybe I have to work through - is of something like a deck of card. Fifty-two of them. With 52! possible arrangements. With the cards, at least, you can't get past 52! arrangements without duplication. — tim wood
I suppose similarly there is an upper limit on the arrangements of NN. And I get it that each of those is countable. Why not, they're just arrangements. — tim wood
Again how to be brief? — tim wood
I might not be the best person to give advice about that :-)
Following with your construction above, it seems that ω is the ordinal associated with NN. — tim wood
That leaves the question, how many infinite subsets of NN are there? — tim wood
(And with each ω as a subset, if well-ordering does not require being in-order, then each of those yielding ω! permutations - yes?) — tim wood
If all of this ends at ε - does it end at ε? - — tim wood
then how do you get beyond ε and still be countable? — tim wood
If it doesn't end, how do you get larger ordinals. — tim wood
I'm still reading. I suppose the answer is up ahead. I'll look for it, then, and wait for it. — tim wood
I was thinking naively that well-ordering means the set can be and is ordered lexicographically. — tim wood
But with the OP I'm thinking the "and is" isn't part of it. E.g., I thought 1,2,3 is well-ordered when presented as {1,2,3}. But now I'm thinking that 1,2,3 is well ordered in each, and all, of six variations. If the latter is true, then my "uniquely orderable" is just a mistake. — tim wood
First? Or least but not necessarily first? — tim wood
can be and is — tim wood
well-ordering means the set [...] is ordered lexicographically. — tim wood
1,2,3 is well ordered in each, and all, of six variations — tim wood
Every permutation of {1 2 3} "induces" a distinct well ordering of {1 2 3}. — TonesInDeepFreeze
Is it correct to think of all the well-orderings to be the same thing as all the permutations? — tim wood
ω! — tim wood
NN — tim wood
seems that ω is the ordinal associated with NN. But it also seems that ω is also associated with every infinite subset of NN. — tim wood
how many infinite subsets of NN are there? — tim wood
ε — tim wood
how do you get beyond ε and still be countable? — tim wood
Here is some of the terminology (not necessarily in logical order) that one must have a very clear understanding of in order to have a clear understanding the matters in this thread. — TonesInDeepFreeze
Seems like every popular leftist finite ordinal is coming out as trans these days. Pretty soon they’ll make it illegal to be a cis finite ordinal at all! — Pfhorrest
And one can get the "general idea" about ordinals — TonesInDeepFreeze
a clear understanding — TonesInDeepFreeze
It is virtually impossible to gain a clear understanding of set theory through back and forth posts. Only a textbook studied systematically starting at page 1 is likely to work. — TonesInDeepFreeze
We can do the same trick with remainders mod 4, 5, and so on, to represent ω4,ω5,…ω4,ω5,…. Eventually the upward limit of that process is ωω copies of ωω, or ω∗ω=ω2ω∗ω=ω2.
But now the modulo remainder trick doesn't work; and it's clear that there are going to be a lot more ordinals than there are obvious ways to reorder the naturals to represent them. We need new ideas. — fishfry
The idea was that they were simply defined into existence, — tim wood
Question: is the change from ω-street to ε-street a "can't get theah from heah" transition? — tim wood
I see the language that says you just add a successor, but what successor would that be? — tim wood
Your OP a Disneyland of rides, and I not tall enough for most of them.and if this thread has helped — fishfry
You keep taking successors and sups, successors and sups. ϵ0 is a limit ordinal, it's not the successor of any ordinal. — fishfry
Your OP a Disneyland of rides, and I not tall enough for most of them. — tim wood
And yet it's countable. That seems strange. — tim wood
With zero and 1, I take it a person can get to any number in {0, 1, 2,.., n}, though perhaps not efficiently. The limit of that being ω. Hmm. The only way I can understand ω or ω+1, is simply as the numbers ω and ω+1, which are just larger than any of the {0, 1,.., n}. — tim wood
Maybe I need a bit more care in thinking about what a number is. Transfinite cardinals and ordinals thus not numbers in any naive sense, but in an extended sense, perfectly useful and thus perfectly good. — tim wood
An ordinal number is the order-type of a well-ordered set — fishfry
A well-order is an order relation on a set such that every nonempty subset has a smallest element. — fishfry
Every possble nonempty set of the naturals has a smallest member, so the naturals are well-ordered by <. — fishfry
the negative numbers have no smallest element. — fishfry
ω stands for the natural numbers in their usual order. — fishfry
If the usual order 0, 1, 2, 3, ... is called ω — fishfry
our funny order (N,≺) is called ω+1 — fishfry
even without choice, some uncountable sets can be well-ordered. Just not all of them. — fishfry
in the absence of choice, there are infinite sets that are not well-ordered — fishfry
there's also no set of all sets bijectively equivalent to the naturals or any other cardinality. — fishfry
the Alephs are indexed by whole numbers — fishfry
Infinity and the Mind by Rudy Rucker. — fishfry
in the limit, or sup operation. — fishfry
Every permutation of a finite set is a well-order. — fishfry
A well-order is an order in which every nonempty subset has a smallest element. — fishfry
So for infinite sets, permuting does not preserve order type. — fishfry
there are many who consider such books "archives" and that the sine qua non of learning is the good teacher. I myself favor middle ground, finding books to allow triangulation on a topic by one providing illumination where another is dark, while a teacher provides guidance and explains difficulties. — tim wood
I vaguely remember a comment that "explained" certain large cardinals by saying, "You can't get theah from heah." By which I understood that no ordinary process could get to them, meaning, as best I get it, that no recursion scheme could get to them. — tim wood
The only way I can understand ω or ω+1, is simply as the numbers ω and ω+1, which are just larger than any of the {0, 1,.., n}. — tim wood
Maybe I need a bit more care in thinking about what a number is. — tim wood
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