The Brain Discovers The Awful Truth

TheMadFool

I'm no historian but one possibility in re humanity's journey on this planet sticks out like a sore thumb - mankind's entire story can be condensed in one word "brain" or "mind" if that's more to your taste. From a certain point in the evolution of homo sapiens, even the word "sapiens" emphasizes the point I'm trying to make, the brain kinda took over, seized the helm in a manner of speaking, and crowned itself emperor, king of kings. After that all we've been doing is connected in one way or another to the brain/mind, things like art, philosophy, science, etc.

All that's fine of course - mind-related activities have their own appeal and are fun to engage in, not to mention their utility to our overall well-being. The conclusion is obvious - the brain/mind is, it can be said, of paramount importance. Surely, nothing could convince us otherwise.

But hold on! Take a moment to consider the phenomenon some unlucky folks experience in their lives viz. fainting/syncope. The usual circumstances in which people faint/have a dizzy spell/lose consciousness are those that involve an insult to the cardiovascular system, in layman's terms blood loss. The body, physiologists say, responds by diverting the diminishing supply of blood away from, here's where it gets interesting, nonessential parts of the body to the vital organs. In other words, insofar as the body is concerned, the brain/mind is a nonessential i.e. it can be and is shut down in times of crisis.

Note, the brain/mind is the first organ to shut down when one sustains significant injury. Let's look at this from a rational point of view. Imagine yourself to be at home and you're told that the power company is rationing its elecricity supply and it turns out you're to be alloted only X kilowatts of power for the coming 24 hours. What would you do? It goes without saying that the most nonessential appliance you have in your house is the first one you'll switch off. We're forced to conclude, like it or not, that the brain/mind is the most nonessential organ in our body. Why else would the body turn it off first when in life-threatening situations? Shouldn't it be the other way round and the brain/mind, if truly as important as we think they are, the last organ to be powered off during danger?

To sum it all up,

1. The belief we have that our minds/brains come first - defines what it is to be human, takes precedence over any and all - is a grand illusion, a delusion of grandeur, a misconception of the highest order.

2. The irony of this realization, if it counts as such, is not lost on me and the reader too must come to terms with the truth that this post/thread is simply the brain/mind telling itself how insignificant it itself is in the grand scheme of things I suppose.

Amity

In other words, insofar as the body is concerned, the brain/mind is a nonessential i.e. it can be and is shut down in times of crisis — TheMadFool

Utter nonsense.
As is:

To sum it all up,

1. The belief we have that our minds/brains come first - defines what it is to be human, takes precedence over any and all - is a grand illusion, a delusion of grandeur, a misconception of the highest order.

2. The irony of this realization, if it counts as such, is not lost on me and the reader too must come to terms with the truth that this post/thread is simply the brain/mind telling itself how insignificant it itself is in the grand scheme of things I suppose. — TheMadFool

Where did you drag all this up from and what do you hope to achieve by posting such ?

From: https://psychcentral.com/blog/the-science-behind-ptsd-symptoms-how-trauma-changes-the-brain#2

The 3-Part Brain

The Triune Brain model, introduced by physician and neuroscientist Paul D. MacLean, explains the brain in three parts:

Reptilian (brain stem): This innermost part of the brain is responsible for survival instincts and autonomic body processes.

Mammalian (limbic, midbrain): The midlevel of the brain, this part processes emotions and conveys sensory relays.

Neommalian (cortex, forebrain): The most highly evolved part of the brain, this area outer controls cognitive processing, decision-making, learning, memory and inhibitory functions.

During a traumatic experience, the reptilian brain takes control, shifting the body into reactive mode. Shutting down all non-essential body and mind processes, the brain stem orchestrates survival mode. During this time the sympathetic nervous system increases stress hormones and prepares the body to fight, flee or freeze.

Non-essential body and mental processes are shut down.
However, the brain is still essential.

TheMadFool

Utter nonsense — Amity

State your norms of assertion.

Where did you drag all this up from and what do you hope to achieve by posting such ? — Amity

From what I know.

By the way, since this is a possibility I have to consider, is it possible that you - Amity - won't faint/lose consciousness when you lose roughly 25% of your blood volume? If you can remain conscious and in full possession of your faculties even when you lose a quarter of your blood, you have a case which I will then look into. Until then, adieu.

Amity

↪TheMadFool

More facts about the brain:
https://www.rchsd.org/health-articles/brain-and-nervous-system-2/

TheMadFool

More facts about the brain:
https://www.rchsd.org/health-articles/brain-and-nervous-system-2/ — Amity

:ok: Thanks

Amity

...

TheMadFool

Irrelevant — Amity

Why?

TheMadFool

:chin:

Amity

↪TheMadFool

Removed comment. Not worth pursuing.

TheMadFool

Removed comment. Not worth pursuing. — Amity

But why? My brain talking to your brain...two nonessential items vying for what appears to be the last position in the rankings.

Jack Cummins

↪TheMadFool

What I am about to say will probably have me cast as the madman of the forum, but I don't see the brain as the only source of awareness. I am not suggesting that the brain is not central but I believe that there are energy centres, chakras, and meridian points, which are important as well as the brain.

Such ideas are known in some Eastern systems of thought and holistic medicine, as being important, but I don't think that they have ever been thought much about in philosophy, which does seem to think about us as brains, within bodies, somehow connected with the nervous system. For me, this picture appears rather limited for understanding the human being, and it goes back to the Cartesian picture, rather than a fuller understanding of us as living systems.

TheMadFool

I don't see the brain as the only source of awareness — Jack Cummins

Interesting to say the least but what explains the loss of consciousness when the brain shuts down?

Possibility

Take a moment to consider the phenomenon some unlucky folks experience in their lives viz. fainting/syncope. The usual circumstances in which people faint/have a dizzy spell/lose consciousness are those that involve an insult to the cardiovascular system, in layman's terms blood loss. The body, physiologists say, responds by diverting the diminishing supply of blood away from, here's where it gets interesting, nonessential parts of the body to the vital organs. In other words, insofar as the body is concerned, the brain/mind is a nonessential i.e. it can be and is shut down in times of crisis. — TheMadFool

I think you may be incorrectly assuming that the entire organ shuts down, but we commonly lose consciousness without losing all brain function. It is consciousness, then, that can be determined a non-essential function in times of crisis, not the brain. But I think it also depends on the crisis, and on individual conceptual structures. Some would determine ‘non-essential’ functions to include consciousness as a whole, others would retain an immediate appearance of consciousness (able to communicate information or move away from danger) but would process no memories during this time.

TheMadFool

↪Possibility

All I can say is that we zonk out and to tell you the truth, it doesn't even matter which part of the body consciousness resides in; the point is consciousness is the first to be switche off and that implies, it's of least importance.

Amity

fainting/syncope. — TheMadFool

what explains the loss of consciousness when the brain shuts down? — TheMadFool

The brain does not shut down in the case of loss of consciousness.
See previous responses:

Non-essential body and mental processes are shut down.
However, the brain is still essential. — Amity

I think you may be incorrectly assuming that the entire organ shuts down, but we commonly lose consciousness without losing all brain function. It is consciousness, then, that can be determined a non-essential function in times of crisis, not the brain — Possibility

With reference to Syncope, the mechanisms re loss of consciousness and blood supply are explained here :

https://www.sciencealert.com/why-do-humans-faint

The sympathetic nervous system makes sure the small blood vessels in your body's tissue maintain a baseline level of constriction. This resistance as blood flows through all your narrow blood vessels contributes to sufficient blood pressure for the whole system.

An increase in parasympathetic activity reverses this resistance, allowing blood to linger in the peripheral tissues rather than heading to the heart and brain. A lack of resistance, along with the lowered heart rate, causes a dramatic decrease in blood pressure.

And you've fainted – or more technically, experienced a neurocardiogenic syncope. While sometimes embarrassing, it's fairly common and, in itself, not overly dangerous.

the point is consciousness is the first to be switche off and that implies, it's of least importance. — TheMadFool

You have moved from claiming that the brain is non-essential to consciousness being of least importance.

We're forced to conclude, like it or not, that the brain/mind is the most nonessential organ in our body. — TheMadFool

Nope. It is not the case that the brain is the most nonessential organ in our body.

My brain talking to your brain...two nonessential items vying for what appears to be the last position in the rankings. — TheMadFool

Perhaps your brain is nonessential, not mine. Thanks for the exercise - not vying for any position on any TPF 'rankings' - just to keep on thinking...for better or worse :roll:

Possibility

All I can say is that we zonk out and to tell you the truth, it doesn't even matter which part of the body consciousness resides in; the point is consciousness is the first to be switche off and that implies, it's of least importance. — TheMadFool

I’m not convinced that it’s the first to be switched off, though. I think we notice more readily when consciousness switches off. But there are a number of functions which may already temporarily shut down before we reach this level of crisis. These may include our digestive system, bowel and bladder control, circulation to extremities, temporal orientation, etc.

TheMadFool

The brain does not shut down in the case of loss of consciousness.
See previous responses: — Amity

It really doesn't matter which organ shuts down when we're severely injured. All we need to know is consciousness, wherever it resides, is the first - let's call it - bodily process to malfunction so to speak but this is done "intentionally" (Google peripheral vasoconstriction in shock) and that's precisely the biological fact my thesis - the brain isn't the most important organ in the body and if you feel that it is, you're in the grips of an elaborate illusion - hinges on.

You have moved from claiming that the brain is non-essential to consciousness being of least importance. — Amity

If I have moved, it's a response to your move.

I’m not convinced that it’s the first to be switched off, though. — Possibility

Sorry, you're wrong.

James Riley

I know when blood rushes from one head to the other head, we discover a beautiful truth. In that sense, two heads are better than one. But neither one can live without the other. It's like the chicken/egg question: Which came first, the big head or the little head?

Amity

I know when blood rushes from one head to the other head, we discover a beautiful truth. — James Riley

:smile:

I decided to go play elsewhere:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/531767

Ciceronianus

The body, physiologists say, responds by diverting the diminishing supply of blood away from, here's where it gets interesting, nonessential parts of the body to the vital organs. In other words, insofar as the body is concerned, the brain/mind is a nonessential i.e. it can be and is shut down in times of crisis. — TheMadFool

I'm curious which physiologists say the brain is "nonessential." And which of them claim the brain is "shut down." And which of them would treat any particular part of the body as something separate from the rest of it, for that matter.

Possibility

I’m not convinced that it’s the first to be switched off, though.
— Possibility

Sorry, you're wrong. — TheMadFool

You won’t convince me with that argument, I’m afraid. So far, the illusion seems to be yours. If you remove the brain from the body and expect the body to continue living, then you’d be mistaken. That consciousness isn’t necessary for life is plausible. That the brain isn’t necessary seems ridiculous, and you have yet to demonstrate otherwise.

I’m thinking you might need to be clearer with your use of ‘brain’, ‘mind’ and ‘consciousness’. Your argument reads like:

Consciousness is the first function to switch off in a crisis.
Therefore,
The brain is the least important organ in the body.

Sorry, try again.

TheMadFool

I know when blood rushes from one head to the other head, we discover a beautiful truth. In that sense, two heads are better than one. But neither one can live without the other. It's like the chicken/egg question: Which came first, the big head or the little head? — James Riley

Do you have a relevant point to make or are you just passing random comments?

That consciousness isn’t necessary for life is plausible — Possibility

Plausible? Bacteria, yeast, and some worms too I suspect.

That the brain isn’t necessary seems ridiculous — Possibility

Isn't necessary for____

Before you fill in the blanks take a moment to think about what you said earlier, I quote you as saying, "That consciousness isn't necessary for life is plausible"

Consciousness is the first function to switch off in a crisis.
Therefore,
The brain is the least important organ in the body.

Sorry, try again. — Possibility

You're cherry-picking and you're also guilty of the strawman fallacy.

P

TheMadFool

@Possibility @Amity @James Riley

If you're still in the game, meditate on the following:

First off, I crosschecked my hypothesis by visiting the relevant Wikipedia pages and it seems your objections are well-founded. Despite it being true that the brain, the alleged seat of concsiousness, does take a hit when the body is badly injured, the response to the ensuing shock is to divert all the available blood and its nutrient contents to vital organs only and that includes the brain. Thank you bringing that to my attention - I learnt something new today.

At this juncture it's necessary to understand that the brain is itself a complex organ consisting of many parts - cerebrum, prefrontal cortex, cerebellum, to name a few. The precious flow of blood during shock is diverted to the brain, yes, but not all parts of the brain get an equal share of the blood pie. The parts of the brain that have a role in maintaing physiological functions like breathing, heart beat, swallowing, are given the lion's share of the blood and the prefrontal cortex where consciousness resides receive very little blood at all and thus fainting/syncope occurs. To make the long story short, consciousness isn't as important as it thinks it is.

Amity

...consciousness isn't as important as it thinks it is. — TheMadFool

If it is consciousness that you wish to discuss, then think about folllowing the advice offered by @Possibility

I’m thinking you might need to be clearer with your use of ‘brain’, ‘mind’ and ‘consciousness’. — Possibility

visiting the relevant Wikipedia pages — TheMadFool

If you haven't already researched 'Consciousness', here's a start:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness

At the very least, it is necessary to differentiate between the different types and approaches.

Best wishes.

Joshs

↪TheMadFool

this post/thread is simply the brain/mind telling itself how insignificant it itself is in the grand scheme of things I suppose. — TheMadFool

You’re right. The brain-mind don’t dominate. It’s brain-mind-body and environment together. They cannot be separated except artificially.

TheMadFool

If it is consciousness that you wish to discuss, then think about folllowing the advice offered by Possibility

I’m thinking you might need to be clearer with your use of ‘brain’, ‘mind’ and ‘consciousness’.
— Possibility

visiting the relevant Wikipedia pages
— TheMadFool

If you haven't already researched 'Consciousness', here's a start:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness

At the very least, it is necessary to differentiate between the different types and approaches. — Amity

Thank you for your concern. Frankly speaking, I should've given the matter more thought - the OP clearly isn't as good as I thought it was. Consider my thesis a work in progress if you will. As the discussion proceeds, posters like yourself and Possibility will expose the flaws in my argument, which the two of you have, and I'll make the necessary changes to make my thesis better, stronger, ~~faster~~

The issue of my having flip-flopped between consciousness and brain isn't really as damaging to my case as you seem to be implying. Vide infra, an excerpt from the OP:

mankind's entire story can be condensed in one word "brain" or "mind" if that's more to your taste — TheMadFool

Mind = Consciousness

No fallacy of equivocation has been committed.

That said, all this is just a test-drive for my hypothesis that the brain/prefrontal cortex) isn't nearly as high-ranking as it thinks it is in the pecking order of organs in our body and it's (my thesis) doing quite well to my reckoning.

If my statement that the brain is not, as it seems to think it is, the highest-ranking organ in our body is true, an intriguing mystery that needs solving is, what is?

You’re right — Joshs

Not absolutely right? :groan:

The brain-mind don’t dominate. It’s brain-mind-body and environment together. They cannot be separated except artificially — Joshs

This will need to be looked into with the utmost care.

James Riley

Do you have a relevant point to make or are you just passing random comments? — TheMadFool

We are animals.

TheMadFool

We are animals. — James Riley

And...?

TheMadFool

For what it's worth...

Using the sheep model, we were able to continuously measure region-specific CBFs. During controlled hypovolemia, cortical CBF remained constant until a blood loss of 10% compared to subcortical CBF, which remained constant until a blood loss of 20%. Even more important, the rate of reduction of CBF is more than three-fold higher in the cortex as compared to the subcortex, indicating that effective redistribution of blood flow is confined to the latter. — NCBI

From https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5454943/

It's interesting to consider the possibility that the redistribution of blood to the subcortex and away from the cortex could be a "wise" decision on the body's part. This would mean that, our biology was/is, in a certain sense, "designed" for jt seems to always, if not that most times, make the "correct" choices insofar as staying alive is the issue. There's plenty of room in this simple truth for a lot of what seems to be fancy ideas, one being the prefrontal cortex/mind deliberately, knowingly, intentionally switches itself off to live and fight another day as it were. :chin:

An analogy might help in clarifying the matter. If a power surge is on the cards, your immediate reaction would be to disconnect your most valuable electrical appliances. :chin:

James Riley

And...? — TheMadFool

Your OP talks about brains, and minds, and consciousness, and blood, and the relative importance of other organs. It also suggests than none of that is what makes us human. When you look at animals (which we are), it is folly to talk of parsing out one essential revolutionary character as being more important from another. Loss of blood is more or less, from one place to another, and your brain loses some function with some loss, and all function with all loss. Unless you are going to start talking about souls or something, then all your considerations are nothing that hasn't been gleaned from the study of non-human animals. (I don't even think we are different in that regard, but it's beyond the scope of this thread.)

I think my original post sums it up quite nicely, and I stand by it. If folks would spend as much time analyzing what I say, as they do trying to understand the deep, profound thinking, and learned terms-of-art used by the more sophisticated posts on this forum, they would have gotten all of that from this rube. :grin:

TheMadFool

Your OP talks about brains, and minds, and consciousness, and blood, and the relative importance of other organs. It also suggests than none of that is what makes us human. When you look at animals (which we are), it is folly to talk of parsing out one essential revolutionary character as being more important from another. Loss of blood is more or less, from one place to another, and your brain loses some function with some loss, and all function with all loss. Unless you are going to start talking about souls or something, then all your considerations are nothing that hasn't been gleaned from the study of non-human animals. (I don't even think we are different in that regard, but it's beyond the scope of this thread.)

I think my original post sums it up quite nicely, and I stand by it. If folks would spend as much time analyzing what I say, as they do trying to understand the deep, profound thinking, and learned terms-of-art used by the more sophisticated posts on this forum, they would have gotten all of that from this rube. :grin: — James Riley

I'm aware of the fact/possibility that all the information I'm throwing out there for analysis could be extracted from animal models and that medical knowledge could be dubious in that respect. However, human experiments have been/are also conducted albeit in an extremely limited manner and some of the data I presented here are from such.

The Brain Discovers The Awful Truth

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