↪MondoR
But surely owning or disowning determinism, or any other system only makes sense in the context of any particular framework of meanings. — Jack Cummins

Of course. Is there meaning in a series of sounds? There is, if it has been determined you believe so. You are not choosing anything, including your beliefs.

So, you are suggesting that all our meanings are determined. I think that I follow your basic argument, but I am not sure that it is any more objectively valid than less determinist viewpoints.

I think that you are really trying to point to the weaknesses in determinism, but it is just a little confusing, because in some ways you are trying to go through the steps of determinist views, in perhaps a slightly caricaturist way.

So, you are suggesting that all our meanings are determined. I think that I follow your basic argument, but I am not sure that it is any more objectively valid than less determinist viewpoints. — Jack Cummins

Non-determinism permits independent, creative thinking, i.e. new insights as a result of intuition. It happens as a spontaneous burst of recognition. This is something wholely new, and undetermined by any previous event. My topic, was MY topic, created by my mind.

I think that you are really trying to point to the weaknesses in determinism, but it is just a little confusing, because in some ways you are trying to go through the steps of determinist views, in perhaps a slightly caricaturist way. — Jack Cummins

It is as the topic suggests. Is there such a thing as objective truth in the context of determinism? It is not a caricature. It is discussing the meaning(less) of truth in a determinastic philosophy.

I just think that you are exaggerating the extremes of determinism or non determinism.

I prefer to characterize it as "this is determinism".

I just think that your point of view would be clearer if you suggested a better view or model, rather than simply looking for weaknesses in the determinist view in the way you are doing.

Admittedly, most determinists do not fully embrace their own philosophy, however the point is quite clear: There is no such thing as truth in a philosophy where everything is determined. What exists is a series of determined events, or whatever happens.

There is no such thing as truth in a philosophy where everything is determined. — MondoR

Again, then it is true that: there is no such thing as truth in a philosophy where everything is determined.

And it follows that there are truths. — Banno

Again, then it is true that: there is no such thing as truth in a philosophy where everything is determined. — Banno

There is a distinction. In a deterministic universe, the sentence is merely an utterance without meaning. The word exists. That's all.

There is a distinction. In a deterministic universe, the sentence is merely an utterance without meaning. The word exists. That's all. — MondoR

There is a performative contradiction in what you are saying that undermines your account.

If you are right, then it is true that in a deterministic universe, the sentence is merely an utterance without meaning; hence "In a deterministic universe, the sentence is merely an utterance without meaning." has meaning.

There is a performative contradiction in what you are saying that undermines your account. — Banno

It all depends upon:

Is the contradiction one of perspective, or

Inherent and inescapable in a determinastic life.

You keep making a pretence to arguing.

But you have made the point that these arguments are all "merely an utterance without meaning".

SO there re no arguments here, on your account.

If you wish to mount an argument, you will first need to recant.

If you wish to mount an argument, you will first need to recant. — Banno

There is no argumentation in a deterministic world. What is interesting, is thst what seems to be arguing even exists given the nature of determinism.

I, do not dwell in this world, but anyone who does, is faced with this conundrum and how to deal with it on a personal level.

I, do not dwell in this world, — MondoR

So it seems.

Scientists, also, are doing nothing more than reporting as they have been determined to report, and their observations are no more worthwhile than that of a Shaman. — MondoR

Science is not a report. It is a method for understanding the causes of what happens. The method does require being able to repeat experiments and recognize competing explanations of phenomena.

The method has brought powerful tools into the world with both constructive and destructive potential. The matter has progressed far beyond whether to believe a Shaman or not.

Science is not a report. It is a method for understanding the causes of what happens. The method does require being able to repeat experiments and recognize competing explanations of phenomena.

The method has brought powerful tools into the world with both constructive and destructive potential. The matter has progressed far beyond whether to believe a Shaman or not. — Valentinus

There is no method or understanding in determinism. There is only determined events. You may "feel" like there is up understanding and methods, only if the determined event is that feeling within you (don't ask me how these feelings come about). Others may not have that feeling, hence my remarks that that were also determined. So if I disagree with you, it is only because we are involved in different determined events. If we discuss or not discuss, it is all determined. Let's see what events happen. It's exciting isn't it?

Change in a determined universe generates a butterfly effect, the patterns expressed by the butterfly are determined time-locally.

There is also entropy in the universe and entropy creates change.

What was determined originally may have changed, that's not to say it's no longer determined; it's one of the beneficent effects of entropy.

What I said here was determined, but was it meaningful?

Did I reset and reorder the local determined system in a beneficent way?

Without education our mind registers probabilities of the determined system and possibilities of entropy as we experience common data- seemingly to us, unregistered.

Objectively speaking, truth evolves through vigorous change. 'What will be may not be' - my own quote.

It sounds like you took the Blue pill and the Red pill simultaneously.
I don't recommend driving or operating heavy equipment.

What I said here was determined, but was it meaningful? — ghostlycutter

To you maybe, because it was determined that you have that feeling, but not to me, because it was determined I would respond in this way.

" probabilities of the determined system"

"Probabilities In determined system" may have meaning to you, but it was determined it would have no meaning to you. There is no reasoning, just a feeling of reasoning. We have no choices.

With determinism, you can't have your cake and eat it. It is all or nothing.