• fdrake
    6.1k
    "The asshole [is] a universal vagina through which femaleness can always be accessed" Andrea Long ChuAndrew4Handel

    Isn't that what you actually believe though? That secretly wanting to be fucked in the ass is a way of wanting to be a woman?

    (1) Trans women are women. (Assumption for reductio)
    (2) All women have vaginas. (Premise)
    (3) Trans women's bums are vaginas OR trans women do not have vaginas (Premise)
    (4) Trans women's bums are vaginas (3, disjunctive syllogism, from 2 on pain of contradiction)
    (5) Bums are not vaginas (Premise)
    (6) Not (Trans women's bums are vaginas) (from 4,5 and Modus Tollens)
    (7) Trans women don't have vaginas. (discharging the disjunction in 3)
    (8) Trans women aren't women. (2, 7, allegedly modus tollens)

    Fallacy though, all you can conclude is the negation of the conjunction of the other premises.

    Either that (trans women are women) is false, that (all women have vaginas) is false or that Bums really are vaginas.

    Personally, I side with bums really being vaginas because diversity is important to me.
  • Andrew4Handel
    2.5k
    If so , would you concede that there are intermediate psychological genders that the male/ female binary doesn’t capture?Joshs

    It is a spectrum of behaviour not a spectrum of gender. You don't change sex or gender by just being a man who is not violent
  • Joshs
    5.4k
    It is a spectrum of behaviour not a spectrum of gender. You don't change sex or gender by just being a man who is not violentAndrew4Handel

    You can change the gender -related behavior of animals with hormone replacement. This is an effect on the brain, not the sex parts or genes. Male mammals and birds behave differently than females. Have you ever owned a car or dog? Why’s isn’t this behavior a spectrum of gender?What is it that is at the very core of what we mean by gender, vaginas and penises or behaviors such as sexual attraction, masculinity and femininity? If I put you in a time machine and took you back to the womb , and then altered the hormonal environment to change your psychological gender , it wouldn’t change your biological
    gender but every aspect of you style of interacting with your world would change in a gender -related way.
  • fdrake
    6.1k


    Women lose their virginity when they have sex.
    Whenever women lose their virginity, their hymen breaks.
    Anal sex makes women lose their virginity.
    Only vaginas have hymens.
    Therefore bums are vaginas.
  • Cheshire
    1k
    How is it possible.

    It isn't from a scientific perspective. How has it become so accepted as a concept?
    Andrew4Handel

    I think it's related to the degree of suffering that is caused by the mismatch and the seriousness in regards to what people will do to over come it; relative to the almost non-existent burden it places on society. Not accepting it means my comfort level with your internal state is more important than the suffering caused by it. Which is selfish to the point of evil.
  • BitconnectCarlos
    2k
    How is it possible.

    It isn't from a scientific perspective. How has it become so accepted as a concept?
    Andrew4Handel



    Cis people generally don't care too much and don't want to rock the boat. Ultimately, we're social beings who are just looking to get along and be accepted and when a cis person out of the blue starts going after trans folks it never looks good.

    I understand things might be getting pushed a bit far sometimes, and I understand that people have legitimate doubts about one's ability to "really" change one's gender, but voicing those concerns in public is just kind of a peculiar conversation to have and I don't know why it would be brought up. I don't see what I gain as a cis person by spreading the message that trans folk are "really" their original gender beside ostracizing them.
  • Andrew4Handel
    2.5k
    I don't see what I gain as a cis person by spreading the message that trans folk are "really" their original gender beside ostracizing them.BitconnectCarlos

    I have raised a range concerns about gender ideology. Mutilating peoples bodies, undermining peoples health with wrong sex hormones, undermining women's rights and safety, converting gay and gender nonconforming children to trans.

    There is no such thing as a cis person.

    Not telling the truth about peoples innate biological sex is an unnecessary lie and creates a pervasive delusion. Facts should not be suppressed to spare peoples feelings.

    Gender critical conversation like mine is a minority conversation, gender ideology and trans ideology is pushed at us left right and centre and is well funded infiltrating public schools, big business, twitter, reddit and so on. The world revolves around it now, making people declare their pronouns and respect hundreds of fantasy gender identities, censoring people, calling the police and firing people from jobs.

    I don't know what planet some of you people have been on recently.

    This is why I started the thread asking is this forum Woke and Politically correct.
  • Cheshire
    1k
    Gender critical conversation like mine is a minority conversation, gender ideology and trans ideology is pushed at us left right and centre and is well funded infiltrating public schools, big business, twitter, reddit and so on. The world revolves around it now, making people declare their pronouns and respect hundreds of fantasy gender identities, censoring people, calling the police and firing people from jobs.Andrew4Handel

    How do you explain the lack of a threat it poses to other people? No one is trying to change your gender against your will I hope.
  • Andrew4Handel
    2.5k
    I think it's related to the degree of suffering that is caused by the mismatch and the seriousness in regards to what people will do to over come it; relative to the almost non-existent burden it places on society.Cheshire

    " relative to the almost non-existent burden it places on society"

    I just started this whole thread raising a wide range of concerns that I have just restated in my latest post concerning the reasons it does affect society. I assume you didn't read any of the thread.

    There is the harmful treatments that are classed as trans health care which have many deleterious effects on health such as wrong sex hormones leading to conditions like osteoporosis, arthritis, and increased risk of heart attack etc.

    Mastectomies (now called top surgery) being irreversible and carrying the risk of future chronic pain.

    Gender non conforming and gay children being groomed to believe they are trans. Women being sexually assaulted by female identifying males in spaces supposed to be for women alony for their safety.

    Not accepting it means my comfort level with your internal state is more important than the suffering caused by it. Which is selfish to the point of evil.Cheshire

    I don't know what you mean. Someone believing they are born in the wrong body is having their suffering caused by a delusion and it is possible to make someone think they were born in the wrong body by lying and endorsing this ideology rather than telling them no it is not possible.

    If someone is suffering mentally I would advocate therapy and psychiatric medication not body mutilation. I have posted evidence here that these treatments afore mentioned don't decrease gender dysphoria suicidality etc. But pretending to be the opposite sex is at others peoples expense people get engaged in a societal lie that they don't know what the original sex of a person was but are changing their language and society to pander.
  • Andrew4Handel
    2.5k
    How do explain the lack of a threat it poses to other people? No one is trying to change your gender against your will I hope.Cheshire

    I have just responded to your previous post.

    It does post a threat to other people and vulnerable people. How many harms do you want me to list?

    Reddit detrans now has 20,000 + members https://www.reddit.com/r/detrans/

    Here people talk about regretting transitioning, being encouraged or groomed to transition. Trying to return their normal voice and appearance.

    It is not them and us anyone can fall victim to trans ideology and detransitioners are those kind of people.
  • Cheshire
    1k
    I don't know what you mean. Someone believing they are born in the wrong body is having their suffering caused by a delusion and it is possible to make someone think they were born in the wrong body by lying and endorsing this ideology rather than telling them no it is not possible.Andrew4Handel

    You don't really know what that suffering is like, but it seems to be a serious matter so why not show some humanity and let them do what they need to do. I don't have any interest in your evidence.
  • Andrew4Handel
    2.5k
    You don't really know what that suffering is likeCheshire

    Lots of people suffer including myself that does not justify claiming you are the opposite sex or having multiple invasive surgeries and a life time on hormones and other meds.

    Why is the only route to eliminating suffering, body modification and making people pretend you are the opposite sex, allowing men to compete against women in sports when they have obvious biological advances. Why the need to groom other people and society because of ones own gender crisis? It is all unreasonable solutions.
  • Benkei
    7.4k
    Someone believing they are born in the wrong body is having their suffering caused by a delusion and it is possible to make someone think they were born in the wrong body by lying and endorsing this ideology rather than telling them no it is not possible.Andrew4Handel

    Here's some research you should read,

    https://pure.knaw.nl/ws/files/2203335/Burke2016JPsychiatNeurosci.pdf

    Let me know when you've figured out how these physical changes come about as a result of an underlying delusion.

    I also note that the Swedish study you referenced showed female likelihood of sexual violence if proper psychological care was provided to trans women. So the converse argument is possible too, that given the fact certain groups of trans women have female levels of violence those are really women then. Or maybe it's just not a very good indicator.
  • Benkei
    7.4k
    ld7aaut17kwj5n5b.png

    This is clarifying too.
  • bongo fury
    1.6k


    So, lies to children? Or, pinned up only in the comparative religion class, along with pictures of spirits and souls and angel/devil psychology?
  • Benkei
    7.4k
    What part is a lie?
  • Jack Cummins
    5.1k
    I think that some people project so much onto transgender individuals, and that is why they have issues with individuals who are gender dysphoric or wish to transition.
  • bongo fury
    1.6k
    What part is a lie?Benkei

    There are two kinds of sex - mental and physical.TheMadFool
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    Explain why what I said is a lie!
  • Benkei
    7.4k
    Why is it a lie? There's "sex" what your body looks like, and "gender" what you feel and how you think about yourself and therefore "identify" as.
  • bongo fury
    1.6k


    Yes, it's true, your mind is essentially male or female, or somewhere in between.
  • Michael
    14.8k
    If someone is suffering mentally I would advocate therapy and psychiatric medication not body mutilation.

    There is the harmful treatments that are classed as trans health care which have many deleterious effects on health such as wrong sex hormones leading to conditions like osteoporosis, arthritis, and increased risk of heart attack etc.

    Mastectomies (now called top surgery) being irreversible and carrying the risk of future chronic pain.
    Andrew4Handel

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5944396/

    Expert consensus regarding the treatment of adults has been arrived at after many years of clinical experience. Attempts to engage individuals in psychotherapy to change their gender identity or expression are currently not considered fruitful by the mental health professionals with the most experience working in this area...

    Although treatment with exogenous estrogen or testosterone carries a risk for medical side effects, both have been associated with improvement with respect to anxiety, mood, and mood stability, as well as overall satisfaction and quality of life for both transgender women and transgender men. Similarly, review of the available literature demonstrates the benefits of surgery in alleviating GD and the rarity of postsurgical regret.

    ---

    Reddit detrans now has 20,000 + members https://www.reddit.com/r/detrans/

    Here people talk about regretting transitioning, being encouraged or groomed to transition. Trying to return their normal voice and appearance.

    It is not them and us anyone can fall victim to trans ideology and detransitioners are those kind of people.
    Andrew4Handel

    https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/media-s-detransition-narrative-fueling-misconceptions-trans-advocates-say-n1102686

    In a 2015 survey of nearly 28,000 people conducted by the U.S.-based National Center for Transgender Equality, only 8 percent of respondents reported detransitioning, and 62 percent of those people said they only detransitioned temporarily. The most common reason for detransitioning, according to the survey, was pressure from a parent, while only 0.4 percent of respondents said they detransitioned after realizing transitioning wasn’t right for them.

    The results of a 50-year survey published in 2010 of a cohort of 767 transgender people in Sweden found that about 2 percent of participants expressed regret after undergoing gender-affirming surgery.

    The numbers are even lower for nonsurgical transition methods, like taking puberty blockers. According to a 2018 study of a cohort of transgender young adults at the largest gender-identity clinic in the Netherlands, 1.9 percent of adolescents who started puberty suppressants did not go on to pursue hormone therapy, typically the next step in the transition process.

    ---

    Someone believing they are born in the wrong body is having their suffering caused by a delusion...Andrew4Handel

    https://ps.psychiatryonline.org/doi/pdf/10.1176/appi.ps.201800232

    Recent case series, however, suggest that gender dysphoria is separate from psychosis and often predates the onset of psychotic symptoms (11, 12).

    ...

    Clinicians will need to recognize the difference between the bizarre beliefs expected in delusions and the marked sense of incongruence between gender identity and sex assigned at birth that may persist long after optimized treatment of psychosis (11).
  • Benkei
    7.4k
    Your replies are useless. If you don't have anything substantive to add to support your opinion, please go elsewhere.
  • Andrew4Handel
    2.5k
    From one of those studies you cited :

    "Individuals who would likely be considered transgender today are evident throughout the historical record.1 "

    In the past you couldn't be transgender in the modern sense because you could not have your breasts removed or penis inverted or go on hormones, all you could do is cross dress and perform roles attributed to the opposite sex.

    This is conflating gender non conformity with transsexuality. A woman is not someone who wears dresses or works as a nurse, she has ovaries, a womb, periods, menopause etc none of these things are available to the opposite sex.
  • Andrew4Handel
    2.5k
    "Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group."

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

    Detransition:

    "Direct, formal research of detransition is lacking. Professional interest in the phenomenon has been met with contention."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detransition
  • Benkei
    7.4k
    In the past you couldn't be transgender in the modern sense because you could not have your breasts removed or penis inverted or go on hormones, all you could do is cross dress and perform roles attributed to the opposite sex.

    This is conflating gender non conformity with transsexuality. A woman is not someone who wears dresses or works as a nurse, she has ovaries, a womb, periods, menopause etc none of these things are available to the opposite sex.
    Andrew4Handel

    You're confusing transgender with transsexuality. They are not the same thing. You can be transgender without changes in sex.
  • Michael
    14.8k
    In the past you couldn't be transgender in the modern sense because you could not have your breasts removed or penis inverted or go on hormones, all you could do is cross dress and perform roles attributed to the opposite sex.

    This is conflating gender non conformity with transsexuality. A woman is not someone who wears dresses or works as a nurse, she has ovaries, a womb, periods, menopause etc none of these things are available to the opposite sex.
    Andrew4Handel

    The modern sense of being transgender doesn't depend on being able to "have your breasts removed or penis inverted or go on hormones".

    Gender dysphoria is "the condition of feeling one's emotional and psychological identity to be at variance with one's birth sex."

    Gender non-conformism may include gender dysphoria but also includes those whose emotional and psychological identity is not at variance with their birth sex but who nonetheless present in a manner that differs from that expected from someone of their gender identity. For example I'm a man and I wear eyeliner, which isn't typical of men in my culture and so is to some degree gender non-conforming.
  • frank
    14.9k

    I know you said you're gay, have you ever had gender dysphoria?
  • Michael
    14.8k
    That article also says:

    This suggests that even though sex reassignment alleviates gender dysphoria, there is a need to identify and treat co-occurring psychiatric morbidity in transsexual persons not only before but also after sex reassignment.

    Those with gender dysphoria are more likely to have comorbid disorders than the general population, and it is perhaps these comorbid disorders -- along with the fact that transgender people are often mistreated, discriminated against, and told by others that they are delusional and mutilating their bodies -- that is responsible for the higher suicide rate.
  • Andrew4Handel
    2.5k
    I know you said you're gay, have you ever had gender dysphoria?frank

    No
bold
italic
underline
strike
code
quote
ulist
image
url
mention
reveal
youtube
tweet
Add a Comment

Welcome to The Philosophy Forum!

Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.