• Natherton
    17
    The indication to (mass) test was Bullshit.

    The rapid test was Bullshit.

    The diagnostic criteria are Bullshit.

    Antisocial distancing, quarantine, isolation, contact tracing, masks, school closures & curfews aka lockdowns for asymptomatic persons, formerly called healthy people, are Bullshit.

    End this Bullshit.
  • InPitzotl
    880
    Okay, so let me try asking a different way. How does healthy people factor into protecting vulnerable people in your model?Roger Gregoire
    I don't know why this is so confusing to you. By not getting sick.
    So how do these people factor in achieving herd immunity in your program/model?Roger Gregoire
    They don't get sick.
    Can you show the math equation (similar to what I did) to see to how you account for these healthy people?Roger Gregoire
    Not really, because the question makes no sense. Equations in math denote two quantities compared to an operator, but the model is an evolving thing with multiple states; it evolves those states until there are no more infections. Healthy people are accounted for in this model by code; not "a" math equation. I could rephrase the model in mathematical terms, but I'm not sure how much it'd help you.

    The relevant code to understand is here (reformatted to cut vertical space and remove some extraneous details):
    Reveal
    enum State { Uninfected, Infected, Immune, Dead };
    struct Person { bool vulnerable; State state; unsigned x, y; vector<Person*> neighbors; };
    void evolve()   {
       set<Person*> died;
       set<Person*> immunized;
       set<Person*> infected;
       for (auto& p : people) {
          if (p.state == Infected) {
             if (p.vulnerable) {
                died.insert(&p);
             } else {
                immunized.insert(&p); }
             for (auto &neighbor : p.neighbors)
                if (neighbor->state==Uninfected) {
                   infected.insert(neighbor); } } }
       for (auto &p : died) p->state = Dead;
       for (auto &p : immunized) p->state = Immune;
       for (auto &p : infected) p->state = Infected;
    }
    

    It is a fact that there's a protective effect at 80%/95% in the scenarios run. The only "equation" you need is Deaths[80%]<Deaths[0%]; and it helps that Deaths[0%]=Deaths[2%]=Deaths[50%]. I understand why there is such an effect. The only problem left is for you to understand why.
  • Roger Gregoire
    133


    The herd immunity threshold is based on having a minimum mix of healthy people to vulnerable people, typically thought to be around 60%/40% ratio. If we get rid of (or remove) the healthy people from this mix, then we end up with a 0%/100% ratio of all vulnerable people, which only increases the virus spread and deaths, not decreases the deaths!

    This means that healthy people (those that can't get sick, or previously infected, or recently vaccinated) are necessary to achieve the protective effect of herd immunity.

    But yet, according to your program, and your belief, healthy people are not really "necessary". They just need to "stay out of the way and not get infected", right?

    If this were so, and according to your program, there would be no protective difference between a covid contaminated room filled with 50 vulnerable and 50 healthy people, and the same contaminated room filled with just 50 vulnerable people (and 0 healthy people).

    But according to the math, the odds of vulnerable people dying (or getting infected) would double if the 50 healthy people walked out of the room, or put on covid proof gunny sacks.

    Do you see what I am getting at? - The math does not match your program. - You are not accounting for the true 'protective' effect of healthy people 'within' the environment.

    ************

    The math also tells us that the social distancing of our healthy population is counter productive. It will cause more deaths than it will save. But yet, we foolishly require our healthy population to "hide", thinking that this will somehow save more lives.

    It is time we start thinking rationally. It is time to start following logic and math, and not the "bad science" being perpetrated by our well intentioned public officials.
  • Book273
    768
    In the model implemented by the program, everyone in an infected environment always gets infected. And immune people never clean the environment. And still, there's a protective effect.InPitzotl

    So: Everyone always gets infected, immune people never clean the environment (so I assume compromised people also do not clean the environment) and there is a protective effect. Where exactly is the the protective effect if everyone always gets infected? That sounds very non-protective to me, like right in the first line: "Everyone in an infected environment always gets infected."
  • Book273
    768
    our well intentioned public officials.Roger Gregoire

    Are they though? I mean, really? Am I still considered to be well intentioned if I make a mistake and then cling to that mistake, insisting on repeating it over and over again, rather than admit that it was a shit call in the first place? That sound like a gambling addiction...."it will work this time and then I will win it all back and more....Hey lend me more money, because THIS time it is really gonna happen..."

    Ardent denial is difficult to confuse with well intention.
  • Roger Gregoire
    133


    ...our well intentioned public officials. — Roger Gregoire

    Are they though? I mean, really? Am I still considered to be well intentioned if I make a mistake and then cling to that mistake, insisting on repeating it over and over again, rather than admit that it was a shit call in the first place? That sound like a gambling addiction...."it will work this time and then I will win it all back and more....Hey lend me more money, because THIS time it is really gonna happen..."

    Ardent denial is difficult to confuse with well intention.
    — Book273

    Book, you are spot on. I am just trying to play nice. "Well intentioned" is just my (nicer; hidden) way of saying exactly what you said.

    I think Dr. Fauci (Dr. Death) and his blind followers are too prideful and stuck in their ways to consider what many thousands of other medical experts, scientists, and rationalists are saying. They are too prideful to admit they screwed up, even at the added expense and cost of losing many more American lives. Their refusal to allow a full rational debate on the subject, as if they are the God of all truth, has already and will continue to result in much more massive death counts to our country. They seemingly care more about maintaining their God-like status, than in saving people.

    And unfortunately we now live in a "cancel culture" society, where those that object to the current irrational government propaganda are being silenced (canceled) by labeling them as "misinformed quacks". It almost seems that the nazi party has taken over this country.
  • Book273
    768
    Pretty much, yep. But not just State side eh. Same crap up here. No regard to the collateral damage of the lockdown, or the environmental damage of all the bloody masks. Now they are discussing the value of double masking. Just as useless as single masking, but with double the waste. But as long as it APPEARS that we are doing something...it's all good.

    Of course I get fired if I do an intervention on my patients that is designed to make me feel better, or look better, but does nothing of benefit to my patient. However, I do not work public health, so I guess...Different rules eh!
  • InPitzotl
    880
    But yet, according to your program, and your belief, healthy people are not really "necessary". They just need to "stay out of the way and not get infected", right?Roger Gregoire
    Depends on what you mean by necessary. The healthy people are necessary for herd immunity, but that's just a qualification of a term. They are not necessary to have a protective effect... if you remove the healthy people, your vulnerable people are just too distant from each other. That's just "social distancing". But there's no mechanical difference between the two, just a nominal difference.

    Also, you're failing to grasp the significance of what "according to [my] program" actually means. Programs aren't agents. My program isn't opining anything; it's implementing something.
    Where exactly is the the protective effect if everyone always gets infected?Book273
    The protective effect is holistic; it's similar to a phase shift. To understand what it is exactly as it applies to this model, you just need to understand what exactly happens in the model. Consider the case where the infection radius is set to 5, with one person infected. Then in one step, a person currently infected will lead to an infection of anyone within 5 units. For all such persons, in two steps, a person not yet infected will get infected if they are within 5 units of any of those. This infection will spread to any area of the map where there exists a chain of people P1, P2, ..., Pn, such that every two consecutive people in this chain is within 5 units of each other, P1 is within 5 units of the initially infected person, and Pn within 5 units of that location. Whereas I called this 5 unit area the "infection range", we can describe all areas of the map that this person can eventually contaminate as the "extended infection range". Initially, the extended infection range of sick people extends to the entire map. Once you increase the number of people who are immune, you decrease the density of people who can get sick, and at some point the union of the extended infection range of all sick people becomes less than the entire map. At that point, there are areas of the map where people who are not infected may inhabit that will never lead to an infection. The survivors are simply outside of the extended range of the initial sick people.

    There are other ways of describing this protective effect, but ultimately, this is just describing why not all vulnerable people die in the scenarios shown in the video at the 80% and 95% level.
  • Roger Gregoire
    133
    But yet, according to your program, and your belief, healthy people are not really "necessary". They just need to "stay out of the way and not get infected", right? — Roger Gregoire

    They [healthy people] are not necessary to have a protective effect. — InPitzotl

    Not only does this contradict basic math and logic, but it also doesn't align with current science. Without healthy people mixing in with vulnerable people there can be no protective effect whatsoever. Once we reach a minimum mix ratio of 60%/40% (healthy to vulnerable) will we then (theoretically) stop the virus completely. This is called the herd immunity threshold which absolutely requires "healthy people".

    ******************

    Also, you're failing to grasp the significance of what "according to [my] program" actually means. Programs aren't agents. My program isn't opining anything; it's implementing something. — InPitzotl

    It's implementing your opinion. - InPitzotl, didn't you write this program? If so, then it is based on your view; your opinion; your interpretation of how herd immunity works. It is an expression of your opinion, ...which, in my opinion, doesn't accurately match how herd immunity or how the protective effect truly works.
  • InPitzotl
    880
    Not only does this contradict basic math and logicRoger Gregoire
    Says the guy who can't compute a probability.
    Without healthy people mixing in with vulnerable people there can be no protective effect whatsoever.Roger Gregoire
    This is a contradiction. Might I remind you, you are against healthy people social distancing because you want them to get infected. That implies you don't think they'll get infected if they do. Why not?
    If so, then it is based on your view; your opinion; your interpretation of how herd immunity works.Roger Gregoire
    You're confused. The program is based on my model. My prediction, given before I wrote the program, is that there would be such an effect in the model. Writing the program is just implementing the model. Running the program confirms the prediction. To wit, if my prediction were wrong, then the running program should show no protective effect. But it did.
    It is an expression of your opinion, ...which, in my opinion, doesn't accurately match how herd immunity or how the protective effect truly works.Roger Gregoire
    But you advanced the argument from incredulity that your opinion is justified because if your opinion were false, then herd immunity would be impossible. My program shows this argument is wrong.
  • Banno
    24.9k
    Here's some more media lies:

    The seven countries with better coronavirus responses than Australia


    @Roger Gregoire's proposal is dangerous bullshit.
  • Roger Gregoire
    133
    Without healthy people mixing in with vulnerable people there can be no protective effect whatsoever. — Roger Gregoire

    This is a contradiction. — InPitzotl

    There is no contradiction. And it's not just me saying this, but virtually all medical experts, scientists, and health agencies (e.g. CDC, etc) also say this. Why you believe otherwise, is baffling.

    ******************

    Might I remind you, you are against healthy people social distancing because you want them to get infected. — InPitzotl

    Correct. Social distancing of healthy immune people prevents the protective effect to the vulnerable.

    ******************

    That implies you don't think they'll get infected if they do. — InPitzotl

    To the contrary. Remember: nothing bad happens to healthy immune people when they get infected, but something bad certainly happens to vulnerable people when they get infected. So for every infection of a healthy immune person, means one less potential infection of a vulnerable person - hence the 'protective' effect.

    ******************

    InPitzotl, I think we are at a stand-still. Neither of us are budging from our positions, so I think it is time to say "we agree to disagree".

    But one last request before we depart. How about we make a deal? If next year at this time our country is doing better by continuing the same irrational policy of social distancing of our healthy population, then I will publicly state "InPitzotl was right, and I was wrong". But if the contrary happens and things are much much worse then you will reciprocate likewise. ...deal?

    But of course, next year at this time, we will be past the point-of-no-return (that is if we don't come to our senses very soon). It will then only be a matter of a few years before all human life goes extinct.
  • InPitzotl
    880
    It's not just me saying this, but virtually all medical experts, scientists, and health agencies (e.g. CDC, etc) also say this. Why you believe otherwise, is baffling.Roger Gregoire
    That sounds impressive, but I'm afraid I'm not that gullible. "Virtually all medical experts, scientists, and health agencies" is quite a weasel worded reference. I cited the wikipedia article though, which gives an explanation that is pretty much the same as mine. Encyclopedic references are good first starts to explain what the current consensus is, especially popular ones about popular subjects.

    But the CDC, while not a citation, is a specific entity. So let's check what the CDC has to say.

    From: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/terms/glossary.html
    Herd immunity: See Community immunity. — CDC Glossary
    Ah, don't you hate it when they do that? Alright, let's do that.
    Community immunity: A situation in which a sufficient proportion of a population is immune to an infectious disease (through vaccination and/or prior illness) to make its spread from person to person unlikely. Even individuals not vaccinated (such as newborns and those with chronic illnesses) are offered some protection because the disease has little opportunity to spread within the community. Also known as herd immunity. — CDC Glossary
    So... according to the CDC, herd immunity is simply about making the spread of an infectious disease from person to person unlikely due to a sufficient proportion of a population being immune. That sounds like what I'm saying. They also say why the vulnerable are protected, but per their story, it is because "the disease has little opportunity to spread within the community." There's no mention of immune people around you fighting germs. Just diseases that can't spread because there's no opportunity to.
    To the contrary. Remember: nothing happens to healthy immune people when they get infectedRoger Gregoire
    Immune people do not get infected (per this model). Uninfected people do. Or as the CDC phrases it: "immune ... through vaccination and/or prior illness".
    InPitzotl, I think we are at a stand-still. Neither of us are budging from our positions, so I think it is time to say "we agree to disagree".Roger Gregoire
    TBH I'm not sure I can agree to disagree here. That makes it sound like we're discussing which flavor of ice cream is the best; as if this is just an opinion versus opinion thing.
    But one last request before we depart. How about we make a deal?Roger Gregoire
    You make it sound like observing the effects of social distancing has never been done before. Not only have we been doing this since the 19th century, but here's the data I myself crunched from the start of the pandemic:
    https://ibb.co/Gvqm7yk
    ...but it's great to hear that you're at least doing a fuzzy test based on reality, instead of just hairbraining up a scheme, and arguing that your model is correct because you personally cannot fathom another one that would work.
  • Roger Gregoire
    133
    So... according to the CDC, herd immunity is simply about making the spread of an infectious disease from person to person unlikely due to a sufficient proportion of a population being immune. — InPitzotl

    Keywords: sufficient proportion of a population.

    Your theory is just the opposite. Your theory is based on creating an insufficient proportion! You falsely think that if you move all healthy immune people AWAY from vulnerable, that somehow this gives more protection to the vulnerable.

    To create herd immunity, you need to move healthy people into a vulnerable population, not away from it!

    The reason herd immunity works is because it distributes a significant portion of the viral load to the healthy immune (who don't die), and AWAY from the vulnerable (who do die). - if we remove the healthy, then the vulnerable incur the wrath of the entire viral load by themselves, resulting in massive deaths, as we are seeing happening now in this country.

    *************
    That sounds like what I'm saying. — InPitzotl

    Far from it. Removing or isolating healthy immune people away from the population only increases the deaths of vulnerable people.

    *************
    You make it sound like observing the effects of social distancing has never been done before. Not only have we been doing this since the 19th century... — InPitzotl

    Nonsense. NEVER in the history of mankind have we ever intentionally socially distanced our healthy immune people anywhere near the scale we are doing now. It is quite reasonable to social distance our vulnerable, but social distancing our healthy people, creates a deadly reverse (anti-protective) effect.

    If social distancing of our healthy population is such a "good thing", then why is it not working? Why does the reverse seem to be happening? Why do we now have many more deaths? Why do we now have at least 3 more mutations of the virus to deal with? I don't know how much more of this "good thing" we can take.

    Next year, if we continue this foolishness, each of the current mutations will have mutated into more and new mutations, deaths will be at least 2X what they are now, and we will be past the point where we can stop this thing. The party for mankind will be over. It would then just be a matter a time (within 5-10 years) that humans will be the next extinct creature on this planet.

    Isn't that the definition of insanity? ...keep doing the same thing and expect a different result?
  • InPitzotl
    880
    Your theory is just the opposite. Your theory is based on creating an insufficient proportion!Roger Gregoire
    But Roger, when I call these scenarios 0%, 2%, 50%, 80%, and 95%, what exactly did you think those percentages were a proportion of?
    You falsely think that if you move all healthy immune people AWAY from vulnerable, that somehow this gives more protection to the vulnerable.Roger Gregoire
    Nope. And I've corrected you on this very recently, so it's your fault you got this wrong, not mine. The healthy immune people I've expressed no opinion about; it is the healthy uninfected that are the problem. Uninfected per this model is what I initially described as state A; those are the ones you are recommending get infected so that they will become immune. Healthy immune people are state C1.
    To create herd immunity, you need to move healthy people into a vulnerable population, not away from it!Roger Gregoire
    You speak with an urgency, but without a foundation in reality, your urgency should be ignored.
    If social distancing of our healthy population is such a good thing, then why is it not working?Roger Gregoire
    The graph I showed you suggests otherwise. What are you looking at when you say it's not working exactly?
    Next year, if we continue this foolishnessRoger Gregoire
    You're just doomsaying now. You speak with an urgency, but your urgency is unjustified because your model is in question. It's critically important we get this correct, because reality doesn't care what your opinion is.
    Isn't that the definition of insanity? ...keep doing the same thing and expect a different result?Roger Gregoire
    Assuming you're talking about the US ("our country"; only us Mercan's naively expect everyone on the net to be in their country), we certainly haven't been doing the thing in the first place. Certain people in certain areas have, such as us in Massachusetts about the time that the graph I just showed you in the last post demonstrated that the practice worked. But social distancing doesn't work if there's still a significant portion of the population not doing it.
  • Roger Gregoire
    133
    The reason herd immunity works is because it distributes a significant portion of the viral load to the healthy immune (who don't die), and AWAY from the vulnerable (who do die). - if we remove the healthy, then the vulnerable incur the wrath of the entire viral load by themselves, resulting in massive deaths, as we are seeing happening now in this country.
  • InPitzotl
    880
    The reason herd immunity works is because it distributes a significant portion of the viral loadRoger Gregoire
    ...your theory seems to assume that the vast majority of viruses in an environment find themselves inside human bodies in 7 days. I question that assumption.
  • Roger Gregoire
    133
    ...your theory seems to assume that the vast majority of viruses in an environment find themselves inside human bodies in 7 days. I question that assumption.InPitzotl

    ...an irrelevant red herring.
  • InPitzotl
    880
    ...an irrelevant red herring.Roger Gregoire
    Okay, maybe it's worse than that. On what do you base this and your equations on?
    it distributes a significant portion of the viral load to the healthy immune (who don't die)Roger Gregoire
    If Joe and John run across the beach, does Joe get half as much sand in his toes than if he ran across alone? If Joe and John jump into a pool does Joe get half as wet than if he was alone? If Joe and John pick apples from an orchard, does Joe pick half as many as he would if John hadn't helped?

    If it's not the case that the vast majority of viruses in an environment enter the human body, why would half as many enter Joe's body if John was also there?

    ETA: Ah... this is starting to make sense now. You're just bad at math, aren't you? You aren't actually imagining any mechanism by which your equations fall out... you just see a distribution and a number and think division simply applies. This would explain the odd way you do probabilities and why there's 100 people in this poor vulnerable person's house, and only 10 mosquitos... it's because you think division is always the right tool, but you have to cram many more people in to get a probability that makes sense.

    So, in response, no, division is the wrong tool to apply here, as in the case of sand via walking through the beach, water molecules via getting wet in a pool, apples being picked from an orchard, or viruses infecting people in an environment. You can only divide if the total quantity consumed is known to be fixed; that must be true, since if you're dividing a/m versus a/n to distribute among m and n people, then multiplying by m and n respectively gets the same number back. So dividing to get the quantity/risk/whatever presumes that the totality of people in the environment consumes the same amount of viruses. Which is kind of weird, if you're not positing that they are consuming a fixed quantity somehow (such as, if they are consuming the vast majority of viruses).
  • Roger Gregoire
    133
    If you are trying to falsely equate the virus as grains of sand, or molecules of water relative to two people (Joe and John), then the virus greatly outnumbers the people. Once we are outnumbered, the party is over.

    ***********

    For every piece of the pie that Joe eats, is one less piece that John can eat.

    For any given environment, every virus that infects healthy people is one less virus that infects vulnerable people.

    If healthy people leave the environment, then the ratio of virus to vulnerable INCREASES, thereby increasing (not decreasing!) the likelihood of vulnerable people being infected and dying.

    The protective effect of herd immunity requires healthy people mix into the environment, not away from it.
  • InPitzotl
    880
    If you are trying to falsely represent the virus as grains of sand, or molecules of water relative to two people (Joe and John), then the virus greatly outnumbers the people. Once we are outnumbered, the party is over.Roger Gregoire
    When you say "falsely", are you comparing against actual numbers that you have, or just making this stuff up?

    To get a sense of the scale of numbers we're talking about:
    https://www.nature.com/articles/nrmicro2644
    Astronomy is a field that is used to dealing with large numbers, but these can be dwarfed when compared with life on the microbial scale. For instance, if all the 1 × 1031 viruses on earth were laid end to end, they would stretch for 100 million light years. Furthermore, there are 100 million times as many bacteria in the oceans (13 × 1028) as there are stars in the known universe. The rate of viral infection in the oceans stands at 1 × 1023 infections per second, and these infections remove 20–40% of all bacterial cells each day. Moving onto dry land, the number of microorganisms in a teaspoon of soil (1 × 109) is the same as the number of humans currently living in Africa. Even more amazingly, dental plaque is so densely packed that a gram will contain approximately 1 × 1011 bacteria, roughly the same number of humans that have ever lived. Not quite so densely packed but impressive all the same, the bacteria present in the average human gut weigh about 1 kilogram, and a human adult will excrete their own weight in faecal bacteria each year. The number of genes contained within this gut flora outnumbers that contained within our own genome 150-fold, and even in our genome, 8% of the DNA is derived from remnants of viral genomes.
    Now (bolded) that's all viruses, not a particular one.

    But not that the precise numbers were the point, but there are comparatively about 1019 grains of sand on earth. And in a 20,000 gallon pool, there are about 1031 molecules of water (or at least ballpark in order of magnitude). So there's about as many molecules in a pool as there are viruses on earth.

    But the human lung has 480 million alveoli. A severe coronovirus infection may compromise a person's ability to get enough oxygen. But a person can live with a single lung, so at a minimum the infection affects 240 million alveoli.

    Now I'm not arguing that there are 1031 coronoviruses; that would be silly. But you seem to severely misaprehend how tiny and numerous these things are.
  • Roger Gregoire
    133
    Now I'm not arguing that there are 1031 coronoviruses; that would be silly. But you seem to severely misaprehend how tiny and numerous these things are. — InPitzotl

    I'm glad you were honest enough to end with this paragraph and not continue to falsely equate all the viruses in mankind with this one virus that we call covid-19.

    Herd immunity has been natures way of protecting mankind from all these viruses throughout history. But now, we are interfering with mother nature. We are intentionally shielding our healthy population from protecting our vulnerable population. Never in the history of mankind have we did this, and is why we are losing this battle with covid.
  • InPitzotl
    880
    I'm glad you were honest enough to end with this paragraph and not continue to falsely equate all the viruses in mankind with this one virus that we call covid-19.Roger Gregoire
    Sounds very passive-aggressive. Facts are what they are; whatever points you imagined I was making before the end is just what you projected. The point is that you actually think the viruses are on the scale of humans. I'd like to know why. But you didn't comment on that... instead, you just continued onto another arbitrary claim. The only comment you made regarding this appreciation of scale was a passive aggressive accusation that I was "almost" being dishonest; you seemed to have completely failed to grasp the proportionality of the entities you're trying to talk about.
    Herd immunity has been natures way of protecting mankind from all these viruses throughout history.Roger Gregoire
    No. The vast majority simply don't affect humans. It has nothing to do with herd immunity.
    We are intentionally shielding our healthy population from protecting our vulnerable population.Roger Gregoire
    Argument from repetition.
    Never in the history of mankind have we did this, and is why we are losing this battle with covid.
    Then how do you explain these news clippings that 5 minutes of googling dredged up?
    https://ibb.co/BKgkRSB
  • Roger Gregoire
    133


    For every piece of the pie that Joe eats, is one less piece that John can eat. — Roger Gregoire

    InPitzotl, can you grasp this concept? Yes or No?
  • InPitzotl
    880
    InPitzotl, can you grasp this concept? Yes or No?Roger Gregoire
    Of course, but that's hardly a gotcha. I ate an egg sandwich this morning. That egg I ate is one less egg you "could have" eaten. But I somehow doubt there's any reasonable way you could have eaten that egg had I not eaten it. If I drink a glass of milk, that's one less glass of milk that you could drink. But that doesn't mean there's any less milk in the container in your fridge. If a raindrop lands on me, that's one less raindrop that could land on you. But that doesn't mean if we both walk into the rain we get half as wet.

    You seem to be suggesting by an argument from common sense an absurdity. I could argue that there's virtually no milk in my fridge, because thousands of people drink milk, depriving me of milk, by the logic of this argument. It's kind of ridiculous.

    Do you grasp how ridiculous this is?
  • Roger Gregoire
    133


    For every piece of the pie that Joe eats, is one less piece that John can eat. InPitzotl, can you grasp this concept? Yes or No? — Roger Gregoire

    You seem to be suggesting by an argument from common sense an absurdity. I could argue that there's virtually no milk in my fridge, because thousands of people drink milk, depriving me of milk, by the logic of this argument. It's kind of ridiculous. Do you grasp how ridiculous this is? — InPitzotl

    Firstly, you seem to be fabricating a delusional interpretation of my words. And secondly, this is not necessarily ridiculous (i.e. thousands of people drinking milk could cause a milk shortage, thereby resulting in no milk in your fridge). And finally, the truly "ridiculous" part here is you trying to equate 'your' strawman's argument as 'my' argument. So let me try to ask again, (and hopefully get a straightforward yes or no answer this time) --

    Assuming Joe, John and the pie are all together in the same environment (e.g. John's kitchen). -- For every slice of the pie that Joe eats, means that there is one less slice that John can eat.

    InPitzotl, can you grasp this simple concept? YES or NO?
  • InPitzotl
    880
    Firstly, you seem to be fabricating a delusional interpretation of my words.Roger Gregoire
    Nope. It's a pretty direct interpretation of your words.
    And secondly, this is not necessarily ridiculousRoger Gregoire
    Of course it could be true that we need to divide. But you just ruled out what would make that appropriate. Let's be explicit about what you ruled out:
    ...your theory seems to assume that the vast majority of viruses in an environment find themselves inside human bodies in 7 days. I question that assumption.InPitzotl
    ...an irrelevant red herring.Roger Gregoire
    You accused me of advancing an irrelevant red herring here. I dispute that. But if this were an irrelevant red herring, it shouldn't affect things. So let's start with the presumption that the vast majority of available resources for consumption is not consumed.
    And secondly, this is not necessarily ridiculous (i.e. thousands of people drinking milk could cause a milk shortage, thereby resulting in no milk in your fridge).Roger Gregoire
    But there's only a milk shortage if you consume the vast majority of milk in the area.
    Assuming Joe, John and the pie are all together in the same environment (e.g. John's kitchen). -- For every slice of the pie that Joe eats, means that there is one less slice that John can eat.Roger Gregoire
    But it's actually your conditions that are irrelevant. If Joe and John don't consume the vast majority of pies in the kitchen, division is inappropriate. Same environment isn't really relevant; and it's always true that John cannot eat a pie Joe eats. If Joe can eat 2 pies, John can eat 3 pies, but there are 10 pies in the kitchen, what are you going to divide what by?
  • Roger Gregoire
    133
    My words:
    For every piece of the pie that Joe eats, is one less piece that John can eat. InPitzotl, can you grasp this concept? Yes or No? — Roger Gregoire

    Your interpretation of my words:
    You seem to be suggesting by an argument from common sense an absurdity. I could argue that there's virtually no milk in my fridge, because thousands of people drink milk, depriving me of milk, by the logic of this argument. It's kind of ridiculous. Do you grasp how ridiculous this is? — InPitzotl

    ...you seem to be fabricating a delusional interpretation of my words. — Roger Gregoire

    Nope. It's a pretty direct interpretation of your words. — InPitzotl

    ...you're killin me Smalls! (...shaking my head in disbelief)
  • Roger Gregoire
    133
    ...let me try again, HERE ARE MY SPECIFIC WORDS below. Can you respond to these words with a YES or NO????

    Assuming Joe, John and the pie are all together in the same environment (e.g. John's kitchen). -- For every slice of the pie that Joe eats, means that there is one less slice that John can eat.

    InPitzotl, can you grasp this simple concept? YES or NO?
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