I only take them seriously enough.

My point was just that if you upset the people who you had wanted to like because you discover that there's still kind of an implicit class within Philosophy, you're just going to find yourself with no future, and, so, it's best to just ignore that whole sort of thing and find yourself something that you like doing, which I don't think is all that bad of advice.

When I was young, I decided I wanted to be a philosopher. I obtained my master's degree before ultimately deciding the field was not for me. I went and taught high school math for a while, then got a software engineering degree and program for a living today.

Now that you can see my life path, lets go over what you can expect in getting a philosophy degree, and why you should, or should not pursue it. I know a few reasons why people go into philosophy. Lets check yours!

1. You view philosophy as a hobby.

A degree is not about a hobby, it is about a job. Early in life we think that our hobbies would be great to do as jobs. The problem is, they are often two very different things. Hobbies are done on our own time, things we freely pursue for our entertainment and enjoyment. A job is one someone else's time, necessary to receive pay to live, and dictates your actions.

You CAN have hobbies that you also enjoy as jobs, but this is often not the case. Will you enjoy being forced to teach philosophy you're not personally interested in? Do you enjoy countless hours of pouring over texts of philosophers to quote to publish material that is ultimately meaningless because you have a quota to meet for the year?

Because if philosophy is simply a hobby, you really have nothing new to contribute to the field. At that point, you are a philosopher because you love reading other people's works, have some general opinion of your own philosophy, and will be likely an irrelevant academic with low pay and status in society. That being the case, you better love it as a job too! I found this was the majority of people who went into philosophy, so you'll be in good company. If you can enjoy or tolerate the job aspect, you'll at least be around people who share your hobby. But you can still be around like minded hobbyists with the internet and events, so don't think philosophy as a job is necessary to entertain your hobby.

2. Philosophy is a passion, and you believe you have something valuable to contribute to the field

This was me. I started a philosophy club my freshman year, and it was one of the few things I was passionate about. After numerous conversations, I had come up with new ideas and takes on philosophers other people who were familiar with the literature had not heard before. But beyond that, they thought there might be some merit to it! I started writing philosophy on my own in a neophyte paper format.

I knew going into the field meant I had to get a Phd, that my pay would suck, and people would likely look down on me. But I HAD to try, because what if I actually had something to contribute, but did not? I learned all I could, continued to write and refine in my spare time, and went on to get a masters.

If you are trying to contribute to philosophy however, be warned. In my experience, academic philosophy is an old and set in its ways institution. And like any old institution, it has its red tape, and a surprisingly closed mindedness. You will suffer through many boring lectures and analysis that examine philosophy's that are outdated, flat out wrong, and irrelevant. Academic philosophy is a strange place that asks you to analyze its failures, and write papers on the merits and demerits of what amounts to a modern day work of fiction.

You will not find people who are excited about hearing new takes on things. They will insist that you are young, and that you must do things the way it has been done before. You will be forced to cover topics that are safe, boring, and within the professor's knowledge. You will spend the majority of your time writing about what opposing philosopher's thought about a topic, then squeeze in a small and virtually insignificant part of your insight.

You will go to professors and discuss your ideas during office hours, hoping for assistance and direction. You will find many professors uncomfortable or outright hostile if you make a rational, calm, and pointed point that they agree with you on. Many professors will not be excited at the prospect of something new, but insulted that some young person has made an insight into a career they have spent many years on. You will not find guidance, you will be on your own.

I had no desire to fight the system, or to play by its rules for four more years, and wanted to do something more meaningful with my life. I did. If you have a passion and a possible contribution though, don't let that stop you! I do not regret my pursuit, I only regret that it did not bear fruit.

3. You think philosophy is easy, and will get you a degree.

If you're just planning on getting a bachelors because you want to say you graduated college, this is something a few do. Don't even think about going to grad school though, you will be eaten alive.

However, I caution against this. 40 years ago just having a degree would get you somewhere. Now? Not really. If you're wealthy, you get a degree "to have a degree" for status. If you're not? You get a degree for a job. In the time you get a philosophy degree and go work at a crap job, you could have started working at a job, and through hard work and effort, worked your way up the ladder.

Often times people in the third category don't know what to do, but think they have to have a degree. It is an expensive waste in time, money, and self-esteem. If you are in this camp, drop out of college, and go do something with your life. Get a job that doesn't require a degree, and try to find a job that you don't hate, and can see doing without dread as you climb up in pay and position. Continue to do philosophy as a hobby. Hobbies are great, and do not need to turn into careers!

Once you find a job that you either really don't detest, or rarely, even love, then look into higher education of some sorts to work your way up higher. Use education and certifications as tools to help you get better pay and position in your line of work.

I hope that helps. Know what you're getting into and know that no matter what decision you make, it will have a risk of failure, and require work to succeed. Don't let that hold you back though! Most people make it as long as you keep trying. If you fail? Its not the end of the world. Try again, you may succeed down the road.

Often times people in the third category don't know what to do, but think they have to have a degree. It is an expensive waste in time, money, and self-esteem. If you are in this camp, drop out of college, and go do something with your life. Get a job that doesn't require a degree, and try to find a job that you don't hate, and can see doing without dread as you climb up in pay and position. Continue to do philosophy as a hobby. Hobbies are great, and do not need to turn into careers! — Philosophim

I'm not the author of this original post, but, I, too, am in need of advice. I'm going for a Bachelor's in Philosophy because I just don't have any other interests. I figure that I can use the degree to find some sort of entry-level job that has almost nothing to do with the field, like data entry or something. I decided to go back to the university in order to get out of the service industry. I used to think that I could be happy just finding a job as a barista and creating art, but found that I just couldn't seem to land a job as a barista, and, so, thought that I could make do as a dishwasher, which I did exceptionally well, but found that, having perfected the role, a dishwasher's job, by the way, is only sort of to wash the dishes and put them away, to do it well you sort of control the rhythm to the entire establishment as it keeps everyone in the frame of mind which lets them do their jobs well, I was no longer, at all, interested in washing the dishes, as well as that I had come to the realization that washing them too well, which, I found that I almost always had to do, would make it so that it wasn't terribly likely that you be promoted, as restaurant managers can have some difficulty in finding a good dishwasher who will stay in their establishment, which could be easily resolved by paying them a living wage, but, such solutions are not the kind of things that most managers are likely to take into consideration. Anyways, I, then, became a bar-back. In any establishment, it is likely that the bar-back is the smartest person in the entire establishment, as they are the only person to have intentionally chosen the best job within the establishment. You think that you want to become a bar-back to get bartending experience, but, as bartending is likely to consume your entire life, you really do it in order to come to the realization that you just need to go to college. Having found the best job to have without a college degree, I can say with certainty that there are not jobs that a person can find which they will actually enjoy doing. Being a bar-back is just the path of least resistance.

Anyways, what I'm wondering is just how daunting grad school is, really? Can it be afforded? How difficult is it to get in? Do you really have to worry about the loans all that much? Can you get loans to pay for it? Though I am not cheap, I do live with a certain degree of thrift, and don't necessarily mind being in debt. I assume that finding myself in any entry-level Tech job is likely to result in some sort of Office Space like scenario, as, though diligent enough, I have no fidelity whatsoever to any employer, and do believe for common characterizations of the Tech industry to be more or less accurate. Just getting a Bachelor's degree doesn't seem like it is likely to leave me satisfied in life.

I'm somewhat lacking in discipline, though, which is something that I am hoping that my undergrad will alleviate, but do worry that I may lack the academic rigor to make it through grad school. You say that you should just consider Philosophy as a hobby if you aren't really all that devoted to the field, but, as, I do not want to die in the service industry, the Film school that I was going to closed, and I don't really have any other interests, it does seem like I should learn to focus my attention well enough upon philosophical texts that do, admittedly, bore me, to actually go all of the way and get a Doctorate in the hopes that I can land myself a not terribly well paying teaching job at, like, an Art college or something. The two questions that I, then, have are what are the practical concerns in such a venture and how can one motivate oneself to have academic rigor?

Academia is mostly a pyramid scheme in which grad students get payed almost entirely in doing work that they love at most 25% of the time. You get the job you thought you would have, maybe, when you've been in it for 30 years. I know people who've been in it for over 10 and they're still on zero hours contracts - multiple ones for teaching and research -, with almost no opportunity for career progression. They're constantly putting their life on hold.

The senior academics I've talked to, when they're drunk and actually frank about things, talk about research leadership effectively being a high tier manager in a corporation - you are mostly doing paperwork and trying to attract funding, you need to get an empire of grad students to actually do "your" research, which you don't spend time doing. You mostly become an expert in your own conjectures and marketing them for the "public interest" or you immediately have a business application in mind.

Being successful at university is mostly a question of conscientiousness - doing the hard study, treating it like a job, working like fuck on essays and exams. You do not need to be a particularly creative thinker, you mostly need to be thorough and put the effort into demonstrating that you understand the material. The profile changes a bit for actual research work as a grad student - your conscientiousness is still very valuable, but you also need to be able to learn new things in your chosen field quickly, turn failed ideas into relevant work, and actually be good at creative problem solving and creative questioning. This is where my experience in academia ends, never had a permanent contract, I've only done post grad things and been a research assistant in a couple of labs. The pace of output is typically very slow, but most of the time you feel like you're rushed off your feet having to actually learn new information. You will spend evenings reading papers because you do not actually have the time during work hours to learn what you need to learn to do what you need to do in work hours.

My advice on taking academic research as a career path; only do it if you love it so much you can't imagine doing anything else. Only do it if you already love it so much you will fucking bleed and shit and become a modern hermit for it. Only do it if you're prepared to be obscure, anti-social and exceptionally pedantic as a day and night job for most of your adult life. I guess ultimately, only do it if going through it itself is valuable to you.

But getting a degree in a technical subject - like dual majoring in hard science, doing applied mathematics or statistics with a machine learning component, or doing any flavour of engineering or operations research, actually will allow you to enter into more job markets at entry level. You can often get exploitative entry level positions using those skills (with below livable pay for 60-80 hours work weeks) by going to graduate job fairs.

Academic job networks are also very nepotism prone. you may end up with a decent entry level job if you're a good graduate and you happen upon the right connections.

Hi thewonder! A nice set of questions! I find in education there is an overemphasis on, "Pursue your passion," which tries to elevate college and your career as some greater purpose in your life. Very few people actually have this passion, so it leaves everybody else wondering if something is wrong with them. There is nothing wrong with you. Its completely normal.

I taught high school for about five years, and decided that the field wasn't for me any longer. I had the time and resources to get another degree, or pursue a different field. I took a few months looking into a few things. I can't tell you what will fit you. What I can tell you is to look for what does, and to understand that what you are doing is making a financial and long term investment that will pay off.

1. I knew myself at that point. I knew what I was good at, found annoying, and work that came easily to me.

If you have a work ethic issue, its likely because you haven't found something that does not mesh with your personality or natural talents. This is not about specific personal interests, but broad generalities about your personality. I found I enjoyed working in solitude, and figuring out solutions to problems. So I looked into law, electrician, and programming. If you're shy and don't like people, don't go into a people business. I also like autonomy and no one telling me exactly how something must be done. I also need variety, and don't like repetition.

So do the same for yourself. Within your hobbies, what about it meshes with your personality? Think of the things you've tried in life. What has annoyed you, what have you enjoyed, and are there some things that you've had a knack for? There are enough barriers in life and your job, don't add a personality conflict to it as well! It is not being cheap to pursue the things you are naturally good at. Its smart, efficient, and will help you turn a career into something positive.

2. My degree in software engineering was not about passion, it was so I could become employed, and make more money and happiness in my investment in the long run. Consider how much the job pays, how in demand the field is, and if the field will continue to have lots of options and need in the future. After looking at law, I realized there were a glut of lawyers, and many people were in massive debt from law school working law related jobs that didn't pay the debt off. I saw programming was in massive demand, payed extremely well, and was a sure bet for decades to come.

3. Evaluate your financial freedom, and priorities to other people in life. I did not have a wife or kid. I have never had any desire to pursue starting a family I had some savings I could go through. For my last two years once those savings ran out, I had the fortunate experience, and was willing to face the shame of living with my parents once again so I did not become tens of thousands of dollars in debt.

You need to find a balance to those three points for yourself. I can't answer those, and no one else can either. Try to find something that meshes a good result out of all three, and you'll likely be on your way to something successful.

As for grad school being expensive, yes. You can get loans. Grad school is a whole other upgrade to school work rigor. You will be expected to write papers with careful citations. You will be expected to go above and beyond what your writing was as an undergraduate student. An undergrad degree can be fun even if you're not heavily invested in it. A graduate degree is not.

It sounds like right now though, you need to take that time and evaluate those three points. I may be wrong, but it sounds like you're using the idea of grad school as a retreat and a hopeful refuge from not knowing what you want. The reality is, you're past the easy choices in life. Any path you choose from now on will be a sacrifice in something. You just have to figure out what sacrifice fits in with your life goals, and which don't.

I have no interest in hard science or Mathematics, though. I could develop an interest in something like Anthropology or Film Theory, but those are just same kind of gambits. I don't see what the point, when I don't really plan on having a family, and can live with fairly low expenses, of pursuing a career in something that I'm just not interested in. I also have Ethical qualms with just about everything. Were I to become an engineer, for instance, I wouldn't want to work for the military, which seems to be one of the better bets given that career path. You could try to bank on doing something for the Peace Corps or something, but they only really want people who are really dedicated to the profession. Then there's, like, some sort of power plant or something, but then I'd always wonder as to what sort of effect I was having on the environment. I'm thirty. I should've gone back to the unviersity a lot sooner, but, now, it just doesn't seem to make any sense to put any sort of effort into anything that I'm just not really going to care about. I'm most adept at political philosophy, but that path in life isn't really an option for me anymore.

Even having a degree is, even in Philosophy, is, at least, out of the service industry, or, at the very least, with a job as a barista, which I'm frankly quite offended that any person thinks that I am, at all, incapable of performing on account of not having worked at Starbucks at the age of eighteen or being friends with the owner of the establishment. In "Like a Rolling Stone", Bob Dylan says that "when you ain't got nothing, you got nothing to lose". Seeing that I have no future, I don't see why I shouldn't just study Philosophy. I'm just curious about whether or not I can get loans to pay for grad school. Will I score the entire Federal loan of $20,500 per year, because I will probably need for that loan to pay for all of it?

As for grad school being expensive, yes. You can get loans. Grad school is a whole other upgrade to school work rigor. You will be expected to write papers with careful citations. You will be expected to go above and beyond what your writing was as an undergraduate student. An undergrad degree can be fun even if you're not heavily invested in it. A graduate degree is not.

It sounds like right now though, you need to take that time and evaluate those three points. I may be wrong, but it sounds like you're using the idea of grad school as a retreat and a hopeful refuge from not knowing what you want. The reality is, you're past the easy choices in life. Any path you choose from now on will be a sacrifice in something. You just have to figure out what sacrifice fits in with your life goals, and which don't. — Philosophim

You have given some good advice, which I do thank you for. It's difficult for me to come up with an ideal work environment, though, as I've never been in one that there was really anything of that I enjoyed. I guess that I could be less pessimistic, though, and take some time to think about it eventually.

You're not entirely wrong. Since the Film school closed, being the only Film school that I could afford to go to, I'm kind of at a loss for what to do in life. I play music, but I'm not good enough at it to make any sort of career out of it. The only other interest that I have is Philosophy. Going to grad school is just kind of a way to stave off having given up on ever experiencing life in any sort of way that I had wanted to by devoting myself to some sort of career path. I actually kind of like the idea of being challenged to actually write, though. It's difficult for me to write anything on my own, and I do feel like, with a bit of motivation, I could actually create something that, at least, some people would think is somehow valuable. I realize that it's kind of a limited profession, but I feel like there's bound to be some sort of strange occupation that I could discover that'd pay well enough for me to afford living kind of as I should like to. In the future that I imagine, I'd like to live in either an A-frame or eco-house and have an electric car, but I can settle for living in an around one-hundred and twenty thousand dollar house and having a used economy car. As I don't really plan on having a family, I don't expect to have too many other expenses. I feel like there's bound to be something for me to do with a Doctorate in Philosophy that can afford just that.

A sixty to one hundred thousand dollar loan for a philosophy degree is a financial death sentence.

If you are trying to contribute to philosophy however, be warned. In my experience, academic philosophy is an old and set in its ways institution. And like any old institution, it has its red tape, and a surprisingly closed mindedness. — Philosophim

That was my experience too.

The old codgers don't seem to realise that philosophy is a paradigm and that academic philosophy is long overdue for a paradigm shift.

Well, looking at my prospect right now, the best job that I could take, but wouldn't, because I suspect for it to be as exploitative and terrible as has been fictionalized, is as a dockworker for sixteen dollars an hour. I don't think that I could work full-time, and, so, with a part-time gig, that's around twenty-five thousand dollars a year, which is still under the average tuition for most grad schools. I'll probably make twleve dollars an hour, work slightly less than that, make slightly over half of that, and will need the entire federal loan to pay for grad school. I live at home. Let's say that I still do. Let's say that I only spend ten-thousand dollars in a year. Let's say that I get into a school where tuition is only twenty-five thousand dollars a year. I'd still need, at least, forty thousand dollars in loans and I'd be working a day shy of full-time on the docks. How well will I, then, do in grad school? I would have a degree, but an entry level data entry job is still just thirty-thousand dollars a year, and, so, kind of the same, just less stressful, as working anywhere else, since I would be working part-time. It seems like, in order to succeed, I just don't have any other options.

You can still get a mortgage for a house with student loan debt, so long that you make the loan payments. If I can find something that I like doing and pay them off within twenty-five years, what's it to me? I'd pay them off sooner if I could, but, though I do intend to give it all my best effort, I'm not really banking on landing a high-paying job.

It's kind of a gamble, but ultimately manageable and, seeing that I do really care about Philosophy, have no other interests, really, and not too many other prospects, I don't see why I shouldn't just take it. Besides, there's also that people will occasionally refer to me as "doctor".

In any case, if academia for philosophy is that bad I might switch to psychology. It's not a bad choice and fits in pretty well with my line of interest. — Shawn

Disclaimer : I have no formal training in Philosophy or Psychology. I'm mostly self-taught and non-academic. So, caveat emptor. Philosophy is a good hobby for my old age, but may be a "bad choice" for a young professional.

If Philosophy-in-general is your thing though, then go for it. But academic philosophers are typically not as highly regarded now as in the past, especially by "hard" scientists. However, on the bright side, I view the field of Psychology to be a philosophical endeavor that is narrowly focused on the human mind & behavior. Socrates & Plato were mostly concerned with the mysterious workings of the mind, and even Aristotle divided his encyclopedia of current knowledge into Physics (physical science) and Metaphysics (mental science).

However, Psychology doesn't usually qualify as an empirical science, except insofar as it gets proven positive results in treating human mental suffering. That's why B. F. Skinner's Behaviorism was an attempt to turn away from unprovable Freudian & Jungian philosophical & mythical approaches, and toward more empirical laboratory methods. It did gain some novel insights into the motives of lab rats, but the more recent Cognitive Behavioral Therapy seems to be closer to an effective "hard" science for human traumas. Even so, there are lots of Self-Help Gurus out there who mix religious & pop-psychology terminology in their "secrets of success" sermons. So, you'll have lots of competition in that arena.

Back to the "bright side" though : philosophical explorations into Consciousness Studies seem to be a new, rapidly evolving, highly interdisciplinary field that includes psychology, philosophy, physics, sociology, and religion. If that kind of application of philosophical thinking interests you, then you may get more academic (status) and employment respect (money), because it is currently a "hot topic". Many of the threads on this forum are discussions of concepts related to Consciousness. And Neuroscience is beginning to dig-up some hard data upon which to base your philosophical theories. Maybe you can discover some Wisdom in the lab, to supplement your Data. :smile:


Psychology Careers : https://www.psychologydegree411.com/careers/

PS__In case the current strained relationship between Science and Philosophy bothers you, here's an article by Carlo Rovelli, a theoretical physicist working in the cutting edge field of Loop Quantum Gravity. Like it or not, all scientific hypotheses and theories begin as philosophical speculations, in search of evidence and falsifiability.

Physics Needs Philosophy : https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/physics-needs-philosophy-philosophy-needs-physics/

As someone with a philosophy degree, I strongly recommend against getting one. Also, in general regarding financial planning, be very aware of the cost of housing where you intend to live. I long ago gave up all of my fancy dreams of being an important rich or famous person and decided to just focus on getting an ordinary humble life together with a house and a wife and all that. And now I’m approaching 40 and ever just owning a house still looks like it may be a pipe dream. I got through college debt-free, never made below the median income in my life, and for most of the past decade have been making more than twice that, saving between a quarter and half of my income toward a down payment, and I still live in a tiny trailer on rented land.

If I could advise my past self just entering college, it would be to double-major in computer science alongside philosophy and then go into AI for Apple or Google or someone. And that’s only because I had a full ride because my parents are poor and my test scores were off the charts. If I had had to borrow money, I’d advise my past self to just do the CS major and study philosophy for free as an extracurricular activity.

Eh, I see everyone's point, but I'm probably just going to go through with it and suffer the consequences.

I know that feeling, and it makes me sad and anxious on your behalf to imagine being in such a position, but it's your life and I'm just some rando on the internet, so I guess you gotta do you.

But still I would really, really recommend, if you have to pay for education, to get trained in some useful job skill, and then study things that are interesting to you on the side for free. It's not that a professional philosophical education is of no value, it's just not so valuable as to be worth a lifetime of poverty and regret.

My first degree was actually in multimedia arts, and I even regret that I focused my time in that program perfecting skills I already had -- 2D still design, basically -- instead of learning new skills like motion graphics, CAD/CAM, and 3D animation, since those are the things that the jobs I'm searching through now all really want.

And if I had done computer science instead of multimedia arts, man, I could be making like twice what I have been.

Something I wish had existed back then (if it didn't; nobody told me about it in any case), which I can't recommend enough now, is the Bureau of Labor Statistics' Occupational Outlook Handbook:

https://www.bls.gov/ooh/

Seeing that I have no future, I don't see why I shouldn't just study Philosophy. — thewonder

Sorry, but this sounds like the worst possible reason for enrolling in graduate school. Probably guaranteeing dropping out.

Why not join the military and let them pay all expenses for career education? I got paid to go to school and become a professional meteorologist, and a friend became a lawyer and is now a district attorney, another became a physician.

But I bet you have a low opinion of the military! :smirk:

I'll keep that in mind in the future, but I feel like people couldn't really understand what it is that I mean about all of this. I'm not the sort of person who can just settle for a career. It's not within my mental faculties to be capable of doing so. Take it how you will, but, there's not really too much else for me to do.

To be honest, I don't really think that this forum thinks too much of me. Kind of a lot of people don't, and, so, it doesn't surprise me. It's one of the better online forums, but it's also kind of just another place where I feel like kind of outcast. I just sort of toss things out there because of that. If I wanted to be cruel, you'd understand that I am rather intelligent. I know that you're trying to be nice, but it is kind of disheartening to be told to study Computer Science and of the Bureau of Labor Statistics' Occupational Handbook. It's because you don't think that I'll make it as a philosopher, which is what everyone in this field that I've met thinks. I don't mean this about you, but I've known kind of a lot of intellectually domineering men in my life. It results in that I act kind of strangely around intellectuals. The informal class that arises from the whole thing leads me to kind of distrustful of people. I feel like if I got myself to moreso with it, though, I could something or another. Like I said, I don't really have any other interests.

Why not join the military and let them pay all expenses for career education? I got paid to go to school and become a professional meteorologist, and a friend became a lawyer and is now a district attorney, another became a physician. — jgill

I'm openly an Anarcho-Pacifist, which means I can't even actually join the military, even though I have sort of thought about it in the past. What I had really thought was that I could somehow be sent to Kurdistan or do some sort of U.N. type of thing with them, but, quickly realized that that wasn't, at all, tenable.

I don't intend on dropping out. It'll come easy enough when it comes. Anyways, I think that I've diverted this thread for long enough from the original poster, and would like to just move on. Apologies or whatever.

thewonder, after seeing your replies and your reasons, I don't think this is a real plan. What you're doing is having a 30 year life crisis. I'm nearing 40 now, and myself and a lot of my friends went through it. This is the time when you realize youth is beginning to leave you, and you have that last chance to make a future for yourself before its too late. There is no shame in it, and many of us who have gone through our early 30's know the feeling.

You sound a little depressed, and want to make a meaningful change in your life. Making a meaningful change in your life is wonderful, but it should be done with a solid goal and plan, especially as we age. We're not 20 anymore when we can do whatever we want, consequences to the wind. I would suggest before you take out thousands in loans, take a few hundred out and get some counceling. You seem to indicate you feel like you have no other interests or hobbies in life. That sounds like you're lost, and is a great time to connect with other people to help find yourself. An advanced degree in philosophy is not going to fix your feelings. You must first fix your feelings, and then when you're centered and ready, see if you still want to pursue a degree in higher education at this stage in your life.

I've suffered from depression myself, so I'm reading a bit of myself in you. So this comes from personal experience with care to help bring you up, not as a means to bring you down.

To be honest, I don't really think that this forum thinks too much of me. Kind of a lot of people don't, and, so, it doesn't surprise me. It's one of the better online forums, but it's also kind of just another place where I feel like kind of outcast. — thewonder

I'm just one person, but for my part I think you've been one of the nicer new additions to this forum. I also have a lot of apprehensive feelings toward the community here in general; I don't get the impression that this is a safe and welcoming place where people care about other people's feelings. It's just... the least bad options, as far as philosophical discussion, that I've found yet.

I know that you're trying to be nice, but it is kind of disheartening to be told to study Computer Science and of the Bureau of Labor Statistics' Occupational Handbook. — thewonder

I was trying to be careful to clarify that that's the advice that I would have given to myself in the past. You're both a different person and it's now a different time, so I don't know that CS would be right for you or as right for now as it was then. The OOH is what I wish I had known of back then so that I could find out that CS would have been better for me than the multimedia arts degree I got at first. (I went back for philosophy later when I wanted to be a school teacher, after my graphic design career failed to launch -- which I also ended up not doing). I'm just suggesting it as a resource to see what the various prospects are of different paths you might be considering, because back when, I had no idea that different careers had such different financial prospects. (I thought artist or programmer would both be about the same, being on the same tier above fry cook or barista but below doctor or lawyer. I had no idea that the gap between their financial prospects was so huge, until it was took late to go back).

It's because you don't think that I'll make it as a philosopher, which is what everyone in this field that I've met thinks. — thewonder

I sure don't think that about you, but I share your feeling that other people think that about me, too.

I'm not sure if you were here long enough ago, but there was kind of a big to-do earlier this year when I wanted to get constructive criticism on the philosophy book I'd just finished writing, and... was sorely disappointed in the quality of feedback I got.

I'm not a professional philosopher, and I'm ashamed of that fact. I feel like I'm not allowed to try to forward new ideas unless I've got a PhD and can get published in a professional journal. But as others have explained in this thread, by the time I got to the point that I had the credit and reputation to do so, I would probably have been bogged down for many, many years with pointless drudgery helping to forward someone else's agenda.

There doesn't seem to be anything in-between the bottom-dwellers of uneducated internet philosophy, and that desiccated inaccessible realm of professional academic philosophy. And that non-existent middle is where I feel like I have to fit, so... I'm laypeople trash to the professionals, and an arrogant self-centered narcissist to the internet, because I want to do more than be a rando on the internet, but the professional options that are available aren't really any more appealing. If they were free, I'd still do them, but they're not worth sacrificing what's left of my life for.

I feel like I'm not allowed to try to forward new ideas unless I've got a PhD and can get published in a professional journal. — Pfhorrest

Not only is it common to feel like one is not allowed... they are actually not. I'm a prima facie example. Academic philosophy still works from a piss poor understanding of what human thought and belief is, what it consists of, and how it emerges and subsists in the world. The inevitable consequences of that basic rudimentary misunderstanding are strewn throughout philosophy including each and every subtopic. Not only that, but as a result of current geopolitical politics being based upon philosophy proper in many ways, and philosophy proper being sorely mistaken about human thought and belief, and given that human thought and belief is precisely what politics is... the legitimization of thought and belief about what we ought or ought not do... well...

Well, I appreciate the sympathy, but I haven't even applied for a graduate program as of yet or anything. I have two years of a Liberal Arts degree completed, though I haven't taken too many Philosophy courses as of yet, as I was enrolled at a community college. I don't really have any other interests, though, and every other Liberal Arts career is just kind of the same gambit. It doesn't seem like it makes any sense to do anything other than study Philosophy. Why should I switch my major to something like English when it's just exactly the same way and I haven't already cultivated an interest in something like that?

To plan for the future, though, just getting a Bachelor's degree in Philosophy is kind of pointless. It'll land me slightly better jobs, but I just don't see why I shouldn't just go all of the way through with the higher education when there isn't really anything else for me to do. I feel like I am capable of making it all of the way through, it's really just about motivation.

I've been going through a crisis for ages, but, you are right that studying a Philosophy is supposed to be some sort of way for me to feel like I've done something in life or whatever. I guess that I just feel like that having done something will lead to some sort of having done something and that it is just what to do to make myself feel better.


I actually like you quite a bit as well. I don't necessarily feel like I generate the greatest content, though.

I will probably actually look into it at some point, but I kind of doubt that all that much will change.

Congrats on writing an entire book! I don't think that I've ever been able to finish an essay that was over six or seven pages long. You could always self-publish if you can't find someone to publish it for you. There's a lot of independent publishing companies nowadays, but, I feel like self-publishing will start to become more popular now, especially since not everyone reads books that are actually printed anymore.

The tiers exist and don't exist. It's sort of like Noise music or something. I once saw this teenager play a two-minute long set where he just kind of spazzed out on my ex-bandmate's snare drum in five to fifteen second bursts. In a way, what he had done was not even really art, and, in a way, I had thought that he had reduced the genre to a pure abstract line. I don't mean to draw a comparison to you, of course, but my point is that, while there's an element of that there is a difference between John Cage and any opening act at an Industrial show with a grand total of three audience members, the categorizations of Art as being of any sort of elevated status really is somewhat illusory. Perhaps I'm not being clear, but I think that Philosophy is kind of the same way.

What I mean, I guess, is that you shouldn't let it get to you. I let it get to me as well, but, in so far that you can, you just shouldn't let it get to you. Even the Doctorate is a symbol of status that only really means so much.

Alas, though, like I said, I feel like I've taken too much away from the original poster and, as I probably just can't be talked of my plans as of right now, don't see too much of a point in going on like this. I apologize for kind of bleating about it all and thank everyone for the advice, even if it isn't too likely that I'll take it.

Congrats on writing an entire book! I don't think that I've ever been able to finish an essay that was over six or seven pages long. You could always self-publish if you can't find someone to publish it for you. There's a lot of independent publishing companies nowadays, but, I feel like self-publishing will start to become more popular now, especially since not everyone reads books that are actually printed anymore. — thewonder

Thanks! I have already self-published, inasmuch as putting something on the web counts as self-publishing (link in my profile if you're interested), but I don't think it's likely that I will try to do any kind of for-profit publishing, since I've yet to confirm that a single person has actually read the whole thing even for free, so I really doubt anybody at all would ever pay to read it.

This is incredible. I can't believe that you created all of this. I don't know that I will read it in its entirety, but I'll probably leaf through it a bit later. I'll be leaving probably tomorrow to begin preparing for the semester and, so, can't say that I'll be much in the way of feedback, but this is pretty cool to find out about.

Thanks a bunch :) It makes me feel really good to hear things like that.

I read about half of it tonight Pfhorrest. Really nice write up of your personal philosophical beliefs. You actually wrote something, where many would not.

The Peace Corps, maybe? Or some other overseas volunteer services. Sometimes those experiences can be very gratifying and clarifying.

Thank you too. :-)

That'd be something, but they don't really want Philosophy majors. Anyways, I'm leaving this forum to prepare for the semester, anyways, so, see you all whenever.

Anyway, what should I expect entering into the field of philosophy? — Shawn

That you won't find a job upon graduation. If you are borrowing money to fund your education, this could become a significant problem for decades to come. Law school might be a related opportunity which could address this issue.

Also, philosophy and money don't really mix too well. Say you reach the level of professor and have 3 kids you wish to get in to college, and a spouse who depends upon your income etc. How do you then publicly say or write anything which is not approved by the group consensus of the academic community you are a part of?

As just one example, academia is currently obsessed with diversity. If you were to present a counter argument, because that is what real philosophers are supposed to do, you could soon find yourself in deep career trouble, even if you clearly state that you are merely presenting an argument.

Not trying to rain on your parade, and please know, my own career confusion was profound beyond description. So I can relate. But philosophy as a business? Gotta vote no on that one.

Higher education is under considerable pressure from several different directions. Even before the pandemic hit the public attitude was shifting away from the requirement or even advisability of a college degree. Now, with student enrollment dropping, the financial crunch is enormous, and some institutions may fold. Those that remain must, and probably should, become heavily involved with anti-racism efforts, which may lead to internal conflicts. And then, who wants to pay full tuition at an elite school like Harvard only to be stuck in front of a computer screen off campus?

Quite a few recent PhDs find themselves cobbling together a meager living by adjuncting with several institutions. And those who are fortunate enough to gain tenure may find themselves in academic rat races to publish and secure external funding. The environment within an academic discipline can become toxic at times, with pressures to beat a colleague to a new result encouraging ignoble behavior and animosities. But if one really loves doing original research these impediments are manageable. And if you think you have great new ideas, these must be evaluated by experts in an academic environment with one's peers. Not on internet forums.

If you want to make philosophy (or any other academic discipline) a career, you'd better really love it and be prepared to make the sacrifices required!