• TheHedoMinimalist
    460
    I want to talk about the arguments for and against corporal punishment. I’m going to start by listing what I think are the 3 most common arguments.

    The Success-Oriented Argument: it could be argued that CP can be justified at least under some circumstances because it would make the child more successful in life as an adult. I tend to think that this claim is implausible. For one, psychologists and sociologists have found correlations between strict parenting and stuff like drug addiction and criminality. It’s worth noting that correlation doesn’t necessarily imply causation but I think it’s still hard to sell the idea that CP causes life improvements if it correlates with many kinds of bad outcomes.

    The Relationship Damage Argument: it could be argued that CP is bad under most circumstances because it tends to make relationships between parents and children worse in adulthood. Children may resent their parents because of their CP and this produces a negative outcome for both the parent and the child. I tend to think that this relationship damage as a result of CP occurs frequently today but didn’t occur as much in the past when CP was more prevalent. This is because I tend to think that the perception of one’s own trauma and victimhood status is greatly influenced by cultural norms for most people. This would imply that CP shouldn’t be done in an anti-CP society unless it is also worthwhile to do CP in order to try to change cultural norms around CP(which I don’t think it is). Though, it may be argued that if you move to a pro-CP society then CP wouldn’t cause relationship damage. In addition, it could be argued that most children are willing to forgive their parents for CP as long as it seemed well-intentioned and the parents end up expressing remorse for doing it. I don’t that this always works though because sometimes the resentment that the child feels will be kept private and the parents would just be confused about why their kid is shutting them out of her life.

    The Trauma Argument: It could be argued that CP causes trauma. My thoughts on this are kinda similar to the relationship damage argument since I also think that cultural norms influence trauma. I think trauma probably produces a worse outcome when relationships damage does and there’s probably less ways to mitigate it after the fact.

    The Deontological Argument: it could be argued that CP would still be bad even if it produced a good outcome. This may be because it may be argued that there is a duty that people have to not act violently against those who don’t deserve violence but it may be argued that parents do not have a duty to make their children successful. Of course, this argument assumes that children who receive CP never or almost never deserve violence. Overall, I think this argument is good as far as deontological arguments go but I’m not a deontologist and I don’t believe in the existence of moral duties so I don’t find this argument convincing.
  • Down The Rabbit Hole
    530


    I think a case could be made for strict parenting on the basis of the "Success-Oriented Argument", but when you introduce CP you open the door to the "Relationship Damage Argument", and the "Trauma Argument". Presumably there is a sweet spot somewhere, and we need studies to lead the way.

    I don't think I'll be convinced by any deontological arguments.
  • tim wood
    9.3k
    The world deals in CP. In the case of the world it's usually called the consequences of actions. But this kind of CP is natural and partakes of nature. The question is, can CP by people be natural?

    Instructive for me, here, is my having stuck my finger into a live light socket at about age four. I never ever did it again. Also about the same age putting a lit match into a small gas tank to see what was inside: another lesson learned.

    This puts constraints on the possibilities of beneficial outcomes from, say, parental CP. It cannot be about anger or reaction or feeling or emotion. And it must be of sufficient violence to make the point.

    A candidate might be the small child who insists on running into the street. But a problem is to make sure the right lesson is learned. A child might easily learn not to enter the street while you're present, but that it is ok when you're not.

    My conclusion is that CP is a failure of parenting, a failure to impose positive controls as needed. At a seminar it was asked how many times you had to tell a child before you could/should beat them. Answer, as many times as it takes.

    In passing, sometimes reference is made to "Spare the rod..," as a justification for CP. But that is just a misreading of the text. In context it means guidance.
  • TheHedoMinimalist
    460
    Presumably there is a sweet spot somewhere, and we need studies to lead the way.Down The Rabbit Hole

    I think it’s pretty hard to find reliable studies on this topic. The first thing we have to worry about is who is funding the studies and if they have an agenda to promote. The second concern is the replication crisis in psychology and sociology and how you can usually find at least one study to support both sides of a debate. Another concern is related to whether a study simply establishes a correlation or if they actually do the tedious work of isolating each additional variable to determine the most probable cause. I think a good meta-analysis of studies would be most helpful but there are also different standards regarding what studies they would consider to have acceptable sample size and acceptably non-biased sample.
  • TheHedoMinimalist
    460
    A candidate might be the small child who insists on running into the street. But a problem is to make sure the right lesson is learned. A child might easily learn not to enter the street while you're present, but that it is ok when you're not.tim wood

    I agree, it seems that CP only provides incentives for children to behave well when their parents will know about their behavior. In addition, it seems that CP can only be done with children that you are able to CP. It becomes a completely ineffective strategy for most adults and older teenage boys who might be stronger than you at that point or have legal freedoms not to put up with your CP. I think this greatly limits the extent to which CP provides incentive for good behavior in the long term.
  • baker
    5.6k
    Then there's the Social Hierarchy Argument: People need to learn that human society functions as a matter of hierarchy and that it is of vital importance to learn one's place in said hierarchy, and also, that one must fight (sometimes literally, with fists and kicks, other times less physically, with money and power) for one's place in it.


    Although it seems that most of the time that parents and teachers beat children in their care it's just to blow off steam, to take out their anger and frustration (which aren't necessarily caused by or about the children) on someone who cannot defend themselves. Similarly as some people kick dogs, hobos, or run other drivers off the road.
  • 180 Proof
    15.3k
    My conclusion is that CP is a failure of parenting, a failure to impose positive controls as needed.tim wood
    Spare the child, spoil the child's rod.

    (Says a childless kynic.)
  • Benkei
    7.7k
    Child abuse also presents itself in what parents say such as “you're worthless", "you're ugly", "you're stupid", and flat out ignoring them and yelling.

    I'm not a model parent (who is?) and found a lot to learn through the app "in love while parenting". Anyone struggling with dealing with their kids' emotions and reflecting on your own behaviour and learning to expand your emotional vocabulary can benefit from this app.
  • James Riley
    2.9k
    I don't think the measure of man is the only worthwhile measure, but for those who think it is, I will tell you this: Man will get more out of a horse or a dog that's never been beaten.

    It takes way more time and resources to train up an animal slow and gentle, but there is a greater demand, and value, for the end product.

    I don't know why a body would expect people are any different. Build up trust and work for a mutual partnership. Give slack where it's due and when it's due. And understand the nature of the animal you are working with. People aren't horses or dogs, they are more complicated, and they aren't chattel (animals shouldn't be either, but that's another thread) or yours to make into what you want. But if you are not afraid of them, then give them access to education, resources, health, respect, dignity and honor. If you've treated them well, then you have no reason to fear them.

    But if you've been treating them like shit, you can expect a surly horse, a sour horse, or a cowering horse. Don't be surprised if you get kicked or bit, or at the very least, won't get any good work out of them.
  • TheHedoMinimalist
    460
    Then there's the Social Hierarchy Argument: People need to learn that human society functions as a matter of hierarchy and that it is of vital importance to learn one's place in said hierarchy, and also, that one must fight (sometimes literally, with fists and kicks, other times less physically, with money and power) for one's place in it.baker

    I’m not sure if your expression of the argument indicates that you actually endorse this argument on any level but I’m a bit confused about the argument. Would you be able to provide an example of a person who failed to learn of one’s place in the social hierarchy and experienced a negative outcome in life because of that?
  • Huh2
    5
    If people don't die for being wrong then nobody will be right
  • baker
    5.6k
    I’m not sure if your expression of the argument indicates that you actually endorse this argument on any level but I’m a bit confused about the argument. Would you be able to provide an example of a person who failed to learn of one’s place in the social hierarchy and experienced a negative outcome in life because of that?TheHedoMinimalist
    Pretty much anyone who in any way doesn't obey authorities:
    Students who don't obey teachers tend not to do so well in school; citizens who don't obey police officers tend not to do so well in life; employees who don't obey their bosses tend not to do so well at work. Etc.
  • Huh2
    5
    Does social hierarchy depend on whos luckiest?
    You could lose everything in a single day from a mistake.
    And if the only people who make rules are luckiest,
    How do people distinguish what's actually the correct things to do?
  • Hanover
    12.9k
    Child abuse also presents itself in what parents say such as “you're worthless", "you're ugly", "you're stupid", and flat out ignoring them and yelling.Benkei

    Are you saying that our behavior here doesn't translate well when dealing with our children?
  • Benkei
    7.7k
    With anybody really. The internetz is not a healthy place to be honest, which is why it's important to take a regular break from it.
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