Taxes

javi2541997

According to Oxford Dictionary the significance of taxes is: A compulsory contribution to state revenue, levied by the government on workers' income and business profits, or added to the cost of some goods, services, and transactions
One of the modern debates is if paying taxes is actually profitable or... ethical Because somehow we wish the people at least can share a little bit to improve the world we live in. But... this in reality does not happen at all. There are lot of millionaires that don’t want to pay taxes so they put all the income in secret bank countries like Bermudas. They think it is not profitable paying taxes because they are losing money just to plump the State. Are they right? Well check this example of three different countries.

Switzerland: secret bank/tax haven country. GDP $749 billion. Per capita $86.000. HDI 2nd place.
Spain: very taxation system and country. GDP $1.14 trillion. Per capita $31.000. HDI 25th place.
United States: the reference of occidental capitalism. GDP $20.8 trillion. Per capita $63.000. HDI 17th.
Source: https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/WEO/weo-database/2020/October/weo-report?c=111,&s=NGDPD,PPPGDP,NGDPDPC,PPPPC,&sy=2019&ey=2025&ssm=0&scsm=1&scc=0&ssd=1&ssc=0&sic=0&sort=country&ds=.&br=1

Impressive data. As you can see literally the country which does not invest in taxation has the best quality life system ($86.000 per capita is quite a lot and 2nd place HDI). So what is happening here?
Spanish workers are wasting a lot of their income for public services but they do not seem as good as Swiss ones, also the income per capita is so damn low... so we, as Spaniards, we just work to plump the State?

Here is where the debate starts: is profitable paying taxes? Then, if it is, is the problem that State do not how to administrate it?

T Clark

the country which does not invest in taxation has the best quality life — javi2541997

Switzerland has federal and provincial income taxes, although the rates are significantly lower than in the US. There are no capital gains taxes for many transactions but there is a wealth tax.

creativesoul

Taxes are necessary for government and society to function... in the States anyway. Best thought of as user fees.

The collective idea that taxes are bad... the scare tactic of "they will raise taxes" and the like has done a horrible disservice to America as a whole since Reagan.

BitconnectCarlos

↪T Clark

This sounds like a good system. Capital gains tax is terrible and disincentivizes investing and also makes taxes extremely, extremely cumbersome here in the US. Here in the US I don't think a wealth tax is too popular, but if it meant no capital gains tax then I'd probably be for that arrangement. I'd be curious to know at what wealth level that tax starts though and how high it is.

TheMadFool

Not to say that I don't pay taxes but I have no clue about taxes by which I mean I haven't read up on the rationale of taxation as a government policy.

All that I can say is that to oppose taxes seems to be irrational. What happens to all the tax revenue a government accumulates? It goes into essentials such as infrastructure development, maintenance, revamping, paying government employees, financing activities of national importance and so on. In other words, taxes are spent on the taxpayers and the "best" part is the tax-funded projects outlined above not only benefit the individual but also society as a whole and that too for generations to come. In effect the tax you pay is spent by the government on you. I see no good reason to feel like someone has stolen your money unless you want to admit that you stole from yourself.

javi2541997

there is a wealth tax — T Clark

As you perfectly say. The problem is how bad taxes are distributed in countries. Probably Switzerland has taxes but not as much as Spain (promise) and look the different wealth ratio. It is just impressive and I am here thinking paying taxes is for nothing but it looks like the State is guilty at all.

Taxes are necessary for government and society to function... in the States anyway. Best thought of as user fees. — creativesoul

Of course it is. We have to share the wealth to make a more developed country. But here we have another dilemma of how much should be the public expenditure. I am not trying saying here that if you are poor you do not deserve participate in society and it’s public service but it amazes me how Switzerland as a tax haven has that quality of life. Because sometimes having rich people does not mean equality but this country does. So probably as @T Clark said previously the key here is being more clever in the use of taxes.

javi2541997

All that I can say is that to oppose taxes seems to be irrational. What happens to all the tax revenue a government accumulates? It goes into essentials such as infrastructure development, maintenance, revamping, paying government employees, financing activities of national importance and so on. — TheMadFool

Yes. Agree. This is supposed to be right? Public expenditure is profitable. But... why US and Spain (both taxation countries) are lower in the HDI index than a secret bank/tax haven country like Switzerland? It is so much interesting. Because sometimes it looks like the revenue that the government gets are not well distributed. Imagine having TRILLIONS of dollars and being in the 17th position... there is something that the government makes wrong.
But yes it is really complex because US has a lot of citizens. So this makes it harder (you have more population than Spain and Switzerland together) I guess in terms of administration.

javi2541997

Capital gains tax is terrible and disincentivizes investing — BitconnectCarlos

There also a lot of people who defends this. Taxes are not so profitable so the public is wasteful. Paying a lot of taxes do not contribute to motivation in investing so they just travel to another country with low capital/income taxes.

NOS4A2

↪javi2541997

If a neighbor told us we need to make a compulsory contribution to their revenue we’d cry “Extortion!”. But when the government does it we call it “taxes”.

It is legal robbery, plain and simple.

synthesis

You want low taxes and real money.

Prices in the U.S. were cheaper on January 1, 1900 then they were on January 1, 1800.

Imagine that!!

tim wood

It is legal robbery, plain and simple. — NOS4A2

Who pays for infrastructure and services in your community?

Tom Storm

I don't mind paying taxes. I live in a community.

“I like to pay taxes. With them, I buy civilization.” Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes

tim wood

Capital gains tax is terrible and disincentivizes investing — BitconnectCarlos

You do understand that capital gains are a kind of income, yes? You do understand that infrastructure and services cost money, yes? And you do understand that taxes, however structured, are simply an attempt at an equitable distribution of cost? Except in the US, and resurgent with Reagan and since, that strategies to enact laws to enrich the rich and make them richer have been the business of the rich at which they've been successful to a degree that Louis XIV would envy. But (if I've got my Louis right) they are close to his fate. Though they may not ride the tumbril, their excesses may yet encompass their entire destruction. Those rich who are smart say, "We should pay more taxes." The likes of Buffet and Gates already self-tax in their forms of charity. But too many of the rest possess no such wisdom or civic good sense. For them, wealth tax, as much as necessary. And capital gains and inheritance as well. No reasonable person could object, and the unreasonable have held sway for too long, and at a cost too great.

Gus Lamarch

It is legal robbery, plain and simple. — NOS4A2

Couldn't have said it better.

NOS4A2

↪tim wood

Who pays for infrastructure and services in your community?

Those who have money to take.

javi2541997

Prices in the U.S. were cheaper on January 1, 1900 then they were on January 1, 1800. — synthesis

This is a good example Philosophy of Economics. It is just amazing how we give more value/credit to the currency depending the times. It is so abstract when Wall Street or Madrid Stock Change determines the value of a coin. It reminds me about 1929 crack and money hadn’t any value. But well it did not end bad when American Dollar is the strongest currency in the world despite some consequences.
Probably the deflation in January 1, 1900 occurred because civil war in the United United in the last years of XIXth century. (It is just my guess I am not a specialist in Economics).

NOS4A2

↪Gus Lamarch

Admittedly the idea comes from Frederic Bastiat in his book The Law. It’s a great read.

tim wood

Those who have money to take. — NOS4A2

And how are they robbed? Nor this a question of whether or not some people are robbed - maybe some have been. But how is an assessment for benefits provided a robbery?

NOS4A2

↪tim wood

And how are they robbed? Nor this is not a question of whether or not some people are robbed - maybe some have been. But how is an assessment for benefits provided a robbery?

Try refusing to pay taxes to see what happens. But it has become so common place that we now do it before they show up with shackles and their guns drawn.

Gus Lamarch

And how are they robbed? — tim wood

The State is so well established that you don't even consider its act of appropriating your own property as theft.

This is not just a matter of material control, but also of psychological "indoctrination".

The point is that, the individual never needed a mediator between itself and others to achieve success. The State takes your full potential, cuts it in half, takes a part, the other piece he gives to you and exclaims: - Success!

Pinprick

Not to say that I don't pay taxes but I have no clue about taxes by which I mean I haven't read up on the rationale of taxation as a government policy. — TheMadFool

Same here.

All that I can say is that to oppose taxes seems to be irrational. What happens to all the tax revenue a government accumulates? It goes into essentials such as infrastructure development, maintenance, revamping, paying government employees, financing activities of national importance and so on. In other words, taxes are spent on the taxpayers and the "best" part is the tax-funded projects outlined above not only benefit the individual but also society as a whole and that too for generations to come. — TheMadFool

I think it’s at least debatable that tax-funded projects benefit everyone equally. For example, not all public schools are equal, and it too often is the case that schools in predominantly low income and black districts are not funded enough to support quality education. That said, I can see the rationale of low income and/or minority families not wanting to pay taxes, since they aren’t seeing the benefits that they so desperately need.

tim wood

↪NOS4A2

↪Gus Lamarch

Each of you, try to identify something, anything in your lives that you want, need, or benefit from, that government, i.e., taxes, have had nothing to do with. I will be surprised if you can come up with even one single thing.

litewave

As you can see literally the country which does not invest in taxation has the best quality life system ($86.000 per capita is quite a lot and 2nd place HDI). So what is happening here? — javi2541997

On the other hand, Nordic countries have high taxes and their HDIs are in Top 10 or so.

Tax havens attract foreign capital which can boost the country's economy and the government then collects substantial tax revenue even at lower rates. But if every country was a tax haven, the low tax rate would not be an incentive for capital to move, so I guess it wouldn't pay off.

litewave

It is legal robbery, plain and simple. — NOS4A2

Who should pay for street lights when anybody can freely benefit from them?

BitconnectCarlos

↪tim wood

You do understand that capital gains are a kind of income, yes? You do understand that infrastructure and services cost money, yes? And you do understand that taxes, however structured, are simply an attempt at an equitable distribution of cost? Except in the US, and resurgent with Reagan and since, that strategies to enact laws to enrich the rich and make them richer have been the business of the rich at which they've been successful to a degree that Louis XIV would envy. But (if I've got my Louis right) they are close to his fate. Though they may not ride the tumbril, their excesses may yet encompass their entire destruction. Those rich who are smart say, "We should pay more taxes." The likes of Buffet and Gates already self-tax in their forms of charity. But too many of the rest possess no such wisdom or civic good sense. For them, wealth tax, as much as necessary. And capital gains and inheritance as well. No reasonable person could object, and the unreasonable have held sway for too long, and at a cost too great. — tim wood

I'm not sure how to respond to this, Tim. You make like 10 different points and all I was talking about was at the very least reforming if not cancelling capital gains tax, a tax which affects everyone who has a capital gain regardless of income level or wealth. This isn't about keeping the rich in check and preventing social upheaval, this is about reforming our tax structure in a way that's remotely sensible where people aren't sending in hundreds of pages of taxes where everyone of their transactions is documented... it's just a very outdated system and we should find a better way to tax, like how the Swiss system does it.

This isn't about Reagan, this isn't about King Louis, this is about making things simpler and enacted smarter regulation.

NOS4A2

↪tim wood

Each of you, try to identify something, anything in your lives that you want, need, or benefit from, that government, i.e., taxes, have had nothing to do with. I will be surprised if you can come up with even one single thing.

I want the government to stay out of my way, and at most to defend my rights and liberty.

It’s difficult to identify such a thing because statism is very prevalent. It has taken over our lives to that extent. But the prevalence of statism surely isn’t an argument in favour of it.

NOS4A2

↪litewave

Who should pay for street lights when anybody can freely benefit from them?

Those who want to do so voluntarily.

litewave

Those who want to do so voluntarily. — NOS4A2

Yeah, because economy works when stuff is given for free and people pay for it voluntarily.

Gus Lamarch

Each of you, try to identify something, anything in your lives that you want, need, or benefit from, that government, i.e., taxes, have had nothing to do with. I will be surprised if you can come up with even one single thing. — tim wood

The "Government" should not be designed for the population through the State. It should be emanated indirectly from the individual interactions.

Your argument is based on the fact that society has already been pre-established by the use of the State.

"Ask that same question to a bird who was trapped in a cage for his entire life, and if it somehow managed to answer you, it would tell you: - I had no choice! If I want to eat, I must stay inside the cage. If I want to sing, I still need to stay in the cage. When I do, those who put me in here are satisfied, but when I decided to leave the cage and do the same, they promptly captured me and I was imprisoned in the cage again."

It is obvious that in order to survive in this way in which society was structured, I still have to submit to the demands of the State, however, this does not prevent me from conceiving how bad and unnecessary it is.

Therefore, your contentment with the Status Quo is not a valid argument.

tim wood

this is about making things simpler and enacted smarter regulation. — BitconnectCarlos

Sure, but eliminating capital gains taxes isn't the way to go. From you remarks I infer you do not really understand the issues around capital gains nor how they work, or for that matter the wealth disparity in the US.

The only time most US folks encounter any issue with capital gains taxes is with the sale of a principle residence, usually held for a period of years. That gain, for most folks, can be rolled into a new home, or the gain itself is subject to an substantial deduction, the practical result being for most folks little or no tax. Rich and richer folks, on the other hand, stand to make a tremendous gain if they're not taxed. The rich would be glad to support you in eliminating that tax.

tim wood

↪Gus Lamarch

"Name one thing," and you cannot or will not.

Taxes

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