But I don’t think the TTC was meant, originally. — Possibility

I think that's similar to what I meant when I said Lao Tzu didn't have a purpose in writing it.

I think we attribute an author to the text in order to distance ourselves from what we cannot yet grasp, but I think the TTC is so ambiguous because there IS no ‘what Lao Tzu says’ and no ‘what Lao Tzu means’ in the text at all. — Possibility

Sure. At the same time, I feel a relationship with Lao Tzu. I am learning something from him. It's personal. I'm grateful.

I’m thinking perhaps we see Taoism as either monist or idealist. I tend towards the monist perspective, myself. That may be why my interpretation often seems so out of step here. — Possibility

Isn't the Tao the ultimate monist concept? It's so monist, it isn't even a concept. If by idealist you mean the fact that reality has an established underlying form or forms, Taoism is anti-idealist. The Tao is explicitly formless. If I'm using the correct definitions for "monist" and "idealist," it seems like we're all monists in this discussion.

English is important because is the basic language where we can communicate each other. — javi2541997

Which allows us Americans to avoid learning foreign languages or cultures. We'll make the others learn our language. It's one of the big reasons so many people in the world don't like us much.

The text seems to encourage a return to the good old days. Is there such a thing as an ideal past state ?
Is it desirable to return to a state of nature, whatever that might be ? — Amity

The Golden Age seems to be a reference in all the classical literature. There also seems to be striking differences of opinion about how to go about making the future more like the best of the past. Describing the "way of heaven" is how the good result happens. In Lao Tzu, there is a lot of energy spent on pointing out faulty approaches to establishing these "ways." I will quote Verse 18 since it seems less encumbered by wildly different translations:

When the great way falls into disuse
There are benevolence and rectitude;
When cleverness emerges
There is great hypocrisy;
When the six relations are at variance
There are filial children,
When the state is benighted
There are loyal ministers — Translated by D.C. Lau

.

What is being observed as negative results here are the bullet points others are selling as the best policy.

My take from this is that the Way that leads to good results hasn't changed from the beginning but the proliferation of bad advice requires an effort of negation that investigates why the bad could be taken for the good. The need to delineate between the named and the unnamed was not a problem the "old followers" of the way had to wrestle with in order to stop bad things.

The Golden Age seems to be a reference in all the classical literature... The need to delineate between the named and the unnamed was not a problem the "old followers" of the way had to wrestle with in order to stop bad things. — Valentinus

I don't think Lao Tzu actually believed there was a Golden Age. He was a pretty smart guy and he understood human nature. I think the idea should be taken as metaphorical. The TTC tells us time and again that we the world returns to the Tao. Maybe returning to the good old days is just another way of describing it.

I've been thinking about this. I have always thought that we can experience the Tao directly, but not with our conscious, verbal, rational minds. Above, you write that we will never experience the Tao. — T Clark

What I tried to say is that we will never experience the Tao that created heaven and earth. Lao Tzu claims that whatever that might be is the same Tao we can observe in our life as what is given birth here with us.

Verse 1 suggests we can catch some kind of glimpse of what we can never sense through some means of changing our relation to "desire."

But I find that idea very far from a way to put these ideas together. I read the proposal that the realms are so absolutely different and yet the same with astonishment every time.

Maybe he did not believe it. However that may be, he wasn't suggesting a pair of ruby slippers were a viable means of transportation.

But I find that idea very far from a way to put these ideas together. I read the proposal that the realms are so absolutely different and yet the same with astonishment every time. — Valentinus

I remember high school physics when we learned about the dual nature of light. Particle/wave. Wave/particle. Which is it? What do you mean both??? I remember the moment...Ding! The bell, the one in my head, rang. The fact that it seems weird is just my problem. There's something wrong with me, not the universe. That's just the way things are. That memory has been helpful in the 50 years since I graduated.

It's one of the big reasons so many people in the world don't like us much. — T Clark

I think this is just political stuff we don't have to mix governments with people. When I was in Arkansas, Missouri, Illinois and Wisconsin everything was so awesome and I have good memories.
True, nobody knew Spanish but this made me stronger to improve my English so I ended up winning in that journey.

I am not sure if the references to different realms are being presented as conflicting reports of phenomena. It is acknowledged at the beginning that you will never be able to prove the difference or the sameness. The Tao that cannot be named and all. But the difference and sameness under-lay the claim about what is happening.

The ideas seem different as heard as a call to remain calm because of a "solution" or in the face of what will always be in tension.

I like word you used: “balance”. Yes, it is definitely better than equilibrium. Because TTC wants somehow to put equality principles to work on. You would not see in TTC something as totalitarian as The Prince, by Machiavello. — javi2541997

I just wanted to clarify here that I was saying I think your word of equilibrium is better than balance. I think it allows for a continual sense of movement and change.

I am not sure if the references to different realms are being presented as conflicting reports of phenomena. It is acknowledged at the beginning that you will never be able to prove the difference or the sameness. The Tao that cannot be named and all. But the difference and sameness under-lay the claim about what is happening. — Valentinus

My wave/particle duality reference related more to the state of mind it takes to accept an apparently impossible contradiction. There is no resolution to the contradiction. There's no way around it. It's not a misunderstanding. That's the way things are and you just have to learn to live with it.

The feeling that I have about the Tao and the 10,000 things is the same as I felt in physics class. That blank feeling of ...Oh.

I think this is just political stuff we don't have to mix governments with people. When I was in Arkansas, Missouri, Illinois and Wisconsin everything was so awesome and I have good memories.
True, nobody knew Spanish but this made me stronger to improve my English so I ended up winning in that journey. — javi2541997

I've been to Europe twice, three times if you count the time my family lived there in 1952 when I was one. Most recently my brother and I went there in 2014. I've always been treated well by the people I met. I loved trying to make myself understood using my five years of high school French and one year of college German.

I just wanted to clarify here that I was saying I think your word of equilibrium is better than balance. I think it allows for a continual sense of movement and change. — Possibility

Thank you! I think both words are important to understand TTC because somehow the meaning of the book is connected to this two words.

I've been to Europe twice, three times if you count the time my family lived there in 1952 when I was one. Most recently my brother and I went there in 2014. I've always been treated well by the people I met. I loved trying to make myself understood using my five years of high school French and one year of college German — T Clark

I am glad to read this. It is interesting that despite our politicians are always discussing each other, the citizens have fun in both continents. I guess this happens because somehow our culture and values are connected doesn't matter a few differences that could be language or customs

Attain the ultimate emptiness
Hold on to the truest tranquility
The myriad things are all active
I therefore watch their return
Everything flourishes; each returns to its root
Returning to the root is called tranquility
Tranquility is called returning to one's nature
Returning to one's nature is called constancy
Knowing constancy is called clarity
Not knowing constancy, one recklessly causes trouble
Knowing constancy is acceptance
Acceptance is impartiality
Impartiality is sovereign
Sovereign is heaven
Heaven is Tao
Tao is eternal
The self is no more, without danger — T Clark

I think the first two lines of this verse refer to meditative practices as a method of attaining the ‘emptiness’ observed in the old masters of the previous verse. Strict stillness is required to have any hope of getting to the root of existence.

I understand this verse as describing a process from attaining stillness in being, to then being able to observe the flow of everything, and notice the stillness to which everything returns again and again, revealing an underlying constancy to the world. When we’re aware of this, we have a clearer understanding of the world as a whole; but without this awareness, our actions lack flow and can be reckless and vicious. Without this awareness, we are apart from the world, and in conflict with it.

From an awareness of this underlying constancy, though, we are part of the flow, and act with fairness and justice for all. When we are fair and just, we have the capacity for great leadership, which then enables a spiritual awareness that brings us to the Tao.

The beginning of this verse and the end is where I notice the difference between monist and idealist - and it’s quite possible that I’m not relating to these labels in the same way as you do, so bear with me.

A Google translation of this last line is quite simply ‘not dead’, which amused me. But the characters describe the quality of not having a ‘main part’ to one’s structure (shen), and also a quality of ‘not almost’, or ‘probably not’. There seems to be a common assumption that this first quality of not having shen refers to a person, but the Tao is not a person. Plus, from the beginning of this sentence structure (arguably even the beginning of the verse) Lao Tzu is referring to a quality with no reference to ‘self’/‘I’ (the person in question attaining ‘emptiness’), so it really doesn’t make sense to suddenly bring a ‘self’ back in at the end.

English is insufficient in helping me articulate what I’m understanding here, so again bear with me. This last line refers to the eternal Tao as having no ‘main part’ to its structure, and no probability to its existence. This is contrast with verse 13, where the ‘I’ (the self as wú) is described as having a ‘main part’ to its structure (shen), through which one suffers greatly.

When we relate to the self as a living organism, its ‘main part’ is the body; as a conscious being, its main part is conduct or life (inclusive of body); as an experiencing subject, its main part is mind, consciousness, knowledge (inclusive of life). When we attain the state of ‘emptiness’ that leads us the Tao, there is no ‘main part’ to the structure, and yet, most importantly, none of the structure is lost - this ‘emptiness’ is inclusive of consciousness, life and body, NOT isolated from or dismissive of these aspects in any way.

So, the attaining of ‘emptiness’ is not a state of having NO self, but of dissolving the ‘I’ into the Tao - a state of being aware not as ‘I’ yet still inclusive of ‘I’: as but one facet of awareness.

When the body is recognised as just one facet of our conduct in living (rather than as its main part), then what draws our attention but cannot be seen is recognised for more than its destructive quality.

When our conduct, morality or lifespan is recognised as just one facet of consciousness, then what attracts our desire to learn but offers no set of instructions is understood as more than merely hopefulness.

And when our knowledge or consciousness is recognised as just one facet of a broader experience, then what attracts our efforts to relate, but cannot be grasped is meaningful for more than this quality of being abstruse.

I get the sense that intellectual approaches to the TTC tend to put aside the genuine difficulty in attaining this ‘emptiness’ as a physical state. I notice you’ve skipped verse 15, presumably not a favourite. There seems to be a kind of ‘could if I chose to’ approach to this practical aspect of the Tao, a drawing of the line that lends it an idealist bent. I guess if you never try, then you can’t fail, and it all remains a comfortingly theoretical approach to monism. The idea that we theoretically have intellectual control over our emotions, and thereby our thoughts, words and actions, is what Barrett challenges from a scientific standpoint. Taoist meditation challenges it from a practical standpoint.

But I don’t want you to get a sense that I’m attacking your approach as such. This is just something that concerns me about many of the translations I’ve seen here and elsewhere. We seems content with a description of what everyone ought to be doing, but I think the TTC calls us to relate to what it says from every level of our awareness.

Taoist meditation is a method of "quieting the mind." I practice a form of it called Shen Gong. But it is difficult to trace the origins of its principles before the powerful influence of Buddhism regarding the language differentiating levels of awareness and on the chattering quality of the "monkey mind."

Another element of the "practical" includes forms of movement that involve being guided by following the way. What we practice today as qi gong and related martial arts connects training with being able to do things along with preserving well being and bringing about rejuvenation.

From that point of convergence, the line between the practical and the intellectual is not only a type of self awareness but an understanding of what is around you and the capacity to act effectively as a result.

A lot of scholars resist reading this perspective as the intention of Lao Tzu and Zhuangzi but the many traditions that used those maps for their own purposes are important voices to be heard.

From that point of convergence, the line between the practical and the intellectual is not only a type of self awareness but an understanding of what is around you and the capacity to act effectively as a result. — Valentinus

I think it has a lot to do with understanding the flow and distribution of energy throughout and around the body. Barrett talks in her book about the ‘body-budgeting’ system, which manages the flow of energy for the organism - including energy flowing to and from the people and situations around us - and how affect plays a role. There are a number of parallels between Barrett’s description of body-budgeting and interoceptive networks of the body, and management of chi through sitting, moving and deeper meditation practices such as Shen Gong.

I think a lot of Western-style meditation aims to temporarily quiet the mind, but doesn’t build skills towards permanently dissolving the apparent gap between mind and body. We like the gap - it gives us the illusion that we’re exercising some form of intellectual ‘control’ over the body. Taoist practices work instead towards a collaborative unity, and aim to refine our system structures of emotion, thought and action with an improved flow of energy (chi), beginning with an awareness of this underlying constancy that leads us to the Tao.

A lot of scholars resist reading this perspective as the intention of Lao Tzu and Zhuangzi but the many traditions that used those maps for their own purposes are important voices to be heard. — Valentinus

I agree. I’m not often convinced by the reasoning given for Taoist practices, but I definitely think they draw attention to an important aspect of ‘experiencing the Tao’ that can be easily ignored in an intellectual approach to the TTC. I think verses 13 to 16 at least point out the bodily aspect of relating to the Tao as inseparable from our experience.

I like the way you've set the post up, I remember that at the beginning of this thread I did line by line discussions when I posted the verses. I've gotten away from that and I think it was a mistake. It's mostly because I got lazy. Also, you mention that I skipped Verse 15. I'm thinking that skipping verses is a mistake too. I did it because the TTC has 81 verses and it will take forever to finish. That is a very un-Taoist attitude.

I think the first two lines of this verse refer to meditative practices as a method of attaining the ‘emptiness’ observed in the old masters of the previous verse. Strict stillness is required to have any hope of getting to the root of existence. — Possibility

There was a Tai Chi teacher in the TTC reading group I was previously a member of. At first, he didn't bring his Tai Chi practice into the discussion. During one of our meetings, someone asked him how Tai Chi related to the verse we were discussing. His answer really opened up the discussion for me, as well as my understanding of what Lao Tzu is saying. That is one of the reasons I keep harping on the idea that we can't understand the Tao, we can only experience it.

I understand this verse as describing a process from attaining stillness in being, to then being able to observe the flow of everything, and notice the stillness to which everything returns again and again, revealing an underlying constancy to the world. When we’re aware of this, we have a clearer understanding of the world as a whole; but without this awareness, our actions lack flow and can be reckless and vicious. Without this awareness, we are apart from the world, and in conflict with it.

From an awareness of this underlying constancy, though, we are part of the flow, and act with fairness and justice for all. When we are fair and just, we have the capacity for great leadership, which then enables a spiritual awareness that brings us to the Tao. — Possibility

This is a very good summary of the verse and, I think, the path to the Tao.

Plus, from the beginning of this sentence structure (arguably even the beginning of the verse) Lao Tzu is referring to a quality with no reference to ‘self’/‘I’ (the person in question attaining ‘emptiness’), so it really doesn’t make sense to suddenly bring a ‘self’ back in at the end. — Possibility

Addiss and Lombardo translate the last line as "Tao endures. Your body dies. There is no danger." I think you make too big a thing out of the body/self distinction. I don't really experience my body as something separate from my self, identify, ego, spirit, consciousness, whatever you want to call it. I talk about it separately, just like I can talk about my emotions, perceptions, thoughts separately, depending on the situation. But I don't experience them as different. It is my understanding that many people do. I experience myself as all one thing.

English is insufficient in helping me articulate what I’m understanding here, so again bear with me. This last line refers to the eternal Tao as having no ‘main part’ to its structure, and no probability to its existence. This is contrast with verse 13, where the ‘I’ (the self as wú) is described as having a ‘main part’ to its structure (shen), through which one suffers greatly. — Possibility

I'm not sure I understand. The Tao has no parts, but my self can. It's one of the 10,000 things.

So, the attaining of ‘emptiness’ is not a state of having NO self, but of dissolving the ‘I’ into the Tao — Possibility

I think having no self and dissolving my self into the Tao are the same thing.

When the body is recognised as just one facet of our conduct in living (rather than as its main part), then what draws our attention but cannot be seen is recognised for more than its destructive quality.

When our conduct, morality or lifespan is recognised as just one facet of consciousness, then what attracts our desire to learn but offers no set of instructions is understood as more than merely hopefulness.

And when our knowledge or consciousness is recognised as just one facet of a broader experience, then what attracts our efforts to relate, but cannot be grasped is meaningful for more than this quality of being abstruse. — Possibility

Lao Tzu has a lot to say about this later in the TTC.

I get the sense that intellectual approaches to the TTC tend to put aside the genuine difficulty in attaining this ‘emptiness’ as a physical state. — Possibility

That's what I mean when I say we can't understand the Tao, we can only experience it.

There seems to be a kind of ‘could if I chose to’ approach to this practical aspect of the Tao, — Possibility

Do you think this is my attitude. It's definitely not.

The idea that we theoretically have intellectual control over our emotions, and thereby our thoughts, words and actions, is what Barrett challenges from a scientific standpoint. — Possibility

I think Freud said just this back in the early 1900s.

But I don’t want you to get a sense that I’m attacking your approach as such. — Possibility

I don't get that impression at all. I do appreciate that you're looking out for me. I'm pretty shy and timid.

From that point of convergence, the line between the practical and the intellectual is not only a type of self awareness but an understanding of what is around you and the capacity to act effectively as a result.

A lot of scholars resist reading this perspective as the intention of Lao Tzu and Zhuangzi but the many traditions that used those maps for their own purposes are important voices to be heard. — Valentinus

I don't see any way to avoid understanding that the intention of Lao Tzu is as you describe. Although, if I want to quibble, I don't really think he had any intention at all. In order to act without acting you have to intend without intending.

I agree. I’m not often convinced by the reasoning given for Taoist practices, but I definitely think they draw attention to an important aspect of ‘experiencing the Tao’ that can be easily ignored in an intellectual approach to the TTC. I think verses 13 to 16 at least point out the bodily aspect of relating to the Tao as inseparable from our experience. — Possibility

I agree.

I don't see any way to avoid understanding that the intention of Lao Tzu is as you describe — T Clark

As a matter of philosophy, the text appeared amongst other views regarding "naming" and language. Contrasts between Mohist and Confucius are commonly drawn. But the matter is complicated by circumstances. The period when these texts appeared was followed by a dark age of the Qin Dynasty who expressed their distaste for scholars of any stripe through erasure. We only know of these works at all because of various "enlightenments" who had their own agendas long afterwards. As in the western tradition, the act of preservation is not completely separable from the ends of the one who saves.

Along these lines of inquiry, there is an interesting SEP article on Zhuangzi that challenges traditional explanations of the relationship between Laozi and Zhuangzi. While making a number of helpful observations, the author blithely attributes the perspective of training as I presented it as a product of Chan Buddhism. He suddenly becomes guilty of a generality he condemns others of committing. That sort of thing makes scholarship very difficult in both the "western and eastern" traditions

I don't really think he had any intention at all. In order to act without acting you have to intend without intending. — T Clark

My understanding of Verse 15 gives me a different view:

Of old he who was well versed in the way
Was minutely subtle, mysteriously comprehending,
And too profound to be known.
It is because he could not be known
That he can only be given a makeshift description:
Tentative, as if fording a river in winter;
Hesitant, as if in fear of his neighbors;
Formal, like a guest;
Falling apart like thawing ice;
Thick like the uncarved block;
Vacant like a valley;
Murky like muddy water.
Who can be muddy and yet, settling, slowly become limpid?
Who can be at rest and yet, stirring, slowly come to life?
He who holds fast to this way
Desires not to be full.
It is because he is not full
That he can be worn and yet newly made. — Translated by D.C Lau. Book 1, verse 15

The "holding fast" seems to involve both deliberate focus and bearing along with not doing what has to happen without his help. Desiring not to be full in contrast to desiring to be full. The intentions are hidden from others but is the one who is "holding fast" also hidden from themselves?

As a matter of philosophy, the text appeared amongst other views regarding "naming" and language. Contrasts between Mohist and Confucius are commonly drawn. But the matter is complicated by circumstances. The period when these texts appeared was followed by a dark age of the Qin Dynasty who expressed their distaste for scholars of any stripe through erasure.
We only know of these works at all because of various "enlightenments" who had their own agendas long afterwards.
As in the western tradition, the act of preservation is not completely separable from the ends of the one who saves. — Valentinus

[emphasis added]

This is useful background which puts the TTC and its author's intention into context. Thanks.

From that point of convergence, the line between the practical and the intellectual is not only a type of self awareness but an understanding of what is around you and the capacity to act effectively as a result.
[emphasis added]

A lot of scholars resist reading this perspective as the intention of Lao Tzu and Zhuangzi but the many traditions that used those maps for their own purposes are important voices to be heard. — Valentinus

The ongoing narrative or dialogue of such scholars would be fascinating to follow. I agree it is important to pay attention to more than just one tradition or voice.
To listen with care not just to what is being said but also to what is not.
Just as we are doing here.

This thread has been a bit of an eye-opener for me.
Important to me, your words regarding the convergence of intellect and practice resulting in an awareness and understanding, then the capacity to act effectively as a result.

I am taking time out to read this:
https://terebess.hu/english/handbooks.pdf

Handbooks for Daoist Practice (Xiudao shouce 修道手冊) consists of ten
“handbooks.” These include handbooks two through ten (the nine booklets
that are the Daoist translation series proper). These are translations of nine
important, representative, and praxis-orientated Daoist texts. The first (or
tenth) handbook is an introduction to the series as a whole. — Trans. Louis Komjathy

Addiss and Lombardo translate the last line as "Tao endures. Your body dies. There is no danger." I think you make too big a thing out of the body/self distinction. I don't really experience my body as something separate from my self, identify, ego, spirit, consciousness, whatever you want to call it. I talk about it separately, just like I can talk about my emotions, perceptions, thoughts separately, depending on the situation. But I don't experience them as different. It is my understanding that many people do. I experience myself as all one thing. — T Clark

The translation choice of shēn as ‘body’, ‘life’, ‘self’, etc highlights the flexibility and unity of this quality/character, depending on the focus or perspective of the reader/translation. I think if we’re looking across the various translations, we can’t overlook this body/life/self relation as a qualitative structure - but it’s more complex than distinction or no distinction, separate or one thing. Why do we talk about emotions, perceptions and thoughts separately depending on the situation, when we don’t experience them as separately as these terms make out? I think this highlights the three levels of awareness that are often confused/blended into one (verse 13), and the cascade structure (verse 16) that presents each level as merely one facet of another level of awareness/relation. I think the TTC starts to give a sense here of a qualitative relational structure that talks about experiencing body-life-consciousness-self-spirit - shēn - without separation, but also without blending these levels of awareness into a single level.

Verse IX

Getting a full glass, without nothing spilling out, is impossible. It would have been better not fill it.
Getting a sharp blade, without the edge dulling, is impossible. It would have been better not dull it.
Conserve a living room full of Gold and minerals, without been robbed, is impossible. It would have been better not control that wealth.
You cannot control an extreme for long term. Any apogee has their own decay. Like the men...
Anyone who is showing off their power or richness, is preparing his ruin.
The retirement from the apogee and reputation, is the way to the sky.

Another example of equilibrium/balance from TTC!

Barrett talks in her book about the ‘body-budgeting’ system, which manages the flow of energy for the organism - including energy flowing to and from the people and situations around us - and how affect plays a role. — Possibility

Thanks for the information. I found this excerpt and TED video, here:

Excerpted from the new book 7 1/2 Lessons about the Brain by Lisa Feldman Barrett. Copyright © 2020 by Lisa Feldman Barrett. 

https://ideas.ted.com/peoples-words-and-actions-can-actually-shape-your-brain-a-neuroscientist-explains-how/

The Xiudao you have linked to is an excellent review of Daoist practices and how they developed. At the very least, it shows how extensively they have made the original texts an integral part of their view of the sacred.

But I disagree with this statement as far too simple of a view:

"Moreover, there is no such thing as philosophical Daoism. Philosophical
Daoism is wholly a modern Western construct that has no correspondence
to actual historical events or personages. 10 From its “beginnings,” here
dated to the Warring States period (480-222 B.C.E.), “Daoism” was a
“religious tradition.”11"

The text that we have of the different schools of thought record disagreements and arguments about the nature of reality and of human beings within that context. The people who continued the arguments through different dynasties had their own view of how to describe the texts and their arguments. This argument that excludes the "philosophical" by default is a construct of its own in so far as it assumes the western tradition has succeeded in separating that activity from the religious. I am tired of all the babies getting thrown out with the bathwater.

The school of practice I am involved with is referred to in the Xiudao as the following:

"In Daoist texts as historically distant as the anonymous fourth-
century B.C.E. “Neiye” 內業 (Inward Training) and Laozi 老子 ( Book of
Venerable Masters), anonymous sixth-century C.E. Yinfu jing 陰符經
(Scripture on the Hidden Talisman; DZ 31), and anonymous eighth-century
Qingjing jing 清静經 (Scripture on Clarity and Stillness; DZ 620), one
finds repeated admonitions to refrain from behavior patterns that dissipate
one’s foundational vitality. Inward Training understands Daoist practice as
ultimately connected to consciousness and spirit ( shen 神 ), with particular
emphasis placed on the ability of the heart-mind ( xin 心 ) either to attain
numinous pervasion ( lingtong 靈通 ) or to separate the adept from the Dao
as Source. Here the heart-mind is understood both as a physical location in
the chest (the heart [ xin 心 ] as “organ” [ zang 藏 / 臟 ]) and as relating to
thoughts ( nian 念 ) and emotions ( qing 情 ) (the heart as “consciousness”
[ shi 識 ]). Intellectual and emotional activity is a possible source of
dissipation and disruption. However, when stilled ( jing 靜 ) and stabilized
( ding 定 ), the heart-mind is associated with innate nature ( xing 性 ), the
givenness ( ziran 自然 ) and the actualization ( xiu 修 ) of one’s innate
endowment from and connection with the Dao. This return to one’s original
nature ( benxing 本性 ) is the attainment of mystical unification ( dedao 得
道 ).
Inward Training is clearly concerned with possible sources for the
dissipation of vital essence ( jing 精 ), vitality ( sheng 生 ), and spirit ( shen
神 ). As the title suggests, emphasis is placed on cultivating the internal ( nei 内 ), as innate connection to the Dao, over the external ( wai 外 ), as potential
disruption of one’s personal harmony and stability."

While it is true that this map has continuity with Dao De Jing, it can never be a replacement for it. The importance of the poetic exhortation to all who would agree or not is not a formula that structures experience through assignment of roles. That would reduce the role of the hidden to simply being a trade secret.

I am taking time out to read this:
https://terebess.hu/english/handbooks.pdf — Amity

I would like to add to my remarks above that the development of medical arts such as acupuncture from the same tradition involved empirical analysis that is "philosophical" in a way that is not discussed in the text.

Of old he who was well versed in the way
Was minutely subtle, mysteriously comprehending,
And too profound to be known.
It is because he could not be known
That he can only be given a makeshift description:
Tentative, as if fording a river in winter;
Hesitant, as if in fear of his neighbors;
Formal, like a guest;
Falling apart like thawing ice;
Thick like the uncarved block;
Vacant like a valley;
Murky like muddy water.
Who can be muddy and yet, settling, slowly become limpid?
Who can be at rest and yet, stirring, slowly come to life?
He who holds fast to this way
Desires not to be full.
It is because he is not full
That he can be worn and yet newly made. — Translated by D.C Lau. Book 1, verse 15 — Valentinus

I like this description. We like to think of ourselves as complete, whole, known (or at least knowable) in some substantial sense; that there exists some predetermined ‘essence’ of who we are, waiting to be discovered by ourselves and others. We continually lose and try to ‘find ourselves’, not realising that we are newly made by the variability of our ongoing relation to the world. The old masters didn’t assume or try to form an identity for themselves. By holding fast to the way, instead of holding fast to an identity or ‘known quantity’, they come across as unidentifiable, murky, passive and lacking in any apparent personality. It’s like trying to describe an electron. I especially like the phrase “formal, like a guest”.

The "holding fast" seems to involve both deliberate focus and bearing along with not doing what has to happen without his help. Desiring not to be full in contrast to desiring to be full. The intentions are hidden from others but is the one who is "holding fast" also hidden from themselves? — Valentinus

I don’t think they’re necessarily ‘hidden from themselves’. I think it’s that intentionality doesn’t collapse into intended action for them but rather remains wave-like. It isn’t about their own intentions, but about the flow of energy - the distribution of attention and effort as far as their awareness of it extends into the world. Perhaps it isn’t that their intentions are hidden, but that they comprise only one facet of this more complex flow of energy.

I don’t think they’re necessarily ‘hidden from themselves’. I think it’s that intentionality doesn’t collapse into intended action for them but rather remains wave-like. It isn’t about their own intentions, but about the flow of energy - the distribution of attention and effort as far as their awareness of it extends into the world. Perhaps it isn’t that their intentions are hidden, but that they comprise only one facet of this more complex flow of energy. — Possibility

Your description is a viable way to understand it. I certainly don't mean to say we could be an open book to ourselves such that we could start carving the uncarved block.

I think one role of "trying to describe what can't be really described" is the listener is being invited to look for this follower of the way in their own being. That an activity is underway that involves all of existence means that one is a part of it with varying levels of experience. One can start finding the "old follower" in experience that has already brought about good results. The power of metaphor can observe what precise explanations cannot. The elusive quality of "Falling apart like thawing ice" cuts through any list of qualities that can be expressed in other ways. All of our attempts to characterize it cannot add up to the "observation" we are being invited to participate in. Laozi is including his own efforts in that separation. But it doesn't mean we can avoid trying.

Why do we talk about emotions, perceptions and thoughts separately depending on the situation, when we don’t experience them as separately as these terms make out? — Possibility

I talk about my emotions, perceptions, and thoughts; but I also talk about my fingers, toes, and stomach. That doesn't keep me from thinking of my body as all one thing. The self, the body, or whatever you want to call it, is one of the 10,000 things. It can be separated into parts.

I think this highlights the three levels of awareness that are often confused/blended into one (verse 13), and the cascade structure (verse 16) that presents each level as merely one facet of another level of awareness/relation. — Possibility

I went back and looked at several versions of Verse 13 and I'm not sure what you mean by three levels. Do you mean body, self, life?

I recognize the cascade structure you describe in Verse 16. It's like a Russian doll. Here are the chains, from Ivanhoe:

• root;
• stillness.
• density destiny
• constancy.
• enlightenment.

• know constancy
• accommodate
• work for the good of all.
• be a true king.
• be Heavenly.
• embody the Way.
• be long lived,

I'm not sure what to say about this. It feels important. You say "presents each level as merely one facet of another level of awareness/relation." Do you mean that each level is part of the one below it in the same way we have been talking about self and body as being different facets of ourselves? I'm not sure about that.