• telex
    103
    Daemonic sign

    Socrates called this an inner voice which he heard when he was about to make a mistake. It was a voice that prevented Socrates from entering into politics. It was a voice that told Socrates to be silent at his trial. And it was a voice that guided his rational discourse.

    Could you say this voice wasn’t an “inner” voice but an external voice from another being, that spoke inside of Socrates mind? Was it the kind of voice that could tell Socrates a joke? Like if an acquaintance told you a joke. Did this voice have a physical presence somehow and could it control Socrates actions? Or you could say, we all hear an inner voice, and Socrates just heard it the loudest.

    If we sent a psychiatrist back in time and Socrates went in to their office for a diagnosis and while lying on a stone chaise longue Socrates told the doctor that he heard an inner voice or a divine voice which helped him reach moral conclusions, what would a psychiatrist say?

    Nonetheless, we are not psychiatrists and are unable to reach any conclusion (unless some of you are), but is it something that we could speculate on? Perhaps this is not even worthy of speculation, if we are not trained psychiatrists and have no direct dialogue with Socrates.

    On the other hand, if Susan heard a similar voice some thousands years later, what would she think, if she for example, saw a youtube video on schizophrenia? Would she try to philosophize or look to philosophy or would she believe she is schizophrenic?

    (On a very important side note, this is definitely not a medical evaluation and everyone should definitely go to the doctors :) )

    This of course does not mean that Susan is perfectly psychologically healthy aside from the voice. Maybe Susan has paranoia, depression, anxiety, etc.. and she should still nonetheless go to the doctors.

    On the other hand, if Susan was right in a sense that it wasn’t schizophrenia, then from the outside perspective Susan would appear somehow withdrawn from society and maybe even appear schizophrenic or psychologically unhealthy because she was so preoccupied with the voice.

    It would seem this would always be a dilemna (m) for Susan. In some sense she’d be torn between two worlds.

    How do you think Susan and Socrates would behave, if for example a psychiatrist traveled back in time and gave Socrates a diagnosis? Would Susan feel more at home if she went back in time? Or vice versa?
  • unenlightened
    9.2k
    You might point Susan in the general direction of The Hearing Voices Network.

    As a very general rule, it is wise to listen to your voices and treat them with respect as friends; If you try to silence them, they are liable to get louder and angry. One might reject the terminology of daemons in favour of 'the voice of the unconscious' or some such locution.

    But time travel is an insane idea! :razz:
  • telex
    103
    But time travel is an insane idea! :razz:unenlightened

    In VR not so much, in the "true" external world, probably.

    Btw ... nice link.
  • Jack Cummins
    5.3k

    I would recommend the book Origins of the Bicameral Mind by Julian Jaynes for understanding Socrates experiences of voices. Jaynes argued that in ancient times consciousness was experienced as an outer reality rather than inner. Obviously, what Jaynes is saying is open to speculation. However, having worked with psychotic people for many years I do find Jaynes' arguments to be interesting as for most of us consciousness is experienced as an inner reality but it does not seem to be an exclusive experience and it is possible that iancient people did perceive in a different way from us because their views were more mythic rather than grounded in material science.
  • telex
    103


    Very interesting. Thanks.
  • god must be atheist
    5.1k
    Socrates may have used the phrase as a metaphor. In today's vernacular, the inner voice in moral questions is your better judgment. Maybe our vernaculal use can be traced back to Socrates' outer voice that Plato plated or etched into history, and in particular, to the very utterance in the OP's example describing his inner voice Socrates expressed with his outer voice.

    If Socrates was hearing voices actually or not, is not a question we can decide. He reportedly had no other diagnostic tools helpful to establish dementia praecox in his case.

    The patient can be released, and followed up by Dr. Hyppocrates. And our opinion at this time is that Mr. Socrates is fit to stand trail. (What was he trailing?)
  • telex
    103
    The patient can be released, and followed up by Dr. Hyppocrates. And our opinion at this time is that Mr. Socrates is fit to stand trail. (What was he trailing?)god must be atheist

    Sounds good. (Trailing a lawyer who was trailing an ambulance, driven by Dr. Hyppocrates?)
  • god must be atheist
    5.1k
    Socrates called this an inner voice which he heard when he was about to make a mistake. It was a voice that prevented Socrates from entering into politics. It was a voice that told Socrates to be silent at his trail. And it was a voice that guided his rational discourse.telex

    Just so in case you were wondering where "trail" came from.

    Not a problem, I like word games.

    Factually, Socrates vehemently defended himself at his last trial. I have a vague feeling you're mixing him up with another allegedly existing philosopher who also wrote no words and we only know about his thoughts due to his students' writings. This other philosopher reportedly uttered no words at his trial.
  • telex
    103
    Factually, Socrates vehemently defended himself at his last trial. I have a vague feeling you're mixing him up with another allegedly existing philosopher who also wrote no words and we only know about his thoughts due to his students' writings. This other philosopher reportedly uttered no words at his trial.god must be atheist

    Ok, that makes sense. :eyes:
  • Valentinus
    1.6k
    The notion that some agent is wrestling with you as you think is interesting and difficult to reflect upon. Socrates' saying "maybe I have gotten this all wrong" is not a withdrawal from his previous arguments. You only have yourself to try things with. How does one describe the territory?
  • telex
    103
    How does one describe the territory?Valentinus

    So it could be a thing that could be known to you, but exceptionally unclear to an outside observer. However, it could also be questioned - what is it meant by "known?" Do you have the kind of knowledge and ability to rationalize this issue? Perhaps you don't and you've made a mistake, and even if you didn't, you have no reasonable basis to reach your conclusion. Perhaps you do have that kind of knowledge or experience, however you could come into conflict with expert authority on the matter.
  • Fenlander
    10
    I worked for over 30 years in psychiatry, and i can assure you that there is no problem here. People who hear voices, and more than one voice are common. There are benevolent voices and negative ones. If services responded to them all, the services would be overwhelmed.

    The origins of voices is another thing. Services would take an interest if the aforesaid person was disturbed by them, not taking care of themselves, etc, or the person was a danger to themselves or the public.

    The origin of voices is interesting, we are going into deep waters there. I suspect that its more than we think, or can be attributed to illness.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    How do you think Susan and Socrates would behave, if for example a psychiatrist traveled back in time and gave Socrates a diagnosis? Would Susan feel more at home if she went back in time? Or vice versa?telex

    Did you forget about religion and the widespread belief in evil spirits? The word "deamon" also means an [evil] spirit I believe. What about belief in bodily humors as a basis for disease? However, the psychiatrist, if well-trained and qualified, a psychiatrist worth his/her salt, would put beliefs in the context of the relevant time-period and should, in my humble opinion, withhold the diagnosis of schizophrenia in Susan and Socrates.
  • dussias
    52
    Could you say this voice wasn’t an “inner” voice but an external voice from another being, that spoke inside of Socrates mind?


    When you remind yourself about ideals, is it really "you" who's doing the remembering? Or is it the perduring will of those who kept the idea alive throughout time, but it now it happens to be your turn?
  • Jack Cummins
    5.3k
    Yes, it would be so interesting to know what modern day psychiatrists would make of Socrates and other day thinkers. Would they Section Socrates and restrain him and give him a depot injection? A better option than sentence him to death?
    I have worked in psychiatric care for 20 years and the perspective of doctors and many other professionals, with some exceptions, was flat and without imagination.
    I can't help wondering what my managers and supervisors would have said if I had said to them that I was on a philosopher website, communication with characters going by the names of The Mad Fool, Unenlightened, Possibility and Noble Dust. I can only smile at their possible responses and remarks.
  • Pfhorrest
    4.6k
    I would recommend the book Origins of the Bicameral Mind by Julian Jaynes for understanding Socrates experiences of voices.Jack Cummins

    I was about to say the same thing!
  • Gnomon
    3.8k
    On the other hand, if Susan heard a similar voice some thousands years later, what would she think, if she for example, saw a youtube video on schizophrenia? Would she try to philosophize or look to philosophy or would she believe she is schizophrenic?telex
    It's possible that Socrates was kidding about the daemon, or pandering to popular superstition. But he may have simply used the most common term of the time for an "inner voice". Today we have other ways to describe such inward guidance, such as Intuition or SuperEgo. So, Susan could just tell the psychiatrist that she had a "feeling", not a literal voice.

    Apparently schizophrenics can't distinguish their own "self-talk" from outside voices, because their brains are mis-wired --- perhaps in the module that divides incoming information into internal (self) and external (other) origin. Maybe Socrates knew his inner guide was simply his "conscience", but had no vernacular for such a concept. Anyway, nowadays, we have no need for daemons -- or split brains -- to explain our conflicting motivations. :smile:

    Socrates' Daemon : The Platonic Socrates, however, never refers to the daimonion as a daimōn; it was always referred to as an impersonal "something" or "sign".[17] By this term he seems to indicate the true nature of the human soul, his newfound self-consciousness.[18] Paul Shorey sees the daimonion not as an inspiration but as "a kind of spiritual tact checking Socrates from any act opposed to his true moral and intellectual interests
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daemon_(classical_mythology)

    Tact : adroitness; poise, and savoir faire. While all these words mean "skill and grace in dealing with others," tact implies delicate and considerate perception of what is appropriate.

    Schizo Causes : Note -- no daemons in the list
    Structural changes in the brain. ...
    Chemical changes in the brain. ...
    Pregnancy or birth complications. ...
    Childhood trauma. ...
    Previous drug use.

    https://www.healthline.com/health/schizophrenia-causes
  • telex
    103
    It's possible that Socrates was kidding about the daemon, or pandering to popular superstition. But he may have simply used the most common term of the time for an "inner voice". Today we have other ways to describe such inward guidance, such as Intuition or SuperEgo. So, Susan could just tell the psychiatrist that she had a "feeling", not a literal voice.Gnomon

    Yeah I guess in that sense there'd would have to be a distinction by what is truly meant:

    - is there an external voice aside from one's one mind (in daemonic sense)
    - It was a voice like schizophrenia that is a product of one's own mind and it could be mistaken for daemonic sign
    - Socrates was not telling the truth
    - Socrates was referring to a feeling
    - Socrates meant inner conscience
    - Socrates was referring to something that we today can describe as intuition or Superego
    - Or some combination of these
  • telex
    103
    Did you forget about religion and the widespread belief in evil spirits? The word "deamon" also means an [evil] spirit I believe. What about belief in bodily humors as a basis for disease?TheMadFool

    Yeah I like this. This is interesting to research.
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