• Fides Quaerens Intellectum
    36
    I believe that we should reject the idea of moral relativism for several reasons. All of these reasons can be summed up in the overly generalized, not really accurate, statement: No one actually believes it.

    Now of course any statement that makes this broad of a claim cannot be accurate but the preceding statement isn’t actually as broad as it sounds. The truth is that true moral relativists are hard to find. This is because true moral relativism is quite a horrifying thing. It requires an almost unbelievable amount of narcissism.

    As previously stated, moral relativism is the idea that morality is not a real thing and that we have just been conditioned to believe what we currently believe about right and wrong. The problem is that the vast majority of people who claim to believe this actually believe that there is one absolute good that should be elevated above the rest. The most common, and perhaps most noble version of relative moral relativism is that we should do what is best for society as a whole. It is not the only maxim however, appeals have been made to survival of humanity, progressing the human race, promoting the strong by eliminating the weak. A true relativist realizes that morality, if up to society, is really up to the individual. He would always do whatever he wanted regardless of the effect on society or survival of the human race.

    Some say a true relativist would want to promote the survival of the species in order to increase their chances of survival but why should he care if anyone survives besides him? Very few people would be ok with essentially sacrificing the good of the whole human race in order to live the way they wanted, but the moral relativist has no grounds to condemn such behavior. To go a step further, the moral relativist cannot claim that there even is a good of humanity.

    Most moral relativists, as stated above, are really absolutists who have just chosen another maxim to live their lives by than that of the current status quo. But that, argues the relative relativist, is the exact point, our maxims have changed over time where once we valued piety we now value individual liberties. We once valued combat ability but now we value argumentative ability. But a change in what a society values most does not necessarily mean a change in what a society sees as good. Piety is just a high level of integrity, combat ability is just an intense way of testing strength, individual liberty is merely saying to treat everyone fairly or to put it another way “Do unto others as you would have done unto you”, and argumentative ability is intelligence, wisdom, and tact. It may be true, maybe, that the amount of value we put on these things changes over time but the things themselves never change. Compare (if you will forgive me the cliche) apples and oranges. Apples may be worth more than oranges one day and less the next but no one is claiming that there is no such thing as fruit, merely that we value one over the other and someday for whatever reason we will value the other.

    Another issue, and what I consider to be the most damning argument, is that a moral relativist on some level has to equate all moral actions. If good and bad is merely up to society then whatever society says goes. Meaning that in the 1800’s southern US, slavery was good and anyone who opposed it, say a slave, was a moral delinquent. So if promoting the good of society is something to be strived for then, at that point, slave owners should be lauded where slaves are condemned.

    Most people are not this extreme however. Most relativists would claim that you could not call the slave immoral for going against what society said because there is no such thing as immoral. Now we have already established that most people do not think this way, even if they claim to, but let’s say for the sake of argument that they did. If a person truly believed this then he would say that all moral actions have the same value. What a slave owner did and what Harriet Tubman did are equally morally valuable, the same would go for saving the lives of a bunch of children and murdering those exact same children. There would be no moral scale, all things would be permissible. To a true moral relativist this would not be a problem, but even a true moral relativist would have to admit this is not the way most people think.

    On a side note the moral outrage that we are experiencing in our culture at present is not a result of a return to moral absolutism but instead a result of increased embracement of moral relativism. Anger over a moral injustice can be very useful, a mom protecting her child from a dangerous person, Martin Luther King Jr. fighting for civil rights, even Jesus used anger to right wrongs. But these people knew how to be slow to anger and only use as much as was necessary when the time came (with the possible exception of the mother, don’t mess with a mother’s child). On the other hand you have outrage, which by definition is an extreme form of anger, it does not stem from a desire to see justice, but instead a desire to satisfy one's individual discomfort. Note that a frequently outraged person often does not care about injustices that don’t affect them or that wouldn’t get them much attention. Outrage demands that we meet the desire of the outraged at once and does not allow for the possibility of the outraged party being wrong. Even if the outraged party is right to be angry, their method of combating immorality is concerned less with fixing the injustice than it is giving the angry person what they want. This sort of thing is indicative of a mindset that says my idea of good is just as good as anyone else’s

    Nothing I have said so far has been very revolutionary. The ideas I have presented above have been around for centuries and are so basic that it doesn’t take much philosophy to reach the same conclusion. Many non-philosophers, like me, have come to these conclusions very quickly. Yet many of them still subscribe to relativistic morals. This is because while almost no one is a true moral relativist there is a growing number of people who are intellectual relativists. A large amount of people have come to the conclusion that the only thing we know for sure is that we don’t know anything for sure. This comes, I believe, from an underdeveloped idea fed by an intense desire to live the lives we want, not the lives we should. This idea that we can’t know anything is specious at best.
    For one, if stated as stated above, the speaker is admitting that something is in fact knowable. But of course the aforementioned statement is really just a quaint way of broadly summing up the actual idea at hand. If the actual idea is that nothing is knowable then the only thing we have to do to disprove this theory is prove that at least one thing is knowable. If one thing is knowable then all things are knowable.

    When searching for a knowable thing one might be tempted to use facts such as the sky is blue, or one plus one equals two, but a post knowledge thinker would merely claim that the only reason that we say the sky is blue is because of our environment it may well be possible that there are people somewhere in the world who have the same understanding of blue but see the sky as bright yellow, we don’t know that this isn’t the case. Or in the case of one plus one equals two, because numbers are given their value by us, we can’t truly know if this is the way the universe works or if we made a mistake in numerical value. The key, I believe, lies in the pithy little saying from earlier. If nothing is knowable then, “the only thing we know for sure is that we don’t know anything for sure”, cannot be true. We cannot know that nothing is knowable if nothing is knowable. The phrase “We can’t know anything for sure”, is either true or false and we know that it cannot possibly be true. Therefore it must be false, there is no third option.

    So there it is, something that we know for sure. There is no theoretical way around this and if we know this one thing then we can theoretically learn everything. All questions have answers and we know that we can answer one of these questions. So we must necessarily have the potential to know the answers to the rest. For the only obstacle in our way was the idea that we couldn’t know anything and we’ve just cleared it.

    Now you may be wondering what any of this has to do with moral relativism. The reason I went through this whole process is that the modern moral relativist does not claim that there is no such thing as morality, but instead that we cannot know what is right or wrong, as if that’s a legitimate reason to abandon morality. We have just proven that it is theoretically possible to know what is right and wrong, but how. If one looks back at the history of civilization one can see values that transcend the ages from the ancient Babylonians to modern day Americans.

    Essentially every culture has valued loyalty, integrity, strength, fairness, respect, honesty and more. True there were cultures that raped and pillaged but I would be willing to bet a large sum of money that you would not find one that believed they were helping the people they attacked. Certainly none of these raiding cultures would want this to happen to their own people. Even pirates had laws that they followed.

    The transcendence of these morals prove to us that not only does morality exist but that it is possible to know it’s will. We may not always get it right, take slavery for example, but morality very clearly can and should be studied and promoted. If we continue down the path we are on, good people will cease to exist, humanity will be fully self serving, and if this mindset is followed to its end, humanity will eat itself. This appeal to moral “freedom” is really an appeal to survival of the fittest. Many people in America claim to promote progress and yet favor moral relativism. But if we adopted this mindset then the powerful would rule everyone and the weak would have no chance. We would actually be going in the opposite direction of where we wanted to be headed. Think of it this way, imagine that there was an idea that said there really is no such thing as science, and that that idea took hold. Would we not expect scientific progress to stop? In the same way, if our goal is to progress morality the only way forward is through absolutes.

    Moral relativism claims that morality is merely a whim of ours, so anyone who was powerful enough could impose their whims on us and we would have no basis to condemn them for doing so. Moral absolutism, however, claims that there is a moral law that all must follow, no matter whether they are a king, an activist group, or even a god. Absolute morality frees us from the yoke of the oppressor. We now have grounds to fight him. No matter how powerful a man gets there is always something more powerful which we can cling to and fight from. We can rally people who are being oppressed or mistreated, but how do we rally people if oppression and mistreatment do not actually exist? If ever we hope to achieve moral freedom for all then the bar must be standard and impartial and this can never be achieved by relative ethics.
  • Amalac
    489
    There is also a good logical objection against cultural/moral relativism mentioned by Martin Gardner:

    Many critics of cultural relativism have drawn attention to its central paradox. Since relativism developed in the subculture of modern anthropology, how can an anthropologist defending these views say that they are better than their opposites, without resorting to the same universal guidelines that they claim to deny? "If everything is relative," Hilary Putnam points out somewhere, "then so is the relative." A cultural relativist cannot even say that one culture is as good as another, since he has no objective criteria to define what is meant by "as good as."

    In his book Man and His Works: The Science of Cultural Anthropology, Melville J. Herskovits praised cultural relativism for its being tolerant towards all ethical norms. But some cultures do not respect tolerance. Why did Herskovits suppose that tolerance is more admirable than intolerance? He ends the book by saying that cultural relativism "takes man one step further in the search for what he should be." What should it be? If humanity should be different from what it is, what guidelines does Herskovits rely on to make this claim?
  • Fides Quaerens Intellectum
    36
    I like that. Thanks for posting. I'll have to check him out.
  • Amalac
    489


    It's from “The Whys of a Philosophical Scrivener”, great book, I highly recommend it.
  • Fides Quaerens Intellectum
    36
    It reminds me of what CS Lewis said in his "Poison of Subjectivism" -

    But how little it is now understood can be gauged from the procedure of the moral reformer who, after saying that “good” means “what we are conditioned to like” goes on cheerfully to consider whether it might be “better” that we should be conditioned to like something else. What in Heaven’s name does he mean by “better”?
  • Joshs
    5.7k


    “ My demand upon the philosopher is known, that he take his stand beyond good and evil and leave the illusion of moral judgment beneath himself. This demand follows from an insight which I was the first to formulate: that there are altogether no moral facts. Moral judgments agree with religious ones in believing in realities which are no realities. Morality is merely-an-interpretation of certain phenomena:more precisely, a misinterpretation. Moral judgments, like religious ones, belong to a stage of ignorance at which the very concept of the real and the distinction between what is real and imaginary, are still lacking; thus "truth," at this stage, designates all sorts of things which we today call "imaginings." Moral judgments are therefore never to be taken literally: so understood, they always contain mere absurdity.

    Morality, insofar as it condemns for its own sake, and not out of regard for the concerns, considerations, and contrivances of life, is a specific error with which one ought to have no pity-an idiosyncrasy of degenerates which has caused immeasurable harm. We others, we immoralists, have, conversely, made room in our hearts for every kind of understanding, comprehending, and approving. We do not easily negate; We make it a point of honor to be affirmers.”

    Friedrich Nietzsche, Twilight of the Idols
  • Joshs
    5.7k
    how can an anthropologist defending these views say that they are better than their opposites, without resorting to the same universal guidelines that they claim to deny?

    Simple, one can argue that from one’s own perspective one set of beliefs is preferable to another , without assuming that this perspective must be shoved down the throat of those who don’t see things in the same way. Put differently , one can assume that each of us is a sense-making being aiming to anticipate events, that what is in our best interest is understanding and assimilating the world. We only reject others to the extent that we are unable to understand their ways of thinking and acting. The issue of ‘evil’, then, is not one of ‘bad’ intent but of a failure of comprehension.

    The mistake of moralists is to assume that those on the opposite sides of moral or political debates can be grasping the ‘facts’ identically and yet reach different ethical conclusions based on ‘selfishness’ or some other unctuous accusation that we make of those whose thinking is inscrutable to us.

    What is needed is to attempt to help other to see, from their own perspective , what we find to be more insightful in dealing with people, rather than resorting to condemnation and moralistic blame. This rejects the concept of ‘universal guidelines’ because it assumes
    there are an infinity of ways of construing reality, and the usefulness of an particular way of dealing with others must be validated relative to each individual’s perspective. I think we can talk of a cultural
    progress in empathy , but as a personalistic pragmatic evolution and not a ‘universal principle’.
  • Fides Quaerens Intellectum
    36
    My question for Nietzsche would be: Why should we embrace his view? If moral judgments are mere imaginings then by what criteria does he judge that we should abandon them. Surely if this were the case it would make no difference whether we embraced or abandoned them.
  • Fides Quaerens Intellectum
    36
    What is needed is to attempt to help other to see, from their own perspective , what we find to be more insightful in dealing with people, rather than resorting to condemnation and moralistic blame.

    I fully agree with you. The fact that moral relativism is so appealing is likely due to the abuse of moral "authority" by governments or the Church and so on. What I am suggesting is not a strict enforcement of moral codes, as I see fit. Because how do I know that I am right? What i am suggesting is that it is possible for me to be wrong. We need a study of morality, which would include consideration of varying viewpoints. We need to study it in the same way we study math or science. You would not say that I am forcing it down your throat, if i insisted that 1+1=2.

    I will concede moral absolutist proponents often do try to force their beliefs down people's throats. But I would argue that this is not a necessary component of a belief in moral laws.
  • counterpunch
    1.6k


    If I might chip in to say - great thread, and I wholly agree - that both moral and epistemic relativism are toxic, and it's great to see that view being expressed so articulately. I immediately stole your C S Lewis quote for another thread. So, thanks for that.

    My question for Nietzsche would be: Why should we embrace his view?Fides Quaerens Intellectum

    Indeed! Having fallen into nihilism at one time - I used much the same rationale to escape the gaping maw of valuelessness; by realising, at last that nihilism upholds no value that requires one accept nihilism.

    I think Nietzsche's mistake however, was his assumption that man in a state of nature was an amoral brute - a self serving superman - fooled by the weak. Nietzsche knew very little of human evolutionary history. Man lived in hunter gatherer tribal groups that could not have survived if, morally - the individual were Nietzschean.
  • Joshs
    5.7k



    My question for Nietzsche would be: Why should we embrace his view? If moral judgments are mere imaginings then by what criteria does he judge that we should abandon them. Surely if this were the case it would make no difference whether we embraced or abandoned them.Fides Quaerens Intellectum

    Make sure you understand what you are embracing in embracing Nietzsche’s ‘view’ , because it is less a ‘view’ that it is a description of change and becoming itself.
    His ‘view’ is the principle of will to power. What that means is that humans are value posting creatures. He doesn’t mean we churn out value systems until we find the right one. There is no right or wrong value system. What matters is the movement from one system to the next, not the content of any particular system. His ‘view’, then, is split within itself as both the embrace of each value system as we fall into it or posit it , and the unraveling of that system and its replacement by another.
    We are all both creators and destroyers, but not ‘deliberately’ so. Regardless of what moral values we will, we find ourselves constantly overcoming ourselves , and our previous values. So its not a question of choosing his values over moral realism, but of recognizing that all value systems pre-suppose what Nietzsche is telling us. He doesn’t condemn us if we don’t get it , he is just saying that he thinks we would be healthier humans if we did recognize this. You can think of his approach as a kind of genealogical analysis of the history of morality. He’s offering us what he thinks is a clarifying way of looking at the very idea of morality. It is ‘true’ for everyone, but in a different way for each , and in the way that endless self-transformation is ‘true’
  • Amalac
    489
    Since relativism developed in the subculture of modern anthropology, how can an anthropologist defending these views say that they are better than their opposites, without resorting to the same universal guidelines that they claim to deny?

    This is the passage of Gardner that you quoted, in context. If the moral relativist says that no moral values can be better than others on the ground that they emerge from different cultures, since their moral relativism also comes from a particular culture, it also cannot be better than others, according to what the relativist himself says.

    If so, why should we believe what they say? I guess it would be a matter of taste and philosophical preference.

    What is needed is to attempt to help other to see, from their own perspective , what we find to be more insightful in dealing with people, rather than resorting to condemnation and moralistic blame.Joshs

    I agree with this, however suppose a moral relativist (I don't know if you are one) said this, then I ask:

    Why? How does the moral relativist know that it is better (morally) to trust his own ethical perspective rather than someone else's? If he is consistent, it would seem that he'll have to say that he also doesn't know that.

    But in that case, his decision to prefer his own perspective rather than other people's perspective is arbitrary, and therefore the moralist may retort that he has no right to say that that is “needed”.
  • Joshs
    5.7k
    What I am suggesting is not a strict enforcement of moral codes, as I see fit. Because how do I know that I am right? What i am suggesting is that it is possible for me to be wrongFides Quaerens Intellectum

    Whehther you are right or wrong is entirely relative to your own interpretation of the world for your purposes and whether your moral hypotheses continue to validate
    themselves ( appear useful and predictive ) over time
    relative to your outlook , regardless of what others in your culture may think is true or false. I don’t think your mora philosophy should be a matter or social consensus , even if , practically speaking, the political realization must involve consensus. Of course, it is important that you use others in your cultural as sources of evidence and validation for your view as much as possible. it this is different than assuming there is a ‘true’ or ‘false’ of moral valuation in some universal objective sense.
  • Joshs
    5.7k
    How does the moral relativist know that it is better (morally) to trust his own ethical perspective rather than someone else's? If he is consistent, It would seem that he'll have to say that he also doesn't know that.

    But in that case, his decision to prefer his own perspective rather than other people's perspective is arbitrary, and therefore the moralist may retort that he has no right to say that that is “needed”.
    Amalac

    You and I have no choice but to trust our own perspective because that is the only perspective that we have. Even when we trust someone else’s , we still have to interpret the other’s view though our own perspective , so there’s no getting around a personalistic vantage.

    Even when an entire culture assumes they are all following the same normative values , each is viewing it from their own vantage and interpretation, which is often invisible to them. Inevitably, and to their astonishment , they or someone else in their community is accused of straying from those values, and it never occurs to anyone that the issue is one of interpretation rather than deliberate deviation from the supposed true path.

    The problem is the assumption of the idea of a true or universal or objective path. That is the source immorality, the positing of a true path in the fist place , rather than the straying from it.
  • Tom Storm
    9.1k
    But if we adopted this mindset then the powerful would rule everyone and the weak would have no chance. We would actually be going in the opposite direction of where we wanted to be headed.Fides Quaerens Intellectum

    Is this not the direction we are going in?

    Do you think you can put your argument into a syllogism?

    The problem of morality - which you have essentially described as a code of conduct - isn't resolved so much in how people behave and how they want to be treated, but in the justification of applied ethics. What would give someone the authority to say the ethical behaviour of any given tribe or culture is wrong?
  • Amalac
    489


    You and I have no choice but to trust our own perspective because that is the only perspective that we have. Even when we trust someone else’s , we still have to interpret the other’s view though our own perspective , so there’s no getting around a personalistic vantage.Joshs

    If that is what you mean, then there is no meaning in calling a perspective “one's own perspective” rather than “someone else's perspective”, since it couldn't be any other way.

    Why do moral relativists bother trying to suggest that others should act differently then, if everyone, without exception, acts according to their own perspective? There is no point for the moral relativist to say anything about moral relativism then, since so interpreted it's just trivial.

    But the question is precisely: Does the moral relativist claim that we should not trust someone else (A moralist, for example) who says that the moral relativist is wrong?

    If so, how do they know that that is a better way of acting than its opposite?

    If they don't know, shouldn't they be more cautious by not expressing their views, since they may be wrong? Shouldn't they suspend judgement? (Though I guess they would argue that this would also be a moral exhortation).

    Here, It doesn't matter if you say that in both cases one would act according to one's own perspective, what matters is whether it is better to accept what others say (even dogmatically) after interpreting them and translating them to one's own perspective, or only to trust one's own moral ideas.

    If the relativist says that one should not trust what the moralist says, he should tell us on what grounds he came to that conclusion if he wants to be convincing.

    And another question: Why should I believe what you just said? (In the passage I quoted here)

    If you say I don't have to believe you unless from my perspective I determine that you are right, then you'd be assuming that you are right without proof, since that is only true if what you said before is true, and your hypotetical response would be what is supposed to justify what you said before (what I quoted at the beggining) , making your argument circular and question begging.

    And I would once again ask the same question, and this could go on forever.

    This kind of self-referential paradox seems inescapable, since even if you say ad infinitum that you don't claim that I should believe you or that you know if what you say is true, I can always ask ad infinitum: How do you know that you are not claiming implicitly that I should believe you?

    How do you know that you are not implicitly claiming that you know that what you say is morally preferable?
  • Joshs
    5.7k
    If that is what you mean, then there is no meaning in calling a perspective “one's own perspective” rather than “someone else's perspective”, since it couldn't be any other way.Amalac

    Of course, I can still make a distinction between my perspective and someone else’s , but only as filtered though my vantage on their outlook.

    Why do moral relativists bother trying to suggest that others should act differently then, if everyone, without exception, acts according to their own perspective? There is no point for the moral relativist to say anything about moral relativism then, since so interpreted it's just trivial.Amalac

    I’m not a moral relativist. I side with those philosophers who don’t find concepts like morality and ethics to be coherent or useful. As I see it, the moral is supposed to pertain to matters of will and deliberate intent , of values, goals and subjective inclinations.

    I reject the idea that there is such as thing as bad or immoral intent or evil will, only problems having to with ineffective interpersonal understanding.

    As I understand it, moral relativists , and there are many on this site, do believe that intent can be distorted , subverted or corrupted, but they don’t believe that any universal rule or principle of the mora can ever be located, not Kant’s imperative or the golden rule. Kierkegaard and liberal theologians like him are compatible with certain forms of moral relativism, offering that though faith and action one can affirm that some transcendent idea of the good is at work, but not one that can ever be reduced to a rule or concept.

    Does the moral relativist claim that we should not trust someone else (A moralist, for example) who says that the moral relativist is wrong?

    If so, how do they know that that is a better way of acting than its opposite?
    Amalac

    I can’t answer this for moral relativists , but for myself and like-minded philosophers I will say that I don’t view theories, worldviews , values and other forms of knowledge as either right or wrong in any absolute way.
    For me , all value systems are right in that they are useful to a community or individual in making of sense of and guiding their relationship with others. But as I mentioned , I believe that value systems like science , evolves. I believe that newer approaches mostly subsume older ones rather than simply proving them ‘wrong’. So if I ‘reject’ moral realism it s not that I think it is ‘wrong, but that I believe my ‘immoral’ approach enriches and transforms moral thinking. So am I ‘right’, and what would that mean? I think there are three possibilities with respect to any claim I make to having come upon a ‘better’ way. 1) My approach subsumes previous systems and so may be invisible and subject to misinterpretation by those who are not ready to assimilate its concepts.
    2)My approach is just a re-invention of the wheel. It is just a variation on perspectives that are already out there.
    3) My ideas are internally inconsistent and so don’t make sense to others.

    If my approach indeed subsumes other approaches and goes beyond them in some way, I should be able to demonstrate this to myself , if not to others, by demonstrating to them that I fully understand their position and can see the world in a way that closely approximates their thinking. This is up to them , not me, to confirm. So what I’ve done is shown myself that I have options of acting that they don’t. I can see the world in the way they do, as a place that is amenable to moral determinations, but also via my enriched perspective, which sees what they see but also a lot more. [

    quote="Amalac;514580"]How do you know that you are not implicitly claiming that you know that what you say is morally preferable?[/quote]

    How do you know that you are not claiming implicitly that I should believe you?

    How do you know that you are not implicitly claiming that you know that what you say is morally preferable?
    Amalac



    It’s a matter of my lifting up a rock and asking you what you see. You describe a few insects and other things. I can see what you see but also much more. I know you can’t see what I can see although I try to point those items out. Why can’t you see them? Is it simply an empirical or sensory question? It gets complicated here because we have to get into issues of philosophy of science, materialism vs idealism vs phenomenology.

    I don’t find concepts of truth and falsity with respect to issues of empirical fact to be any more useful than with respect to values, Since I follow those who recognize the value-laden ness of facts.

    What we strive for in ‘moral’ and empirical truth is not corresponding our ideas and values to an independently existing world , but co-constructing a world that is in a continual state of becoming, so facts
    and values are creations that don’t mirror , but transformingly develop a world. We can invent any old world we want , but some of those construals will speak back to us more usefully than others.
  • SophistiCat
    2.2k
    As previously stated, moral relativism isFides Quaerens Intellectum

    Previously stated - where?

    You are right that it's hard to imagine someone actually holding all the outrageous beliefs that you attribute to "true moral relativists." But then why do you waste so much effort beating on this strawman? And why do you insist on calling it "true moral relativism?" If anything, the closest thing that comes to mind is moral nihilism.

    Most moral relativists, as stated above, are really absolutistsFides Quaerens Intellectum

    There's that "as stated above" again. Is this a cut-and-paste from somewhere?
  • Fides Quaerens Intellectum
    36
    I think we are actually in agreement on this whole issue. I think you are right in how we should discuss moral issues except when you say that this interpretation needs to be done without a set standard. In your metaphor with the rock we are describing what we see from our vantage points, but "under the rock" must exist independently of us if we are to discuss what it is.
  • Fides Quaerens Intellectum
    36
    I originally wrote this for a Christian theology/philosophy group I host. There were originally a few paragraphs preceding this that I directed at the professed Christian. I cut it out because the argument had very little if any philosophical value. It essentially boiled down to "the Bible says so", which is a fantastic argument if you are talking to people who believe the Bible is the divinely inspired Word of God. If you don't believe that then it is pretty well worthless. I forgot I made reference to it later.

    As to why I point out the outrageous beliefs of true moral relativists, is to point out to those who claim to believe in it without giving it much thought, where their supposed worldview gets them. I was trying to point out that the "relative relativist" is an fact an absolutist. It is my belief that only total moral devotion or total moral abandonment make any rational sense.

    However I didn't really make that very clear thanks for pointing that out.
  • Pinprick
    950
    The problem of morality - which you have essentially described as a code of conduct - isn't resolved so much in how people behave and how they want to be treated, but in the justification of applied ethics. What would give someone the authority to say the ethical behaviour of any given tribe or culture is wrong?Tom Storm

    :up:
  • Fides Quaerens Intellectum
    36
    I suppose my argument could be stated as:

    1. Moral relativism claims that there is no independent moral standard.
    2. Judgements of value cannot be made without an independent standard.
    3. Actions have value.
    4. Therefore moral relativism is false.

    I think that's valid. I apologize if it isn't I am a philosophy novice.

    What would give someone the authority to say the ethical behaviour of any given tribe or culture is wrong?

    The same thing that would give one the authority to tell someone that 1+1 doesn't equal 3. If the laws of morality are independent of me then I can appeal to the laws of morality to criticize someone's moral view. They also have the right to criticize mine. Granted moral judgments are not as simple as 1+1=2, they are going to take a lot of discussion and no one will likely ever be able to say that their morality is right. My argument is simply that there is a moral right and moral wrong, without which our moral rebukes, including the thought that we should not subscribe to set moral laws, are groundless.
  • Aaron R
    218
    I believe that we should reject the idea of moral relativism for several reasons. All of these reasons can be summed up in the overly generalized, not really accurate, statement: No one actually believes it.Fides Quaerens Intellectum

    Well, moral relativism could still be true even if no one believed it.

    Most moral relativists, as stated above, are really absolutists who have just chosen another maxim to live their lives by than that of the current status quoFides Quaerens Intellectum

    Not necessarily. A moral relativist may be conservative by nature, and may have simply come to the conclusion (upon reflection) that no moral claims are absolutely true.

    Moral relativism claims that morality is merely a whim of oursFides Quaerens Intellectum

    You should really try to site some sources on this. Some moral relativists might claim this, but I am guessing that most sophisticated relativists would not. A sophisticated relativist may believe that morality has deep evolutionary/biological roots, but that specific moral claims are neither true nor false in any absolute sense.

    ---

    There are many more similar comments that could made in response to your post. I feel that you should spend some time studying up on the subject in order to aim your critique at more sophisticated versions of the theory.
  • Tom Storm
    9.1k
    My argument is simply that there is a moral right and moral wrong, without which our moral rebukes, including the thought that we should not subscribe to set moral laws, are groundless.Fides Quaerens Intellectum

    I don't have any philosophy background either so for what it's worth, my take. Thanks for the syllogism. It clarifies your argument.

    quote="Fides Quaerens Intellectum;514651"]
    1. Moral relativism claims that there is no independent moral standard.
    2. Judgements of value cannot be made without an independent standard.
    3. Actions have value.
    4. Therefore moral relativism is false.[/quote]

    2. is not accurate. Judgements are made according to cultural standards and custom and personal preferences - these are not objective but may be shared by many. Relativism does not deny there are independent standards, it just says that there are many of these standards and they are not shared, they differ between folks and assessing one against the other isn't possible.

    There are a couple of additional points:

    If we hold a position that there is a right way to behave morally but we may be unable to identify or justify this conclusively, then how is this different in practical terms to relativism? My default could be to accept any action until you demonstrate how it is wrong.

    The strong intuition people have against certain taboos and actions perhaps says more about socialization and culture than anything else. You can say killing is wrong in almost all cultures but that is not specific enough. In some cultures infanticide is or was practiced, or human sacrifice/wife burning, etc. Killing is subject to interpretations. Drilling down into specific actions helps clarify the moral morass that is human behavior.

    Objective ethics? They could be considered objective subject to an agreed presupposition. If you agree that all moral behavior should be assessed by their impact on human flourishing (for instance) then it may be possible to build close to objective standards. However, you have to agree to the presupposition. Therein lies a problem.
  • Fides Quaerens Intellectum
    36
    Could you present to me a sophisticated argument for moral relativism. I read several defenses of moral relativism but hey all appealed to some transcendent good that we should follow instead of what we currently have. Usually they claim that moral relativism is better because it promotes tolerance. They then go on to say that tolerance should be our number one concern, but I don't see how that argument is different from moral absolutism.
  • Fides Quaerens Intellectum
    36
    You can say killing is wrong in almost all cultures but that is not specific enough. In some cultures infanticide is or was practiced, or human sacrifice/wife burning, etc. Killing is subject to interpretations. Drilling down into specific actions helps clarify the moral morass that is human behavior.Tom Storm

    I may be mistaken but I don't believe that human sacrifices were ever done because they thought that human sacrifice in and of itself was a good thing. They were always done to gain favor from the gods or demonstrate a leaders power. The cliche example of sacrificing virgins in order to prevent a volcano was done not to promote sacrifice but rather to promote the health of the entire village.

    You would not, I'm assuming, be ok with human sacrifice taking place today. But your aversion to the practice wouldn't be because you want everyone to die in a volcanic eruption. It would be because senseless killing is wrong and you do not believe that sacrificing a human would prevent natural disasters.

    If we hold a position that there is a right way to behave morally but we may be unable to identify or justify this conclusively, then how is this different in practical terms to relativism?Tom Storm

    I did not word my argument well. What I should have said is that any one person cannot claim to be right about morality. Any single person who claims to have all the moral answers is as foolish as a man who claims to have all the mathematical or scientific answers. However through study and discovery we, together, can be right about morality.
    Also understanding that there is an answer we don't know is different from saying there is no answer at all. put it in terms of scientific discovery. What is the origin of life? We do not, and perhaps never wiil, know the answer but we study this only because we believe there is an answer? If we believed that there was no answer to the question we wouldn't give it a second thought. For example why is the Earth flat? Most of us do not believe the Earth is flat so we do not spend time trying to figure out the answer to the preceding question. There is no answer. My argument is that if you say that there is no morality then moral progress would stop.

    My default could be to accept any action until you demonstrate how it is wrong.Tom Storm

    How would you demonstrate that it is wrong without an objective idea of wrong?

    2. is not accurate. Judgements are made according to cultural standards and custom and personal preferences - these are not objective but may be shared by many. Relativism does not deny there are independent standards, it just says that there are many of these standards and they are not shared, they differ between folks and assessing one against the other isn't possible.Tom Storm

    Where do these cultural standards come from? From what I can see cultural standards are derived from absolutes. It is merely that one culture values on standard above the other. The early American south prioritized production over humanity. We rejected slavery not because we don't value production but because we value humanity so much more. You see all of the standards are the same it is just the amount of value we place on these standards that changes. I would argue that we should be able to put these standards in a hierarchy, and that fervent study of morality will teach us how to do so.
  • Judaka
    1.7k

    Many of the problems you've brought up with moral relativity are intellectually sound based on the belief but do not take into account the social, economic, cultural, biological circumstances which impose limitations on how moral relativism actually operates in the real world. Intellectually, a moral relativist can abandon social convention, act in accordance with what they think is right and essentially reinvent morality because, without an immutable moral code, there's nothing stopping them from doing that. However, in reality, there's a great deal stopping them from doing that.

    Legally, culturally and socially, there could be severe consequences for me if I should fail to comply with established norms. My relationships could suffer, my finances could suffer, my opportunities reduced. I may invite ridicule, scorn and mockery by presenting my "out-there" ideas to others. Without going on about it, I can deviate from standard morality only if I'm in a position where I can avoid or resist these consequences and that's going to be difficult for most people.

    Logically, biologically, psychologically, there are just some moral ideas that are really, let's say, philosophically formidable. You mention things like fairness, loyalty, integrity but what does a moral relativist need to abandon to genuinely go against many of these time tested values? I think in most cases, it's more than they're able but they would rarely want to in the first place. Even before society forces me to not be an asshole, I'm psychologically attuned to the concept of fairness, I'm more likely to be able to see merit in being a responsible and loyal person, I can see what the world would be like if certain values were abandoned. I'm not saying people can't choose the less travelled road but that what you likely consider the moral path is attractive for many reasons besides a philosophical belief in moral truth.

    The moral relativist's intellectual freedom is simply insignificant in comparison to the outside pressure when it comes to the moulding of their moral outlook. Even if we started a new colony of hardcore, narcissistic moral relativists, we would definitely see them practice a very similar moral code to what exists today given time.

    The driving force for changes in moral outlook has been changes in these outside circumstances. It's not about "getting it right", it's about understanding that morality is moulded through everchanging outside circumstances and there's no way to halt this. It matters as little that the slavers thought they were objectively morally correct that you might think such-and-such is objectively morally correct, time will change these outside circumstances and moral views will shift in accordance with these changes. History at least has the clear message that whether you think your views are objectively correct or subjective, those views are going to transform in time regardless.

    Historically and today, moral absolutism has not actually been an impediment to the powerful and there's really no denying that. Kings literally viewed themselves as divine and saw opposition to them as very seriously morally condemnable. Moral relativism at least makes it obvious that the king is simply doing whatever is convenient for them and is just one person, moral absolutism made them believe that they were objectively correct for doing what they did. You can still see this today with religions like Islam in many countries, moral absolutism there unambiguously enshrines gender discrimination as a moral necessity. Across the world, many governments see homosexuality as objectively immoral, the oppressed homosexual has absolutely no recourse.

    I think moral relativism is genuinely better for society than moral absolutism. Under moral absolutism, the stakes can go high, our disagreement is a literal fight for the moral goodness of our society whereas, under moral relativism, people can just accept that different people have different views and sometimes that's okay. Under moral relativism, saying something like "homosexuality is wrong" really demands some logical justification, because your moral opinion just doesn't matter that much when it's already accepted that people are going to disagree. Moral absolutism can be much more forceful because people who disagree with you are actually just morally wrong for doing so, that's not theory, that's just the reality in many countries. You are not entering a debate about i.e homosexuality, you are questioning a moral absolute and that makes things so difficult.

    I think more relativistic societies are better places to live and more moral according to my views than societies that practice more absolute morality. I don't believe that's a coincidence, honestly and fairly debating moral issues is just more difficult when morality is absolute and dislodging harmful moral views is much more difficult.

    Perhaps most importantly, moral absolutism is just a logically flawed concept, it will never be like science because science is the study of real-world implications whereas morality is a code for behaviour. Refuting a scientific fact without evidence is like banging your head against a wall and saying the wall doesn't exist, the reality described by the scientific fact still operates how it does regardless of your opinion. Whereas even if you say that honesty is objectively virtuous, regardless of your argumentation or proof, I can simply disagree with you. I can lie as I choose and whether that turns out well or poorly for me is independent of your opinion. Even God needed hell and heaven, otherwise, what does it matter if you disobey the commandments? They're just words.
  • SophistiCat
    2.2k
    As to why I point out the outrageous beliefs of true moral relativists, is to point out to those who claim to believe in it without giving it much thought, where their supposed worldview gets them.Fides Quaerens Intellectum

    And who would those people be? I mean, who would be the people who actually believe all the stuff you say they believe? Your mistake, I think, is in ascribing so many attributes to "true moral relativists" that hardly anyone would recognize themselves in your characterization. And that makes the whole project into an exercise in futility.

    It would be better to target a more realistic position for your criticism, like you did here:

    1. Moral relativism claims that there is no independent moral standard.
    2. Judgements of value cannot be made without an independent standard.
    3. Actions have value.
    4. Therefore moral relativism is false.
    Fides Quaerens Intellectum

    Now, "Moral relativism claims that there is no independent moral standard" is something that we could possibly work with - if it can be made clear what you mean by independent standard. Independent of what any people believe? As if it was woven into the fabric of the universe - or the mind of God?

    But how does (2) follow? You give examples of broad trends and commonalities in moral beliefs, but how does that show that they stem from some mind-independent standards? What you describe is perfectly consistent with morality being a product (or byproduct) of human nature and history. Why would we need to appeal to anything beyond that to explain these facts?
  • Fides Quaerens Intellectum
    36
    You seem to be equating moral absolutism with moral inflexibility. Moral absolutism does not make the claim that our current understanding of morality is true, merely that moral truth exists, whether we know it or not. Moral relativism claims that there is no moral truth.

    Historically and today, moral absolutism has not actually been an impediment to the powerful and there's really no denying that.Judaka

    To this I would offer this CS Lewis quote.

    Correct thinking will not make good men of bad ones; but a purely theoretical error may remove ordinary checks to evil and deprive good intentions of their natural support.

    What you say is true but under moral relativism what ground do you have to condemn the actions of, say, the Pharaohs who used slaves to build monuments to themselves?

    Across the world, many governments see homosexuality as objectively immoral, the oppressed homosexual has absolutely no recourse.Judaka

    The only recourse I can see is for them to prove, or at least make a case for, the opposite absolute. "Homosexuality is wrong" is either a correct or incorrect statement. Which one it is is dependent upon a moral truth one way or the other. But if there is no moral truth then oppressive society is just as correct as the oppressed.

    I don't believe that's a coincidence, honestly and fairly debating moral issues is just more difficult when morality is absolute and dislodging harmful moral views is much more difficult.Judaka

    In order to prove my point I ask you to answer the following questions based on this passage:

    1. Why does it matter that we discuss morality fairly?
    2. What do you mean by harmful?
  • Fides Quaerens Intellectum
    36
    And who would those people be? I mean, who would be the people who actually believe all the stuff you say they believe? Your mistake, I think, is in ascribing so many attributes to "true moral relativists" that hardly anyone would recognize themselves in your characterization. And that makes the whole project into an exercise in futility.SophistiCat

    No one believes this, that I know of. My point is that the horrific beliefs that I described are the end result of moral relativism. I have never met someone who would embrace the ideas I posed however. My intent with this argument was to point out that because moral relativism claims morality as an invention of humanity, almost no human, at least that I know of, would be ok with the morality that moral relativism represents.

    Independent of what any people believe? As if it was woven into the fabric of the universe - or the mind of God?SophistiCat

    This is indeed what I mean by independent standard.

    But how does (2) follow? You give examples of broad trends and commonalities in moral beliefs, but how does that show that they stem from some mind-independent standards? What you describe is perfectly consistent with morality being a product (or byproduct) of human nature and history. Why would we need to appeal to anything beyond that to explain these facts?SophistiCat

    This is an excerpt from another writing I did:

    A person may think he circumvents morality by claiming that it is merely a creation of the weak to hold back the strong, and therefore should be abandoned. But if there is no actual morality then why should it matter if the weak hold back the strong? He would argue that it is for survival purposes, but why should the survival of humanity have any importance? Perhaps it’s time for us to bow out and let penguins rule the world.

    The problem with this argument is that it seeks to disprove good, better, and best, by proving what is best. The arguer may not call it morality but his values are based on a prior existing good, namely survival. He does not appeal to the value all life should be protected but he does concede that some life should be. He draws his conclusion from an assumption that his readers will know survival to be good, how could this be though if goodness is not real?

    PS-I understand that you are not claiming that morality is just a method for the weak to hold back the strong, but I hope this example illustrates my point.

    Also if you would like a more intelligent argument that makes the same points I would encourage you to read "The Poison of Subjectivism" by CS Lewis. It is very short and you can find the whole thing online at various sources.
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